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F9 To Ground Planes, Cut Staff This Fall  
User currently offlineTripleboom From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 278 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11968 times:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new...upt-frontier-cuts-planes-capacity/

Should be an interesting next couple of weeks on Tower Road.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11958 times:

Giving up gates is the biggest risk

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11961 times:

Oh boy, this is not good. Are they going to ground the two new 320's?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2693 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11895 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Are they going to ground the two new 320's?

I highly, highly doubt it. They need the best economics they can get right now (who doesn't?), and the A320 offers that - especially in slot restricted markets like SNA and DCA.


User currently offlineTripleboom From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 278 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11890 times:

From what I understand it will be 7 A319s sold not grounded as the article says.

User currently offlineMiaami From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 635 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11889 times:

how many planes total do they have now?

User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 547 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11890 times:

I thought F9 just reaffirmed all their leases not too long ago. It seems the plan is rapidly changing.

User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2693 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11866 times:



Quoting Tripleboom (Reply 4):
From what I understand it will be 7 A319s sold not grounded as the article says.

You thinking that they're selling them and then leasing back? Since they just reaffirmed leases, as Flyingcat mentioned, would this be plausible? A nice cash infusion for sure.


User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11838 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
It seems the plan is rapidly changing.

I think this was the plan all along.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11837 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2):
Are they going to ground the two new 320's?

I would doubt it unless they lack routes (like DCA) where they can use the extra seats at relatively limited marginal operating cost.

I'm a bit surprised that they'd be dropping only seven aircraft of 58 while decreasing capacity by a somewhat greater percentage -- but discontinuing the red-eyes and perhaps reducing flying on Tuesdays and Wednesdays might account for capacity cuts that are deeper than the decrease in fleet size.

I honestly was expecting deeper cuts come fall, so perhaps it's a good sign that they're "only" cutting capacity by 17%. I do hope the affected employees will find other opportunities quickly.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11783 times:

Where is Mariner when we need him? I thought F9 is honoring the lease terms on all of their leased aircraft.... Hmmm...


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4524 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11712 times:

This is better news than what I dreaded...a complete shutdown in fall.

I hope they can shrink themselves into profitability but history shows that it isn't always successful. I'm pulling for them though, I hope they make it and eventually rehire those they have to lay off.  Sad


User currently offlineKingCavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1314 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11556 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
I thought F9 is honoring the lease terms on all of their leased aircraft....

Which makes me think they are, and the planes leaving are Frontier-owned aircraft.



Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11103 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 10):
Where is Mariner when we need him? I thought F9 is honoring the lease terms on all of their leased aircraft.... Hmmm...

Hmmmm, indeed.

Mariner had been a tad busy this week with his non-a.net life, which is getting slightly out of hand.  Smile

This was all discussed in another thread a couple of weeks ago. Frontier organized to retain the full fleet for the summer, but, at that time, also organized the ability to ground up to 20 aircraft at the end of summer.

The full fleet was necessary for the full summer flying, but we also knew there was the possibility that there would be additional reductions in capacity, and thus fleet, come Fall, when traffic falls.

Everyone's a'doing it.

But like others, I am surprised and intrigued that they are only grounding 7 aircraft.

What intrigues me most - now - is the Lynx schedule for Fall. I haven't had a chance to study it yet (my real life intruding again), but I am ready for a couple of surprises.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineB6fll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10988 times:

Well we know who will end up getting those gates!

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10897 times:
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Quoting B6fll (Reply 14):
Well we know who will end up getting those gates!

Why would they want to split between two terminals?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFrontierflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 216 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10882 times:



Quoting B6fll (Reply 14):

Airtran, Midwest are moving from C to A right?


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26137 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10776 times:

I posted in a previous Frontier thread, but yes as part of their Ch11 process, while indeed affirming all outstanding aircraft agreements, it reached a seperate side agreement with 12 lendors and lessors covering 21 aircraft, engines and spares allowing them to walk away come September 2nd if they wish.

The aircraft covered by this agreement are as follows.

A318s
802-803

A319
907, 910, 915, 913, 916, 943, 948

A320
201-202

Q400s
501-510



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7683 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10587 times:



Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
I honestly was expecting deeper cuts come fall, so perhaps it's a good sign that they're "only" cutting capacity by 17%.

