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CO & UA Future In South America  
User currently offlineEastern023 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 871 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

Granted all issues with oil come to an end (yes!...wishful thinking!). What is going to happen with coverage to Souh America? I bet we will see CO/UA codeshare, but would there be any expansion? Places like SCL, MVD, are not covered by either carrier anymore. Will CO push harder this time to open more cities in the area?


AA will Rise Again!
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4901 times:

A NRT-IAH-GRU codeshare makes sense. But outside of IAH-SCL I doubt there will be too much expansion in SA.

User currently offlineQazar From Canada, joined May 2006, 327 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

Continental, in South America, serves (not including Central American and Carribean destinations):

From IAH:
Sao Paulo
Rio de Janeiro
Buenos Aires
Lima
Quito
Guayaquil
Bogota
Cali
Caracas

From EWR:
Sao Paulo
Lima
Bogota
Caracas

United, in South America, serves (not including Central American and Carribean destinations):

From ORD:
Sao Paulo / Rio de Janeiro

From IAD:
Sao Paulo / Rio de Janeiro
Buenos Aires

In my opinion, I believe the new UA/CO alliance will allow both carriers to more efficiently coordinate their South American schedules. Continental is probably more poised for any future increases in frequencies on existing routes and/or any new destinations to be opened such as Santiago de Chile and Montevideo - UA taking the back seat in terms of S.American expansion. Continental is the better choice because of its already existing extensive network into South America (relative to that of UA), as well as the geographical location of the IAH hub, which would serve as a more logical transfer point from all points in the USA and into South America.

On UA's side would be any streamlining or expansion into the Far East due to its LAX and SFO hubs which are the logical transfer points from all points in mainland USA.

Furthermore, CO's EWR hub, would allow the new alliance to capitalize on the New York area population for additional frequencies into South America - making IAH the primary South American gateway of the new alliance, with EWR the secondary one, followed by IAD and ORD (which would connect well into the EWR hub - therefore making them a bit of a stretch for potential future developments).

Also, with the arrival of TAM into the Star Alliance soon (it's not official, but let's face it - it's probably in the bag already), Sao Paulo becomes the prime gateway to Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Santiago de Chile, and all other Brazilian, Argentinian, Uruguayan and Chilean destinations... Consequently, Sao Paulo can technically be justified as the new alliance's only destination in the Southern part of South America - using TAM as a feeder/connector to all other markets. As a matter of fact, I see Rio de Janeiro disappearing off the networks of CO and UA - eventually served as a codeshare by TAM aircraft.

Cheers!


User currently offlineUalcsr From United States of America, joined May 2006, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

Given CO's relationship with CM, I think a lot of what the new alliance does in LatAm will depend on what CM does.

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3694 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4575 times:



Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):

Also, with the arrival of TAM into the Star Alliance soon (it's not official, but let's face it - it's probably in the bag already), Sao Paulo becomes the prime gateway to Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Montevideo, Santiago de Chile, and all other Brazilian, Argentinian, Uruguayan and Chilean destinations... Consequently, Sao Paulo can technically be justified as the new alliance's only destination in the Southern part of South America - using TAM as a feeder/connector to all other markets. As a matter of fact, I see Rio de Janeiro disappearing off the networks of CO and UA - eventually served as a codeshare by TAM aircraft.

You must be out of your mind! If Star Alliance carriers ever tried such a suicidal move, OneWorld and Skyteam would divide and conquer South America in no time and more than they already do. GRU is in no shape to receive expansion of any kind and it will grow very slowly from now on. CO's market at IAH is very dependable on GIG. If CO ever pulled out of GIG, it would have to quickly look for alternatives, since passengers would migrate to DL and connect at ATL like many already do.
TAM has extensive problems in offering connections at GRU. They have to learn how to cater to partners. It's become very common for passengers to purchase two tickets, one for the domestic flight and another for the international one, when the trip involves carriers other than TAM. People think that connecting at GRU is seamless, but it really isn't.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4330 times:



Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):
Continental is probably more poised for any future increases in frequencies on existing routes and/or any new destinations to be opened such as Santiago de Chile and Montevideo - UA taking the back seat in terms of S.American expansion.

