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United Drops SFO-NGO/TPE, LAX-FRA  
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25841 posts, RR: 50
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12891 times:

The fall internations cuts are firming up.

SFO-TPE is discontinued eff 9/1, however TPE service goes back to operating via NRT as follows.
UA853 NRT-TPE 1825-2115 777
UA852 TPE-NRT 1045-1455 777

SFO-NGO discontinued 10/25

LAX-FRA discontinued 10/25 (however rumored back for summer '09)

Additionaly there will be bunch of equipment sizing changes in several markets including both IAD and ORD-PEK become 777s while some markets such as ORD-NRT currently double daily with 777s, will revert to single daily flight on a 744.

[Edited 2008-06-25 20:00:13]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12882 times:

Not too surprising. Although i would have put money on SFO ICN going away.

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12811 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
SFO-TPE is discontinued eff 9/1, however TPE service goes back to operating via NRT as follows.
UA853 NRT-TPE 1825-2115 777
UA852 TPE-NRT 1045-1455 777

SFO-NGO discontinued 10/25

Interesting but sad developments..

United Airlines was the only US airline to link the USA to Taiwan nonstop in recent years, and the only US airline to link the USA West Coast to Nagoya nonstop. Past attempts by America West, Continental, Delta, and American Airlines at Nagoya didn't work. This is advantage Northwest Airlines. What I question is from my understanding United Airlines is out of slots at Narita, where will the slot to operate NRT-TPE come from?

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
LAX-FRA discontinued 10/25
Not to much of a shock, but I am starting to wonder how bad the cuts overall are going to be with United Airlines in the coming months. LAX-FRA is a traditionally strong route for Lufthansa. Air India is the only airline to serve the route in addition to Lufthansa. If I am not mistaken LAX-FRA has also been flown by DL/PA, and NZ in the past. I guess this would feed into the theory that US airlines have a hard time making West Coast to Europe flights work outside of the London market.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Additionaly there will be bunch of equipment sizing changes in several markets including both IAD and ORD-PEK become 777s while some markets such as ORD-NRT currently double daily with 777s, will revert to single daily flight on a 744

So now that we see the above 3 cuts made to the United Airlines Trans-Pac network. What will United Airlines being doing with these 6 or so 777-200's that operate these routes? Will they be returned to the lessor, will they be stored, or will they be sold if they are owned?

Taking into account the above statement I can see that NRT-TPE can be utilized using the slot for the 2nd ORD-NRT service. What I am now beginning to wonder is with the downsizing of ORD-PEK/IAD-PEK, how bad has yield and LF been on these routes. When we are talking about going from a daily 747-400(347 pax) to a daily 777-200(269 pax), that is a loss of approximately 78 pax per day on each route x 2 routes, equals a loss of 156 pax per day to the China market. When looking at going from 2 777 for ORD-NRT to 1 744 you have a loss of 191 pax.

Something tells me there is more to come and that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The other day I was told another rumor, (I had brushed it off, but now I am seriously thinking twice), that being United Airlines was going to consolidate its Australian services at SFO, and run what was the LAX-SYD flight from SFO as an SFO-MEL service. Instead Air New Zealand would resume LAX-SYD nonstop service, and United Airlines would codeshare the route. In conjunction I was told that United Airlines LAX-LHR could end up being run by Lufthansa (aircraft unknown).

Can United Airlines be hurting this bad to the Pacific and Atlantic markets?

[Edited 2008-06-25 20:18:57]

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33083 posts, RR: 71
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12789 times:

So after that rush of new Nagoya service to the U.S. following the opening of the new airport, NGO is once again where they started from. Too bad.


a.
User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12767 times:

I guess they need to find a few 777s for the DXB and DME runs.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
ORD-NRT currently double daily with 777s, will revert to single daily flight on a 744.

Quick request for clarification. Was there some time in the recent past when it was only one 747 per day from ORD? I thought that before the 2x777s it always was 747+777.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineAmwest2United From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 409 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12763 times:
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Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 2):
So now that we see the above 3 cuts made to the United Airlines Trans-Pac network. What will United Airlines being doing with these 6 or so 777-200's that operate these routes? Will they be returned to the lessor, will they be stored, or will they be sold if they are owned?

They will cover IAD-DXB and IAD-DME and the parking of 6-747-400's by UA.

I guess thats my best guess!



Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12745 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 2):
What will United Airlines being doing with these 6 or so 777-200's that operate these routes?

They will operate downgraded flights for the 747's that will be returned. They announced previously that 6 747's will be retired

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2972 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12717 times:

Sad to hear about NGO getting dropped altogether. NGO is following the footsteps of KIX when it comes to long-haul flights.

Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 2):
What I question is from my understanding United Airlines is out of slots at Narita, where will the slot to operate NRT-TPE come from?

Well, if ORD-NRT is going to a single daily. Then they have a slot for the NRT-TPE.


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12701 times:



Quoting WestWing (Reply 4):
I guess they need to find a few 777s for the DXB and DME runs.

The 777 for the DXB trip is coming from the planned CAN trip not starting. They have been using it as a spare aircraft to get the overhaul started (or at least thats the latest rumor). The 767 for IAD DME comes from the IAD GRU flight that is being upgraded to a 777. Where that 777 was coming from...I am not sure

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineAirCop From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12653 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 2):
United Airlines was the only US airline to link the USA to Taiwan nonstop in recent years,

It re-started in June 07after a four year suspension and gone in Sept 08. Guess they couldn't compete against BR and CI.


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12623 times:



Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Guess they couldn't compete against BR and CI.

or more realistically chose not to at the market rates that BR and CI set

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12601 times:



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 8):
The 767 for IAD DME comes from the IAD GRU flight that is being upgraded to a 777.

I had incorrectly assumed DME was also a 777. It is indeed a 767. Thanks for the correction.



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12541 times:



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 10):
Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
Guess they couldn't compete against BR and CI.

or more realistically chose not to at the market rates that BR and CI set

-m

 thumbsup 

UnitedTristar,
you are correct...checking in all these folks coming off of CI,BR&KE onto a ual flight here i usually get to see the receipt as well...how these 3 carriers&the us carriers that have interline rates from MNL,SGN make any cash is beyond me....and have had more than a few ticket consolidators tell me the price on the receipt is not what the consolidator paid for that seat so the actual cost was less than what was printed



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineDc10s2hnl From New Zealand, joined Aug 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12458 times:

Was LAX-FRA planned to be a seasonal route all along?
If not, this didn't last long, especially since it only started around January!


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3126 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12399 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 2):
Something tells me there is more to come and that this is just the tip of the iceberg. The other day I was told another rumor, (I had brushed it off, but now I am seriously thinking twice), that being United Airlines was going to consolidate its Australian services at SFO, and run what was the LAX-SYD flight from SFO as an SFO-MEL service. Instead Air New Zealand would resume LAX-SYD nonstop service, and United Airlines would codeshare the route. In conjunction I was told that United Airlines LAX-LHR could end up being run by Lufthansa (aircraft unknown).

I wouldn't put any faith in a rumour involving Air New Zealand re-starting SYD-LAX direct but a couple points to note;

1. SFO-MEL would make sense but the primary reason that the UAL flights stop at SYD is that they just don't have the legs to make the MEL run economical. That was one of the principal reasons why QF bought the 744ER so it could have the extra lift out of LAX. So I doubt UAL would start SFO-MEL direct unless it has a counter for this.

2. UAL could codeshare with Air New Zealand for the LAX-LHR sector without LH needing to start flying it. Although if BMI is acquired by LH I think it'll be interesting to see the re-distribution of LHR slots amongst the likes of LH, UA, CO etc so maximise the potential use of them for both long haul and short haul flying.


User currently offlineAussieItaliano From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12375 times:

With all of these cuts, I am surprised IAD-FCO hasn't seen the axe yet.


LHR - The Capital of the World
User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 12318 times:



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 1):
Although i would have put money on SFO ICN going away.

If DL can make ICN work out of ATL then there is something terribly wrong with UA if they can't make it work out of SFO. It's sad to see the Pacific crown jewel get dismantled like this.



/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12303 times:



Quoting AussieItaliano (Reply 15):
With all of these cuts, I am surprised IAD-FCO hasn't seen the axe yet

Depending on what happens with Lufthansa/Air One, it will either stay, become seasonal, or transferred to Milan to feed of of Air Ones new buildup in that market. However, I thought that Rome was part of United Airlines "Capitol" strategy.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 6047 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12197 times:

Quoting Zone1 (Reply 16):
Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 1):
Although i would have put money on SFO ICN going away.

If DL can make ICN work out of ATL then there is something terribly wrong with UA if they can't make it work out of SFO. It's sad to see the Pacific crown jewel get dismantled like this.

SFO-ICN has been on again off again since almost day one, even at times when UA was profitable. It probably has a better chance ot sticking around this time due to the Asiana codeshare. While DL does carry some O/D traffic on ATL-ICN I would be willing to bet that the route works because of DLs alliance with Korean Air, without that I don't think there would be much of a call for ATL-ICN and you would probably see DL shift the route to JFK if anything.

Quoting Dc10s2hnl (Reply 13):
Was LAX-FRA planned to be a seasonal route all along?

