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AA's ORD-DME Route Performance?  
User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Continuing the discussion than began here - ORD-DME#menu26" target=_blank>http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...&searchid=4012071&s=ORD-DME#menu26 - I was wondering if there is any data available on how new AA's direct Chicago-Moscow flight that started on June 2 is doing - load-wise, yield-wise, etc.?

Anecdotally, a friend of mine just flew the DME-ORD leg (in coach) yesterday (Thursday, June 26) and offered the following observations:

1) AA does not seem to have a problem filling the B777 on the route - there were hardly 5 empty seats in the entire coach cabin (he was not sure about the business class). Granted, it is summer and AA has been offering great introductory rates which people are still taking advantage of but which may not be sustainable in the long run. Majority of folks on the flight, though, looked like the VFR crowd which raises inevitable questions about yields.

2) Domodedovo (DME) did not quite live up to its reputation as the first 21st century airport in Russia - the registration was tortuously slow, the terminal (which seems to be under construction all the time), although bright and clean, is overcrowded with confusing passenger flow patterns (I guess the fact that a bunch of charter flights to Vienna for the Euro semifinals was levaving at the same time as AA159 did not help); the passport control lines took forever due to shortage of staff and poor signage. All in all, it took my friend more than 2 stressful hours to get from the car to the gate

3) AA food sucks on this route just as bad as on any other of their transatlantic flights.

4) The flight left on time but arrived at ORD more than an hour ahead of its scheduled arrival time. Interestingly, it seems to be a recurring pattern - I checked DME-ORD on-time performance for the last week, and the flight seems to be about an hour early pretty much every day... not sure how AA calculated the travel times and why they built so much slack into the schedule.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5591 times:

I didnt know they were flying a 777. Good luck to them. DL does well on ATL-SVO.

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5542 times:



Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
I didnt know they were flying a 777.

This will probably be eventually downguaged to a B763...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineRipcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

I hope they give it time to mature but in this climate and AA's history of pulling the plug early. I'm sure it will be switched to a 767 in the fall the flight will stay if or if they already have some cargo contracts and can fill upfront but without the 2 I see AA dropping it. Come one does anyone fly to eat? All airline food stinks to what you can get on the ground.

User currently offline44k From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

AA 777 Available seats F15 C37 Y194

Load today:

AA159 DME-ORD F9 C21 Y191

AA158 ORD-DME F3 C16 Y139 (26june)

Overall the load factors seemed to have jumped significantly since the start a few weeks ago.


User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5311 times:



Quoting 44k (Reply 4):
AA 777 Available seats F15 C37 Y194

Load today:

AA159 DME-ORD F9 C21 Y191

AA158 ORD-DME F3 C16 Y139 (26june)

Not bad at all, although business loads are kind of light. Where is the data from?


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9518 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5238 times:



Quoting Addd (Reply 5):
although business loads are kind of light.

fourth of july is approaching  Smile



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineZWZWUnited From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

I wonder if maybe if we will see United Airlines try to compete with AA on this route? I know they plan to launch IAD-DME, but one wonders if they will try to go head to head with AA on the ORD-DME route. Seeing the amount of passengers I have connecting through one way or another to DME on United/Star Alliance carriers originating in MSN, I would think they would like to do a non-stop from ORD on a *Alliance carrier.

~Tim



Drop it like its hott!
User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5005 times:



Quoting ZWZWUnited (Reply 7):
I wonder if maybe if we will see United Airlines try to compete with AA on this route? I know they plan to launch IAD-DME, but one wonders if they will try to go head to head with AA on the ORD-DME route. Seeing the amount of passengers I have connecting through one way or another to DME on United/Star Alliance carriers originating in MSN, I would think they would like to do a non-stop from ORD on a *Alliance carrier.

UA just announced IAD-DME so I would assume ORD-DME is at least a couple years away. That said, if IAD does very well then I consider ORD the next logical step.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7817 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4988 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
UA just announced IAD-DME so I would assume ORD-DME is at least a couple years away. That said, if IAD does very well then I consider ORD the next logical step.

I dont think the market can support two carriers on a year round basis. We still need to see how the AA flight preforms. My guess is that it will go 763 year round, but that it will survive.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4916 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
UA just announced IAD-DME so I would assume ORD-DME is at least a couple years away. That said, if IAD does very well then I consider ORD the next logical step

IMHO, if United were to decide to expand their presence in the US-Russia market, it would make a whole deal more sense for them to launch SFO-MOW (where there is no direct competition since SU withdrew several years ago, and significant demand must exist for both business (primarily hi-tech related) and leisure traffic (the latter driven by huge Russian community in the Bay Area/Silicon Valley) instead of competing head-to-head with AA on ORD-MOW. The way things are going at United at the moment, though, I highly doubt it will come to that.