It's a lot for an airline the size of F9. AA can cut 20% and still serve the major city O&Ds to nearly everywhere with morning, noon, and evening frequencies. Frontier runs such thin frequency to begin with, it will hurt their ability to even offer roundtrip connections. Anyway, it's a painful cut.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
I posted in a previous Frontier thread, but yes as part of their Ch11 process, while indeed affirming all outstanding aircraft agreements, it reached a seperate side agreement with 12 lendors and lessors covering 21 aircraft, engines and spares allowing them to walk away come September 2nd if they wish.

...

Q400s
501-510

There was no mention of Lynx. I wonder if that means they chose to keep the aircraft after negotiating this exit agreement on all the Lynx planes just a few weeks ago.

Another thought...they said recently they were going to build frequency and close markets that couldn't support more than 1 flight. Since they are cutting so much and yet only closing SDF (are there more we don't know about?), a lot of stations are going to fall to 1 or 2 trips. That kind of frequency level is going to drive CASM up since they said eliminating low frequency stations would drive CASM down.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10271 times:
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At the risk of going off-topic, the breath and depth of the present airline crisis continues to surprise me. The cuts being demanded by TPG at Midwest must be a bitter pill for those who saw TPG as some kind of salvation:

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=766272

I don't think we've seen the last of the worst yet, but I hope we are approaching the bottom.

But for an accident of scheduling some years ago, I might very well have the same affection for Midwest as I have for Frontier - it is a fine airline.

I guess I'm not so concerned about the majors - the so-called legacy carriers - but it is distressing to see so many airlines in such straits.

I'm used to it in my biz - shows close all the time. There are tears, lots of tears and we move on.

But we are in uncharted waters with the airlines, and no one can foresee the outcome. We can only hope (or I can) that the old saying is true - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 9715 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 15):
Why would they want to split between two terminals?

I am assuming "they" are Southwest.

Its already being done in two other locations where gate space is needed.

Southwest currently uses gates in two different concourses in Las Vegas and Philadelphia.

In Las Vegas, this can mean a lengthy walk or a bus ride between concourses although I believe a "connector" is being built to link the two concourses.

In Philadelphia, this can mean a bit of a walk and being required to go through security again.

Neither arrangement is "idea" however it does show that Southwest would not be against using gates that are a train-ride away in two different concourses if the gates were needed that badly.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9571 times:
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Quoting N702ML (Reply 20):
I am assuming "they" are Southwest.

I am assuming that, too.

The question is still - why would they split terminals if they can get the gates they want in one terminal?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDaCubbyBearBar From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9367 times:

Speaking of Las Vegas, I was just looking to book F9 for a LAS-DEN r/t to go see a Broncos' game in October, and it appears that F9 has reduced DEN-LAS from 9 r/t daily down to 6. That is a 33% cut in flights, not sure about seats as LAS sees all the Airbus models on F9.


Go Cubs Go Hey Chicago whaddya say the Cubs are gonna win today
User currently offlineBoslax From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8958 times:

There would be no need for Southwest to split operations at Denver. If Frontier gives back gates on A, the Airport would work with carriers on C and instead move them to the freed up gates on A, and thus keep Southwest on C with the additional gates.

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4615 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 8392 times:

F9 DEN-SJO will be temporarily suspended from August 17th till December 19th.
Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
25 Stapleton : The Denver Post is saying Jackson Hole service will eliminated until next summer along with Anchorage and Vancouver.
26 PHLBOS : That will be changing sometime next year when the new D-E Terminal (which will eliminate the need to go through security again one one changes termin
27 Tripleboom : That's correct. Service to JAC will go seasonal on September 9th.[Edited 2008-06-26 10:36:25]
28 ScottB : I don't really agree with that, especially when you consider that Frontier grew by 16% in ASM's between the last three months of 2006 and 2007. Cutti
29 PanAm330 : Summer seasonal? Weird. One would think they'd want the ski traffic from Jan-Mar.
30 KingCavalier : I heard it would put Frontier back to its level in late 2005.
31 AirframeAS : I hope 940 isn't one of them! I thought about that as well. Would F9 still be in the state as it is now if they have not started up with Lynx?? We wi
32 LAXintl : In the first 10-20 years of ownership there really is not a significant difference in planes ownership cost between owning or leasing. One is basical
33 ScottB : Even if it is, in the U.S. airline industry, cash is going to be king. Higher operating costs in 2010 won't matter if you can't make it through 2008.
34 N702ML : My point was simply that in a WORST CASE SCENERIO....Southwest has shown it is not opposed to running operations out of two different areas of an air
35 Enilria : I don't know if you agree, but they should have taken the FL deal and probably ultimately will have to. I expect DL/NW to sell them. The big show of
36 Mariner : Certainly, I agree. I think the basic thinking was ABA - Anyone But Airtran. But TPG is the master now and I doubt that Airtran is interested. I don'
37 Post contains links ScottB : The timing today really is a coincidence unless Frontier chose to make its announcement yesterday in anticipation of Southwest announcing its fall/wi
38 Enilria : The didn't have to announce the new DEN flights today just because they did the new schedule load. If you look over the last few months they have oft
39 KingCavalier : We have to assume that there will be station closures, not just frequency reductions.
40 Enilria : You would think, but they only mentioned SDF and some seasonal stuff in the release. If I have the time I'll check through the OAG database tonight a
41 Stapleton : The schedules are in the OAG. Really doesn't look too bad overall.
42 Mariner : As long as I have been aware of Frontier there has been an internal schizophrenia as to what airline they should be. There were always two almost even
43 Enilria : BTW, I didn't notice all the frequency changes WN announced today in DEN. That is huge. 20 net new flights! At this rate they will be bigger than F9 b
44 Rdwelch : The investment didn't payoff a the rate that was expected due to the delay in the operational start up. However, the cost benefit in the long run wit
45 Mariner : And the problem with that is - ? mariner
46 Post contains links ScottB : If you look historically, they typically announce the new flights on the same day they load the schedule. They will occasionally pre-announce, but th
47 ADent : WN will be at 115 flights and F9 at 165 with the latest announcements. WN sure seems to going for the jugular of the incumbents at DIA (KDEN).
48 Enilria : I'm not saying anybody can't compete. I'm saying more capacity is bad for RASM. That's a central truth in the airline business that plays out over an
49 Mariner : Frontier was #3 (or even #4) when I first became aware of them, and bought shares in them. I really don't see the problem or why this is an issue. ma
50 Incitatus : With all due respect, in the airline business size matters. Especially in adversity, which is the situation now. I think Frontier is/was a smart busi
51 KingCavalier : If Southwest regards Frontier as a "non-player" then what's the point? Why would they bother? I doubt Southwest considers any other airline as a non-
52 Incitatus : That is not the way businesses are run. Businesses are run for profit maximization. In the case of airlines, much more true because profits are harde
53 KingCavalier : You are talking about having a monopoly? Two businesses can't be successful or win as you say? One must lose?
54 Enilria : MONTREAL, June 27 /CNW Telbec/ - Air Canada President and Chief Executive Officer, Montie Brewer, today announced the retirement of Rob Reid, the airl
55 F9Animal : How do you come to that conclusion? Size has nothing to do with it. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, especially right now. AA is hurting ve
56 Enilria : Actually when is the last time a U.S. airline with over $4 billion in revenue liquidated? I'm guessing it is Eastern or maybe Pan Am. That was 16 yea
57 Petteri : It is more accurate to say that the price of oil (and Frontier's lack of hedges) are allowing WN to strengthen it's position "against" Frontier at th
58 Enilria : Even without hedges Southwest is a HUGE airline many times the size of F9. That would still afford them the chance to mess with smaller competitors,
59 Mariner : Last summer - with Southwest at DEN and oil at $70 - Frontier made a profit that was double the estimates. The variable is the price of oil. mariner
60 AirFrnt : Already done. I dropped off my mother in law at the Airport yesterday, and saw a 717 pulling into A concourse (the notice of which firmly established
61 Jetdeltamsy : I would say running out of cash would be the biggest risk.
62 F9Animal : Well said. Menke and the employees are doing everything they can to keep airborne. Menke could have easily folded F9 the day they filed bankruptcy. H
63 Enilria : Southwest is at least twice as big in Denver since then, maybe 3 times as big. That isn't a significant change since then? Somebody ought to tell WN
64 AirportGuy1971 : Southwest isn't having the effect you attribute to F9 in Denver. Oil is. I doubt my telling them this would surprise them. I'm pretty sure the condit
65 Mariner : And - ? Why? Southwest is achieving all they want at DEN - with Frontier still there. mariner
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