No it was supposed to be year round form what I remember however if its an iffy route it makes since to cut it. UA and LH revenue share so whether its operated by LH or UA really makes no difference.

[Edited 2008-06-25 21:14:30]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineSpeedbird0125 From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 12095 times:



Quoting UnitedTristar (Reply 1):
Not too surprising. Although i would have put money on SFO ICN going away.

-m

I thought that ICN is one of UA's profitable market in Asia. How's UA doing on SFO-ICN route?


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 11978 times:



Quoting Zone1 (Reply 16):
If DL can make ICN work out of ATL then there is something terribly wrong with UA if they can't make it work out of SFO. It's sad to see the Pacific crown jewel get dismantled like this.

Youre being a bit dramatic. I wouldnt call losing two routes dismantleing a hub.

Also reguarding ATL vs. SFO-ICN, ATL has the DL feed. Alot of people go beyond ICN and ATL on that flight. Whereas all people going to ICN on UA are stopping there.

Sucks about LAX-FRA, but I have a feeling the whole LAX buildup by UA was to stave off DL. For a while DL wanted to build up LAX.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePlatinumfoota From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11686 times:



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 20):
Sucks about LAX-FRA, but I have a feeling the whole LAX buildup by UA was to stave off DL. For a while DL wanted to build up LAX.

Might have been but now UA is going to cut down LAX alot! Rumor has it by 09 the LAX "hub" could have as few as 60 flights a day. This after operating up to 120+ flights a day post 9/11.



Never forget United 93
User currently offlineAaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1539 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11537 times:



Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 21):
Might have been but now UA is going to cut down LAX alot! Rumor has it by 09 the LAX "hub" could have as few as 60 flights a day. This after operating up to 120+ flights a day post 9/11.

I've heard the initial UA - LAX cuts will reduce UA mainline to an eighty (80) flight schedule p/day effective Sept./Oct.



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1794 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11467 times:

So when is KIX-SFO going to be cut? I mean that route is a disaster and they've been changing equipments over and over again. Besides, UAL also dropped KIX-HNL.

So KIX-SFO coming soon seems to be a big yes?



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7707 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11376 times:



Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 23):

So when is KIX-SFO going to be cut? I mean that route is a disaster and they've been changing equipments over and over again. Besides, UAL also dropped KIX-HNL.

So KIX-SFO coming soon seems to be a big yes?

