Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Copa To Begin Service To CNF On Aug21, 2008  
User currently offlineTBYO787 From Colombia, joined Feb 2008, 195 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4910 times:

Copa just announce service to Belo Horizonte, Brazil (CNF) starting on Aug 21, 2008.

here is the itinerary:

CM 765 PTY 6:48PM CNF 3:32AM FREQUENCY 12467
CM 764 CNF 4:28AM PTY 9:91AM FREQUENCY 12357

Very good for connection thru PTY.

Regards,

TBYO787  Smile

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4904 times:

Is Belo Horizonte that big to warrant international service? And will this be CNF's only int'l service?


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17322 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4895 times:

Why such a short booking window? That's barely 50 days away


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3681 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4877 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Is Belo Horizonte that big to warrant international service? And will this be CNF's only int'l service?

BHZ is huge. TP already serves CNF from LIS 5x week.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4874 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Is Belo Horizonte that big to warrant international service? And will this be CNF's only int'l service

Belo Horizonte is Brazil's 3rd largest metropolitan area (or 3rd most important, depending who one asks).
This would be CNF 2nd international service now, the other is TP LIS.
AA, CO and UA once upon a time flew to CNF.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Why such a short booking window? That's barely 50 days away

That's a surprise, usually CM announces its new services months ahead of the 1st flight. Minero authorities might be very eager to get CM to CNF a.s.a.p.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4756 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Is Belo Horizonte that big to warrant international service? And will this be CNF's only int'l service?

One market that CM is probably focusing is CNF-US. Even with the new bilateral Brazil-US, CM will enjoy at least 1 year of being a real choice for people flying CNF-MCO and MIA. I do believe this market will be 75% of the flight. The rest will be Latin America.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 4):
Belo Horizonte is Brazil's 3rd largest metropolitan area (or 3rd most important, depending who one asks).
This would be CNF 2nd international service now, the other is TP LIS.

You're right about non-stop service. But TAM already runs 1 stop services to EZE (morning thru São Paulo, afternoon thru GIG) and soon will begin CNF-GIG-MIA service (CNF-GIG will be with Airbus A320) at night. G3 also provides one stop international service to CNF market.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32596 posts, RR: 72
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4726 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Even with the new bilateral Brazil-US, CM will enjoy at least 1 year of being a real choice for people flying CNF-MCO and MIA.

Not if AA starts MIA-CNF in December, which they now can.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4706 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
Not if AA starts MIA-CNF in December, which they now can.

This would kill the new flight... and if AA launches the flight closer to CM, no doubt PTY-CNF won't survive.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4703 times:



Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Is Belo Horizonte that big to warrant international service? And will this be CNF's only int'l service?

American Airlines and Continental Airlines both served Belo Horizonte in the past. Other international airlines that currently serve Belo Horizonte include TAP. Belo Horizonte, is a very powerful commercial and industrial center for the Brasilian economy the city has I think something around 6 million people last time I checked in the metro area. Major businesses in the area include FIAT, Telecom Italia/TIM Brasil, Telemig Celular, Acesita, Belgo-Mineira, Usiminas, and Google Brasil among others..


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4683 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
This would kill the new flight... and if AA launches the flight closer to CM, no doubt PTY-CNF won't survive.

AA hasn't killed CM GRU or GIG flights yet. Why should it be different with CNF? Remember that CM costs of flying a B737-700 PTY-CNF-PTY aren't the same as AA B757/767 MIA-CNF-MIA.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4681 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 8):
Major businesses in the area include FIAT, Telecom Italia/TIM Brasil, Telemig Celular, Acesita, Belgo-Mineira, Usiminas, and Google Brasil among others..