I agree that CO is better-positioned to expand in South America, but I'm not sure either SCL or MVD is in the cards. SCL seems pretty saturated. DL's experiment with additional weekly frequencies in the high season wasn't exactly a rousing success (and oil cost 1/3 of what it does now), and DFW-SCL is only a fair performer. MVD has less service, but it's not a large market. If DL can't make MVD-ATL work, I can't see UA or CO doing it from one of their hubs.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4111 times:

I think this analysis shouldn't stop merely at CO and UA. From the CO/UA/Star press release:

"Antitrust Immunized Joint Ventures

Joint ventures are also planned for the Latin America and Asia/Pacific regions, involving Continental, United and other members of the Star Alliance. Both antitrust immunity and code-sharing are subject to receipt of approvals from applicable national authorities."

I can easily see a Latin America joint venture including CO, UA, AC, US (if still around), TP, JK, and even LH.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4062 times:



Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):
Cali

Not anymore.

777jaah



Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3999 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
If DL can't make mvd-ATL work, I can't see UA or CO doing it from one of their hubs

I agree, but the reality is that the market is well covered by AA and MVD is a small market, what I could expect and could work is a MVD-ATL seasonal.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3804 times:



Quoting PU752 (Reply 8):
what I could expect and could work is a MVD-ATL seasonal.

It might, though MVD is a tough market for a carrier like DL because they'd have to devote 2 aircraft to the route to have a competitive schedule. UA had the EZE-MVD tag for a while, and I wonder if DL might try a tag to MVD after they start JFK-EZE (I suspect ATL-EZE performs well enough that a tag would be foolish right now).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4466 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3680 times:



Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):
Continental, in South America, serves (not including Central American and Caribbean destinations):

From IAH:
Sao Paulo
Rio de Janeiro
Buenos Aires
Lima
Quito
Guayaquil

CO IAH-GYE will be dropped on September 02nd.




.

Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):
Sao Paulo can technically be justified as the new alliance's only destination in the Southern part of South America - using TAM as a feeder/connector to all other markets. As a matter of fact, I see Rio de Janeiro disappearing off the networks of CO and UA - eventually served as a codeshare by TAM aircraft.

JJ currently code-shares with UA their flights from Brazil to the US bound.




.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
CO is better-positioned to expand in South America

CO has expanded its code-share coverage with CM into South America.
As a matter of fact, CM PTY-SCL, CM PTY-EZE, CM PTY-LIM and CM PTY-COR -among others- sustain cooperation with CO.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3670 times:



Quoting Qazar (Reply 2):
As a matter of fact, I see Rio de Janeiro disappearing off the networks of CO and UA - eventually served as a codeshare by TAM aircraft

Why would the want to opt out of one of the highest yielding markets in South America?

That would be the most ridiculous business move to date!!!


User currently offlineJDAirCEO From Uruguay, joined Jan 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3642 times:

AA loads out of MVD are good but any reduction in numbers by splitting the market between two carriers would not work. AA also has the support of its EZE operation... crew base, cargo, and maintenance.
Eg: Last week MIA-MVD was not able to land and diverted to EZE, when they arrived another 763 had been fueled and staffed with a new crew. They transferred passengers and cargo and hoped over to MVD.

UA had a very loyal following and they couldn't make it work.

I dont see any other carrier being able to make it work without killing off the other. With AA's brand recognition it just wouldn't work. Unless of course Pluna was able to give it a whirl.



An MD-80 is great... in first class
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3455 times:



Quoting JDAirCEO (Reply 12):
UA had a very loyal following and they couldn't make it work.

Is that because of MVD or because UA isn't really committed to Latin America?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3438 times:
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United needs to fly to GRU and EZE from at least IAD because these are the type of Metro areas world wide demand exists for from their premuim FF. UA and Coninental should be able to do GRu from EWR, IAH and IAD & EZE from IAH and one east coast point. Brazil and Argentina are the two biggest markets in Deep South America.