User currently offlineAddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 6 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4887 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):
UA just announced IAD-DME so I would assume ORD-DME is at least a couple years away. That said, if IAD does very well then I consider ORD the next logical step.

In general, I think that once UA launches IAH-DME in October and DL or SU launches JFK-LED (which, I think is bound to happen next spring), the market for direct US-Russia flight will, at least for a while, reach a saturation point (especially considering the US near-recession and rampant inflation in Russia which are likely to suppress demand in the foreseable future).

Direct flights from the US to the cities beyond Moscow and St Pete will not be economical (may be in 10 yrs with B787, but not now) - so that market will continue to be dominated by SU, LH and OS with connections through Moscow/Frankfurt/Vienna.


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4765 times:



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 1):
I didnt know they were flying a 777.

This will probably be eventually downguaged to a B763...

In terms of Y seats, AA's 772 and 763 are pretty close, the big difference is that 772 has C and more J. It really kind of depends upon the 777 availability and how well sales and yields go up front.

Also, it would go to figure that cargo would be a good reason to use 772 over 763.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 8):

UA just announced IAD-DME so I would assume ORD-DME is at least a couple years away. That said, if IAD does very well then I consider ORD the next logical step.

UA has found they get better yields on transatlantic flights out of IAD than out of ORD. Given the incredible growth of UA-Moscow traffic this year, and oil, I wouldn't expect any more growth, so for UA, I think it's either IAD or ORD, and IAD makes more sense, esp. if they are set on using 763.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7367 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4594 times:
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As I've stated before regarding this route; all AA 767 crews are required to get a Russian Visa with AMR.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 6):


Quoting Addd (Reply 5):
although business loads are kind of light.

fourth of july is approaching

Your a funny guy, Gavin!  yes 


User currently offlineLACA773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4067 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 4255 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting Addd (Reply 10):
IMHO, if United were to decide to expand their presence in the US-Russia market, it would make a whole deal more sense for them to launch SFO-MOW (where there is no direct competition since SU withdrew several years ago, and significant demand must exist for both business (primarily hi-tech related) and leisure traffic (the latter driven by huge Russian community in the Bay Area/Silicon Valley) instead of competing head-to-head with AA on ORD-MOW. The way things are going at United at the moment, though, I highly doubt it will come to that.

How does SV do out of LAX on their five weekly 763 flights?


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3919 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
As I've stated before regarding this route; all AA 767 crews are required to get a Russian Visa with AMR.

Same as the 777 crews  Wink

Quoting Addd (Reply 5):
Not bad at all, although business loads are kind of light. Where is the data from?

Probably just Jetnet. You can access all the flight load info on there for nonrev'ing purposes.


User currently offlineAlbird87 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3901 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 13):
As I've stated before regarding this route; all AA 767 crews are required to get a Russian Visa with AMR.

Dont you mean 777 pilots or are they exempt?
I can imagine tho that the cargo on this route is probably the main reason why AA send the 777!
As some one has already stated, there isnt much difference in the Y difference and the J class against the 777 and 767. Only 7 more seats in J and then the 16 in First.
The only reason i can imagine the change in equipment would be to have a the need for the 777 on another route (one that will perform full loads nearly all year round).


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 17, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3383 times:



Quoting Albird87 (Reply 16):
Dont you mean 777 pilots or are they exempt?

No one is exempt - it's Russia  Wink

Quoting Albird87 (Reply 16):
Only 7 more seats in J and then the 16 in First.
The only reason i can imagine the change in equipment would be to have a the need for the 777 on another route (one that will perform full loads nearly all year round).

Well... yes and no.

While the AA 763 technically has 30 seats in J, two of them are blocked of for cockpit crew rest area, seats 2H and 2J. So, on longhauls, AA only sells J-class to 28 seats on the 763. With this in mind, the 777 will technically have 9x more J seats than the 763.

Also, you mentioned 16 in F-class. Again this is partially true. While there are 16 seats, there are some that will be blocked off for cockpit crew rest area. On flights 8:01 to 12:00 in blocktime, there will be three pilots and seat 1A will be blocked for crew rest, and the F-cabin will be sold to only 15. On flights 12:01+ in blocktime, there will be four pilots and seats 1A and 2A will be blocked, and the F-cabin will be sold to only 14.