Telecom Italia/TIM in fact is HQ in Rio, Telemig has just been bought by Telefonica (HQ in São Paulo and Rio). But you may increase your list with V&M, the paper giant Cenibra, the new player MMX (mining activities), Samarco, Rockwell, GE Transportation, Jabil and others.
Minas Gerais state is ranked # 3 just behind São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, and it's booming because of commodities prices, being one of the largest producers of iron ore.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4673 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 10):
Telecom Italia/TIM in fact is HQ in Rio, Telemig has just been bought by Telefonica (HQ in São Paulo and Rio). But you may increase your list with V&M, the paper giant Cenibra, the new player MMX (mining activities), Samarco, Rockwell, GE Transportation, Jabil and others.
Minas Gerais state is ranked # 3 just behind São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, and it's booming because of commodities prices, being one of the largest producers of iron ore

Indeed, and from what I understand the income in Belo Horzizonte is one of the best in Brasil. Belo Horizonte has been overshadowed for a long time by Sao Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, however more and more goods from the region are showing up around the World. I dont think it is a matter of if, but when CNF will gain more services to Europe, and the elusive direct flight to the United States. I dont think if AA enters the CNF market it will spell death for CM. I think CM has a following as does AA have a following. I think that both can exist in the market. Miami is suited well for East Coast connections and Caribbean connections. CM does well with West Coast and Central American connections. I think that both routes if flown side by side will do well.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4655 times:

Congratulations to CM.

However, I am afraid that CM's faith in CNF may be the same as MAO. With TAM CNF-GIG-MIA and a possible AA MIA-CNF would certainly undermine this flight. Nevertheless, CM still will capture intra-South American market and low-yielding traffic to the US.

Rgs @ LPB


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11416 posts, RR: 59
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4635 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 9):
AA hasn't killed CM GRU or GIG flights yet. Why should it be different with CNF? Remember that CM costs of flying a B737-700 PTY-CNF-PTY aren't the same as AA B757/767 MIA-CNF-MIA.

GRU and GIG has a well established base of business that is connected to Latin America. São Paulo has lots of multinationals with offices in Latin America and regional HQ in São Paulo. Rio has giants like Odebrecht, Vale, Petrobras as well as other multinationals like Praxair, Rexam, BAT and others with also offices in all Latin America. Both also atract regional huge players like Gerdau from POA.

This can explain why they are doing good on both GRU and GIG.

And, i doubt Minas Gerais has such huge list of business ties with Latin America (except for Fiat, V&M and Arcelor). And please do not consider Chile and Argentina. Also, there is no POA-CNF... CNF is just a 5 million pax/year airport.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4626 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 13):
And, i doubt Minas Gerais has such huge list of business ties with Latin America (except for Fiat, V&M and Arcelor).

Agreed, and Fiat business in LatAm is focused on Brazil and Mexico. CNF profile is very different from GRU and GIG, in addition the destination does not have the tourist appeal of MAO which also has an edge because flying to MAO you save a lot of time with connections, while CNF is extremelly well connected with GIG and GRU.

Honestly, in case of CM, I would rather increase frequencies to GIG.

Rgs,


User currently offlineMiner From Brazil, joined Aug 2007, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4607 times:

I read before that this also had to do with expanded business between Panama and Brazil, the widening of the canal for one. I believe Andrade Gutierrez, a BH based contractor is part of the consortium. So not everyone is US bound.

And Yes, BH is a big city and growing fast.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4579 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 9):
AA hasn't killed CM GRU or GIG flights yet.

Those markets are huge compared to CNF.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 9):
Remember that CM costs of flying a B737-700 PTY-CNF-PTY aren't the same as AA B757/767 MIA-CNF-MIA.

But the local traffic CNF-PTY is very close to zero and PTY has a limited set of connections when compared to MIA and the potential 2-connects like CNF-MIA-DFW-NRT.

I wonder if CNF-PTY spells the end of MAO-PTY which is soon going from 4 to 3 x week.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4551 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 16):
I wonder if CNF-PTY spells the end of MAO-PTY which is soon going from 4 to 3 x week.

One thing doesn't have to do with the other; MAO and CNF markets aren't the same and can't be compared.
When CM announced MAO daily, even long before JJ started MAO-MIA, everybody here in PTY knew that MAO should have been a thrice weekly route and that eventually CM would end up flying overthere max 3 times per week. Finally CM came to its senses and that's happening rightnow. CM MAO flight is a niche - mostly O/D - product and CM has no need to go head to head with JJ MIA flight.

Worse case scenario with CNF, CM could drop to 4 weekly (like they do w/COR) in low-season.

I do believe that there's still a market for 3 or 4 x week PTY-SSA, PTY-FOR and PTY-BSB, specially is CM is to offer more U.S. connecting flights available for those Brazilan services.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAndahuailas From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

I understand CM's next new service will be to Monterrey Mexico, starting November, anyone can confirm ?