I dont know where that came from. Just because SFO-NGO didnt work out doesnt mean that SFO-KIX isnt going to. Sometimes that route is flown with a 744. HNL-KIX is a completely different market than SFO-KIX.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
25 Ktachiya : Yeah but it has been discussed numerous times that the market from KIX is not high yield either. Besides, KIX landing fees are ridiculous compared to
26 LAXintl : My use of 'revert' was wrong, meant it more to mean changes to then goes back to. Yes ORD-NRT has been double daily for a long time using 2 744s, 2 7
27 Aaron747 : It's their own damn fault for not promoting it enough. This metropolitan area has the highest disposable income in Japan, multiple multinational empl
28 UAL777UK : A shame to see the reductions, certainly I am not surprised by them ditching LAX-FRA, although I would be surprised if LAX-LHR was ditched. Its always
29 DeltaL1011man : Its a Sky hub to Sky hub. It would be hard for DL not to make it work.
30 GlobalDreams : Looks like DEN-LHR is getting the axe too.
31 DeltaL1011man : The didn't give it much time was it a 772 or a 763?
32 RampRat74 : I guess United will lose the Toyota contract out of NGO. This will have a trickle down affect on smaller routes out of SFO. SFO-SAT will probably lose
33 EXAAUADL : Well, if ORD-NRT is going from 2x to 1x there is your slot. The auto industry really must be helping DTW-NGO. Must not be much business traffic aside
34 GlobalDreams : 772
35 LAXintl : Indeed. Oct 25th.
36 Mcdu : No not out of slots at NRT. In fact they just stopped flying NRT-TPE recently and that slot is available along with the second daily ORD NRT slot. Do
37 Centrair : We had America West (bad idea) We had Delta (They still have access) We had American Airlines (Short lived) We had Continental (to HNL on 767s...we st
38 OA412 : It's surprising that UA doesn't seem able to make transatlantic flights work out of DEN when LH and BA appear to have found success.
39 Ktachiya : Yeah this scares me too. Tokyo is the most likely place with a major earthquake in the next decade out of many large metropolian areas in the world.
40 ER757 : Way back when they first started the route, it was a single 747 daily. At that time NW and JL also flew a 747 daily on the route. That was back in th
41 EXAAUADL : Aside from LHR and FRA, where else would UA fly? Also it is possible that DEN-LHR/FRA can only support one daily flight. BA definitely has the advant
42 Bartond : I would think that DEN-LHR will come back should these stupid oil prices come down.At least I hope so. New and non-established routes are going to be
43 Aaron747 : Mid-level Toyota Group managerial employees and their families often use this flight for travel to MI, IN, MO, and TN. However the high yield passeng
44 UAL777UK : Exactly, I just dont understand this, the flights are packed, how the hell UA cannot make this work is beyond me. You would think for the winter mont
45 Indio66 : Every time I take this route (and I have not for a couple of years), it has been full with business folks and lots of US military. My two cents on al
46 Warreng24 : When SFO-TPE was announced as a non-stop, the NRT-TPE leg was canceled. They will use that slot to re-operated NRT-TPE.
47 Platinumfoota : True, with even more cuts after winter. Right now its looking looking like 60ish flights a day after winter.
48 Jetlanta : Any chance the "Delta can't make LAX work" crowd takes a look at this and realizes that there are some significant issues at LAX right now that make
49 DFWEagle : How long ago was it canceled? NRT slots are very strictly ‘use them or lose them’. Every six months, slots are allocated for the following season
50 StarGoldLHR : Funny how they keep upping and dropping the TPE route. Isnt this the 3rd time they have dropped a direct SFO-TPE route ?
51 FreequentFlier : For the infinite time, full flights don't necessary mean profitable flights! In this day and age, one should assume 90% of flights are probably unpro
52 LAXintl : LAX is not near as fragmented as you make things sound. The Top-3 airlines (UA,AA,WN still board 50% of the airports passengers, with the other 80+ a
53 Jetlanta : None of this changes my point, which is that success is difficult to find for even the most established carrier at LAX. Why should any other U.S. leg
54 Mcdu : Maybe 3 months at the most? The SEA crews were flying the Tag from NRT to TPE and they were down to just NRT.
55 Baw716 : If we see more overseas capacity cuts, we can reasonably infer that UA is having problems with their international operation. If this is so, then UA
56 Centrair : Kind of funny. I just got an email from NWA. They made it 10 years and before that ran HNL-NGO for a few years. HP lasted a few months AA 5 months CO
57 SHUPirate1 : Ummm...right...is Asiana no longer a Star Alliance member?
58 Zone1 : Well it could be said that ICN-SFO is a Star hub to Star hub flight also. With all the destinations that KE flies with no feed stateside, I still sta
59 MarcoPoloWorld : My thought exactly when I heard about this.
60 UAL777UK : Sure, I know this but I just dont see why UA cannot win on this route, second largest hub in thr States, connecting traffic either end, thats before
61 VictorKilo : The flight is routed DTW-NGO-MNL. I think it's smart for NW to combine the business NGO demand with the economy MNL demand, which it can also route t
62 Slips : The first US airline served to Nagoya was Continental - They started NGO-SPN service in 1983, then they are now in 25th years serving Nagoya. In addt
63 Post contains links Warreng24 : NRT-TPE was canceled VERY recently. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=819692
64 ZK-NBT : Id agree from what I've heard NZ won't restart SYD-LAX. But if UA dropped SYD-LAX would they reconsider LAX-AKL? Since NZ are putting 772s on AKL-LAX
65 Slips : " target=_blank>http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showt...19692 UA will resume the NRT-TPE service from Octover, to cover the suspension of SFO-TPE.
66 Lambert747 : It would not be in the best interest for United Airlines to serve Auckland, or resume rather. As now Air New Zealand has the North America/US-NZ mark
67 Anonms : Or had a harder time wooing passengers used to better levels of service.
68 ZK-NBT : I do agree but UA and NZ operated the route together until 2003 and there is only QF to compete with. UA made money ex AKL! SFO is now back to 6x wee
69 Viscount724 : If memory correct, the first nonstop North America-NGO service was Canadian Airlines YVR-NGO sometime in the mid to late 1980s. CP's 763 service on t
70 LAXintl : You could not be further from the truth. United was taking massive losses at Auckland hence why it got the axe in 2003. UA had 96 mouths to feed (man
71 ZK-NBT : Yes the 96 staff in AKL was one of the main reasons AKL got the chop plus they were in bankrupcy and could codeshare with NZ which they already did l
72 Trent1000 : About KIX: why then will TG fly BKK/KIX/LA from September, that is, rather than via NRT? Is it the issue of NRT slots, landing fees or something else
73 Apjung : Ever since UA never brought back the twice daily nonstop flights between MSY-SFO since Katrina, it always required a minimum 2 stops to get to TPE fro
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