DME-ORD is 10:45 blocktime, IIRC. So, AA sells the flights to 15F/37C/194Y. If a 763 were to operate the route, they'd be sold to 28J/191Y.


User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

Don't want to change the subject (which by the way is very interesting ...) but don't AA's 777s come fitted with flightcrew and FA OHARs?

For instance, some long-range 777 flights operated by BA come fitted with an OHAR (2 bunks) for flightcrew - just fwd of door 2R, and an FA OHAR (8 bunks) just fwd of 3R.

Best of luck to AA with the route, I wonder where the crew are accommodated and how long the layover is .... would certainly make for an interesting trip assignment!


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3145 times:



Quoting CityofAthens (Reply 18):
but don't AA's 777s come fitted with flightcrew and FA OHARs?

For instance, some long-range 777 flights operated by BA come fitted with an OHAR (2 bunks) for flightcrew - just fwd of door 2R, and an FA OHAR (8 bunks) just fwd of 3R.

All of AA's 777's have bunkrooms for both pilot and FA crew rest area. The FA bunkroom has either 6 or 8 bunks, I forget which number exactly. It's situated in between doors 3L and 3R, just forward of them.

The pilot crew bunkroom is immediate aft of the cockpit on the left side of the aircraft (foward of door 1L), with two bunks.

Here's the catch though. Even though there is a full bunkroom for the pilots, the contract still stipulates that AA must block off the first class seats IN ADDITION to the bunkroom. Now, I always try to be as supportive as I can of the pilots and FA's during contract and benefit negotiations, but this policy is completely ridiculous. I mean, they already have a full bunkroom, why oh why do they need the first class seats to be blocked off in addition?? This is done at no other airline. At UA if a 777 with a bunkroom is operating a longhaul route, no first class seats are blocked off. If it is a 777 with no bunkroom, it is only then first class seats are blocked for crew rest.

Everyone of AA's 47x 777's has a cockpit bunkroom though. Come next round of contract negotiations, this ridiculous policy of blocking first class in addition to bunkroom better be taken away.

Quoting CityofAthens (Reply 18):
Best of luck to AA with the route, I wonder where the crew are accommodated and how long the layover is .... would certainly make for an interesting trip assignment!

I've been told the hotel is pretty far away... 45 minutes to an hour drive from the airport.

So far, the crews give Russia a hot and cold response. Apparently the Russian customs (or some other Gov't organization) are complete Nazis about the food catering, so AA is forced to double-cater the DME flights in ORD. Yes, AA has to cater food, drink, alcohol, duty-free, and crew meals for both flights. It's a good thing AA put in giant galleys with tons of space in their 777's. This reason alone might prevent the 763 from operating the route, unless AA is somehow able to get around these restrictions and have the flights catered in DME too.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5374 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3045 times:



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 19):
Apparently the Russian customs (or some other Gov't organization) are complete Nazis about the food catering, so AA is forced to double-cater the DME flights in ORD.

Weird! Do you know what kind of restrictions they are placing upon AA? Also, does anyone in the know have any idea if DL does the same thing or do they have their aircraft catered at SVO.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineCityofAthens From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

Thanks for the reply ... very interesting. I have to add that on the BA 744 in addition to having an OHAR and toilet within the flightdeck area, our 60B (Club seat just aft of the f/d) seat is also blocked off for flightcrew on long range sectors. I don't understand the logic, but there you have it!

With regards to the hotel accommodation, I have no idea of course but given the distance you quoted I would hazard a guess that the crew may be accommodated in town ... the airport hotel is apparently pretty spartan by our standards.

I've operated our flights to DME on the Airbus and 767 (shorthaul BA crews operate there & back as the flight time is fairly short) .... the meals are catered in DME (and very interesting they are too) but BA has a policy of round-tripping all alcohol and Duty Free bars on shorthaul flights (the latter applies to all longhaul flights too).

From what you write I gather AA holds stock of its Duty Free bars at outstations?

I recommend a trip to Russia ... fascinating country. You must go with your eyes and mind open though. The very worst thing you could do is expect it to be like Europe ... it most certainly is not ... things work very differently. Nonetheless, an experience to be savoured. I can understand why some AA crew might not like the trip, but then again someone who is used to European or American standards of customer service and quality will almost certainly get a rude awakening soon after setting foot on Russian soil! Big grin


User currently offlineDallasnewark From Estonia, joined Nov 2005, 495 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 6 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

The loads in business are very light. My wife took ORD-DME last week flying in J class and there were only 8 people in the entire business class cabin on a B777.

The Loads may pick up later on, they are a bit on the light side right now



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