User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4383 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4478 times:

CM has discovered some new untapped markets in South America: MAO, COR and now they are focusing at CNF.
Any thoughts about to how the business partnership CM-G3 might work at CNF?
Their operations cannot be certainly compared with the amount of flights at both GRU and GIG and probably CM would rely in the traffic merely originated at CNF.




.

Quoting TBYO787 (Thread starter):
CM 765 PTY 6:48PM CNF 3:32AM FREQUENCY 12467
CM 764 CNF 4:28AM PTY 9:91AM FREQUENCY 12357

Very good for connection thru PTY.

Absolutely. CM is offering a similar schedule allocation in their deep South American stations: SCL, GIG, GRU, COR, EZE and MVD.




.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
One market that CM is probably focusing is CNF-US.

Good point taken !

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4378 times:



Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 17):
When CM announced MAO daily, even long before JJ started MAO-MIA, everybody here in PTY knew that MAO should have been a thrice weekly route and that eventually CM would end up flying overthere max 3 times per week.

I am sorry but this makes no sense. "Everybody in PTY knew...", but Copa did not?

If Copa started MAO 5 x week, then reduced it to 4 x and now reduced it to 3 x, it means MAO has lost money all along. Copa made a mistake. Most profitable companies (Copa is profitable isn't it?) only make moves they believe will generate value in the long run. Over the two years that Copa has flown MAO, the decision has cost them over 7 figures.

Companies have internal hurdles to determine what kinds of products they will offer. This prevents for example, an executive from GM from creating a new truck brand that has no chance of making money just to massage his ego (does it...? Big grin). For Copa to have offered PTY-MAO 5x week, hurdles inside Copa were overcome where it was demonstrated that such frequency for such route was the best move - financially. It turned out it was not.

Quoting TBYO787 (Thread starter):
CM 764 CNF 4:28AM PTY 9:91AM FREQUENCY 12357

Such a surreal departure time and an unreal arrival time  Wow!. What's the source for this after all?


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4343 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 20):
I am sorry but this makes no sense. "Everybody in PTY knew...", but Copa did not?

CM got carried away thinking that flying the E190 daily to almost inaccesible MAO from their hub was going to be a money-maker. You should know that more than often, CM does makes mistakes.
Moreover, is public knowledge that JJ MAO-MIA really keeps hurting CM MAO numbers.

I also compare CM experience in MAO with what CM had to put with Colombia and those initial B737-700 flights to ADZ in order to get extra frequencies to BOG; same w/the good-will gesture of openning COR to grant extra EZE frequencies. With flights to MAO and now CNF CM is showing its commitment to more of Brazil than GIG and GRU.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlinePzurita1 From Greenland, joined Sep 2002, 1392 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4337 times:



Quoting Andahuailas (Reply 18):
I understand CM's next new service will be to Monterrey Mexico, starting November, anyone can confirm ?

Nothing like that heard in this part of the world.
In fact I just cannot understand why CM is not already serving MTY. They fly to smaller and farther places such as COR, VVI or MVD. They could if they tried as the Mexico-Panama treaty still has place for airlines flying outside the MEX-PTY. Their service to GDL has been nothing less than succesful... Mmmhhhh, really wondering why MTY is not already in CM network.
Andahuailas: If you are right, that would be awesome, but again, nothing heard of that at least in OMA (MTY airport authority).



Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4321 times:

By the way, CNF doesn't appear on CM website yet.


I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineTBYO787 From Colombia, joined Feb 2008, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4237 times:



Quoting Pzurita1 (Reply 22):
COR, VVI or MVD

CM doesn't Fly to VVI yet.