User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3418 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
United needs to fly to GRU and EZE from at least IAD because these are the type of Metro areas world wide demand exists for from their premuim FF. UA and Coninental should be able to do GRu from EWR, IAH and IAD & EZE from IAH and one east coast point. Brazil and Argentina are the two biggest markets in Deep South America.

All of the above flights are currently in service on a daily basis.

UA 847
IAD-EZE, Daily, 763

UA 861
IAD-GRU, Daily, 763

CO 31
EWR-GRU, Daily, 762

CO 51
IAH-EZE, Daily, 762

CO 93
IAH-GRU-GIG, Daily, 764


User currently offlinePU752 From Uruguay, joined Mar 2005, 584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3293 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
Is that because of MVD or because UA isn't really committed to Latin America?

I'd say its because of MVD, being a small market for two major american carriers.


User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6091 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3261 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
If DL can't make MVD-ATL work, I can't see UA or CO doing it from one of their hubs.

Why not..IAH is better position that ATL to get west coast originating traffic....I am not saying it would work...but I actually think that a CO IAH-MVD would have a better chance than ATL-MVD.

IAH competes less with MIA than ATL.

and there are soem routes that CO makes work but DL can't....MGA for example.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8325 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3230 times:
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AA seems to be the only one the only one to do montevideo from the USA. This works with the big EZE operations next door for support. Delta or Continenal to IAH or ATL seems a stretch. Its like Air France or Lufthansa flying to CDG or FRA, there is a reason only IB flies from MVD to Europe.

User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3195 times:



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 18):
AA seems to be the only one the only one to do montevideo from the USA. This works with the big EZE operations next door for support. Delta or Continenal to IAH or ATL seems a stretch. Its like Air France or Lufthansa flying to CDG or FRA, there is a reason only IB flies from MVD to Europe

American Airlines Buenos Aires flight have only a little to do with American Airlines Montevideo flights for the most part. Montevideo is flown nonstop from Miami with a 767-300 3x per week. Aside from the existing 1 stop service via Buenos Aires.


User currently offlineAF086 From France, joined Jan 2007, 1059 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3185 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 15):
UA 861
IAD-GRU, Daily, 763

This flight continues to GIG when the IAD-GIG nonstop isn't flown.



Please insert a "smart" joke here.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3171 times:



Quoting AF086 (Reply 20):
This flight continues to GIG when the IAD-GIG nonstop isn't flown

Indeed  Smile

Hopefully United Airlines will make better use and operate the route IAD-GIG nonstop year-round if even on a less than daily basis..


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3115 times:



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 17):

and there are soem routes that CO makes work but DL can't....MGA for example.

IAH is better-located for Central America connections than is MIA or ATL.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 17):

IAH competes less with MIA than ATL.

Agreed, but with many more connecting opportunities at ATL and the fact that MVD is pretty far east, I'm not sure the difference is meaningful here.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 4466 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3081 times:

Both MVD and SCL are attended by means of flights operated by TACA on behalf of United:

TA LIM-MVD. Code-shared as UA 4371.
TA MVD-LIM. Code-shared as UA 4372.

TA LIM-SCL. Code-shared as UA 4363.
TA SCL-LIM. Code-shared as UA 4336.

Connections are affordable to MIA using TA's hubs.

Regards.



"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22867 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3026 times:



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 23):
Both MVD and SCL are attended by means of flights operated by TACA on behalf of United:

I swear I've made this point before, but connections from the United States to deep South America on TA require several connections and as much as 24 hours. They aren't especially competitive.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 Lambert747 : Indeed since neither TACA nor UA offer nonstop service from Lima to the USA.
26 SJOtoLIR : True. One more layover is compulsory: TA LIM-SJO and then TA SJO-USA and back. Code-share service with UA. TA LIM-SAL and then TA SAL-USA and back. C
27 Mt99 : They must be though. It baffles me the amount of passengers that fly to deep South America from ORD. There seems to be a good dozen or more every tim
28 Cubsrule : It's weird. Heck, AC through YYZ is probably better even for those who are slaves to the UA miles. TA must be cheap cheap cheap.
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