25 PPVRA : Not that it would need any other reason, but this is horrid arrival/departure time at CNF 3:30am, depart 5am. . . ouch.[Edited 2008-06-27 13:40:36]
26 CALMSP : thats okay..........its already in SHARES. but only in America are these times horrendous. Many in the middle east/india/se asia all have these arriv
27 Incitatus : Not only in America. Also in Europe, Japan, Latin America and Australia. Brazil has some middle of the night domestic flights and the fares to get on
28 2travel2know : I think depending of CNF flight performance, CM might change the times to something like 1130h PTY-CNF and 0300h CNF-PTY. When they 1st started GIG, C
29 C010T3 : That was not the reason, specially because safety is not an issue like it was before. The reason was the lack of connectivity. CM used to offer hotel
30 Civilav : According to Copa sources in Mexico City offices, next possible destination would be Merida and not Monterrey. If that sounds crazy, not so quite. Me
31 SJOtoLIR : The red-eye allocations allow a better utilization of their aircrafts. If CM PTY-CNF would rely in connections aiming to the US bound, the proposed s
32 LipeGIG : I believe they begin like this almost all routes. By the time yields are good to hold a plane on ground for 6 hours, they change the schedule for a m
33 TBYO787 : Most of CM Flights arrive at PTY by 9am-11am and or around 6PM to make connections to all its network. That is the only reason for these times, with
34 Lambert747 : That schedule was in effect last December as well~ PTY-GIG arrived around 11pm GIG-PTY departed around 420am
35 C010T3 : Well, it doesn't matter anymore, since the flights are loaded on Amadeus. Now, the minor typing mistake can be corrected. The arrival time at PTY is
36 2travel2know : Make it PTY-MID-VSA-PTY and CM could hit a Homerun. I'm sure the demand for MAR/CCS - MMVA/VSA Villahermosa is quite interesting. Today CM website ha
37 Incitatus : I too think the change is not due to unsafe access. That is just an excuse. Copa is trying to make the flight profitable. BTW, GIG-PTY is going 5x we
38 AF086 : EFF 02DEC CM872/3 will be daily again and will be kept that way for as far as the system goes.
39 Incitatus : Comments on connections for CNF-PTY to the US and back: Copa's ability to connect traffic from CNF to the US is not that good. Copa's network in the
40 2travel2know : I would think HAV, PUJ and SDQ too could be of some interest for the Mineros.
41 Pzurita1 : If you are only thinking in O&D traffic. However, CM pax rely more on connecting flights in PTY. So, if you fly MTY-MEX-PTY you are only aiming at th
42 2travel2know : CM website doesn't allow bookings to/from CNF yet. Just can guess that sales thru CM call-centre and reservation systems are so high that the flight c
43 Civilav : Those sources are the ones I mention, namely, Copa Sales & Marketing office in Mexico City who. I would imagine, have a bit of information on traffic
44 2travel2know : So the Minas Gerais State Government doesn't speak with ANAC before announcing that CM is to fly PTY-CNF Aug 21st. Bear in mind that CM is allowed to
45 TBYO787 : Here are the fares from CNFPTY on CM, let me know if you need others. 06JUL08**11JUN09/CM BHZPTY/NLX;WH/TPM 3129/MPM 3793 LN FARE BASIS OW USD RT B PE
46 Rafabozzolla : This is somewhat a bit of a code for non GDS buffs. Can you clarify it?
47 2travel2know : USD799 + taxes is the promo fare ? Must keep checking the website if they've something cheaper.
48 TBYO787 :
49 Rafabozzolla : Thanks, sorry if I sounded a bit rude on my previous post.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
DL To Begin Service To GEO (Georgetown, Guyana) posted Thu Feb 14 2008 17:57:34 by DeltaMIA
UA Express To Begin Service To Kalispell Montana posted Sun Dec 24 2006 17:26:15 by Stapleton
WN To Suspend Service At HOU On Friday posted Thu Sep 22 2005 06:46:28 by AZFLYER84
TAM To Begin Service To JFK In 2005/11 posted Mon Jul 25 2005 20:44:18 by N328KF
WN To Begin Service To DCA In Feb posted Mon Jan 17 2005 07:03:56 by UA772IAD
Frontier To Begin Service From EUG posted Fri Oct 8 2004 08:17:44 by Skywestguy
Alaska Airlines To Begin Service To Adak posted Sat Jan 18 2003 01:13:12 by Roadrunner165
Southern Winds To Begin Service To Madrid posted Mon Aug 12 2002 22:11:12 by AirafriqueDKR
Spirit To Begin Service To San Pedro Sula, Hondrua posted Mon Mar 4 2002 15:35:39 by MAH4546
Pan Am To Begin Service To Cumberland, MD posted Wed May 9 2001 19:56:39 by Cody