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Continental 121 757 Emergency?  
User currently offlineMedic2366 From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 33 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9305 times:

There was a report that Continental Flight 121 from Barcelona - 757 aircraft, made an emergency landing in Bangor, Maine today due to a "fuel emergency." This was announced on the PA at Newark Airport. The plane was coming from Barcelona. Does anyone know more about this. Flightaware.com shows the aircraft did make a stop in Bangor. I wonder how they run out of fuel enroute. is this due to high gas prices and not filling up the planes as much as they used to... i.e flying with minimum allowable fuel?

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3979 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9273 times:
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just a fuel stop.........nothing new.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5843 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8801 times:



Quoting Medic2366 (Thread starter):
is this due to high gas prices and not filling up the planes as much as they used to... i.e flying with minimum allowable fuel?

Yes, it is. The gas prices have forced my industry to take a new view on the value of life, and as such, management has decided that it's worth it to risk putting a smallish 757 into the Pond to save on the fuel bill.

Calming down a bit now, fuel regulations for ETOPS flights didn't change when gas got pricey. You still have to follow the same rules. And, hate to break it to ya, but two years ago when gas was 'cheap', airlines weren't just putting more on, because it was 'cheap'. That's not the way it's worked. Ever.


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 942 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8737 times:
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CO trans-Atlantic 757s have been frequently putting down early for fuel in places like Gander, Bangor etc. On days where there are weather issues within 200 miles of EWR, as there was yesterday, June 28, many of the European flights divert, even to places like ALB and SWF.

User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12480 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8735 times:

Some time ago, BCN-EWR was reported as being one of the most diverted CO 757 flights, as it is a very long stretch for a 757.

User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8706 times:

Probably a redispatch, and at the redispatch fix, he didnt have enough gas to continue...


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineWAH64D From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 966 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8651 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 5):
Probably a redispatch, and at the redispatch fix, he didnt have enough gas to continue...

 checkmark 

Entirely normal flight planning procedure. Perhaps you could explain a bit more about re-dispatch in flight as a lot of members will not have heard of this before. If you are a dispatcher as per your username, you'll be able to explain it better than I can.  Smile



I AM the No-spotalotacus.
User currently offlineLTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8594 times:

The choice of a/c used, flight distance, take off weight, possible higher head winds Westbound and especially high rates of weather delays to be able to land at major airports like EWR the can necessitate refueling stops as well as diversion stops like CO 121 has to frequently do.
One does have to wonder if CO is making a mistake with the use of 757's on the BCN-EWR run, but we have to conclude the number crunchers figure those fuel stops are a better deal than using a larger a/c with the ability to carry more fuel. I wouldn't be surprised that if the fuel prices continue to go up that CO would end that route and redeploy the a/c to another on with fewer range issues.


User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4120 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 8581 times:

Even Delta's 767-300 from Stuttgart to Atlanta has to occasionally stop at Bangor because there is a hill/mountain after takeoff from Stuttgart that prevents the plane from being as heavy as it normally should be for the long run to ATL. To lighten the weight and climb over the hill, they put in enough fuel to get to BGR and then fill up for the onward flight down to ATL. That's what I understand to be the case with that particular flight. I don't know why it only happens occasionally since the hill is 'always' there. The N. Atlantic track they take must dictate whether the flight can make it all the way to ATL nonstop or not. I would guess that 2-3 times a month that flight stops at BGR, according to FlightAware.

User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 8401 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Calming down a bit now, fuel regulations for ETOPS flights didn't change when gas got pricey. You still have to follow the same rules. And, hate to break it to ya, but two years ago when gas was 'cheap', airlines weren't just putting more on, because it was 'cheap'. That's not the way it's worked. Ever.

Right, but minimum fuel use is much more of a 'hot button' item than it used to be.

Quoting WAH64D (Reply 6):
Entirely normal flight planning procedure. Perhaps you could explain a bit more about re-dispatch in flight as a lot of members will not have heard of this before. If you are a dispatcher as per your username, you'll be able to explain it better than I can.

Please correct me if I'm wrong since I'm pulling this off the top of my head, but basically when you cross the pond, you're required to carry a reserve equal to 10% of the time spent in Class II navigation (that is, basically, away from ground-based navigational aids) in addition to the normal divert and holding fuel you always carry. A "rerelease" (Ops Specs "B44", right?) is basically a flight planning tool that allows you to skip out on carrying all the reserve fuel by releasing the flight to an intermediate point along the route of flight (say, Iceland, for example), such that you're only carring the required reserve fuel to make it to that intermediate "destination". When the flight is enroute, the aircraft will contact the company to get released to the final destination based on actual fuel on board at that point, just as if the flight was originally planned from the intermediate point to the destination. Other folks please feel free to pitch in and add clarification.



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8305 times:

1st point: I would bet that the flight crew knows they will have to make a pit stop along the way to EWR before they even take-off.


2nd point: It seems that by stopping off in Bangor for more fuel it adds about 90 minutes to 2 hours to the flight. Why so long?

and lastly, I stupidly booked myself on Continental EWR to BCN in July. Now knowing that there is a very good possibility of having to stop for fuel and adding 2 hours to my flight time home, and on a 757, I should have spent the extra $150 per ticket and flown on Delta (767) and having the reasurance that there wouldnt be a fuel stop. God, I cant even fathom having to spend close to 10 hours on a Continental 757. What was I thinking?

[Edited 2008-06-29 07:14:09]

User currently offlineMeridianBUF From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8195 times:

Same flight went to Gander last December. Some generator problem.
It was very nice, I spent a night in a hotel, all meals etc.. provided free, excellent service. CO took really good care of us.

The next day we were bussed back to the airport and we were delayed several hours more after everything got fixed due to an impressive blizzard.

All in all, a nice experience, if you are in no rush to get where you are going.


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 8104 times:



Quoting MeridianBUF (Reply 11):
All in all, a nice experience, if you are in no rush to get where you are going.

You make it sound as if it was part of some tourist package you bought as part of a cruise. "Make an unscheduled stop, enjoy a free meal, a free nights hotel stay and get home a day later". No thanks. After 6 or 7 hours in flight, get me the f*** home. Next time I book DL and fly the 767 even if I do have to pay more money. In fact, maybe CO should put some kind of a note in the reservation process saying something like, "In the summer months the chance of a fuel stop are highly probable thus delaying your return trip home by many, many hours. Book with caution.


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7937 times:

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 9):
10% of the time spent in Class II navigation

Not quite, that is a B043 release, which permits the 10% (or 5% if your carrier has B343) of your time in Class II.

B044 is the redispatch release. Redispatch is a way to permit very long routes, by breaking a long route into two segments. Let's say I am doing a B757 from AMS to PHL, and I wanna do a redispatch, due to pax load. OpSpecs B343 is an alternative method which allows the carrier to reduce the 10% to 5%; maybe Continental doesnt have B343 authority. While B343 dispatch does permit a reduction in reserve fuel, without the uncertainty of redispatch, in some cases redispatch is the only way to at least plan a nonstop, unless you want to leave a good portion of the payload at the origin airport. LAXHKG is a redispatch, LAXSYD is a redispatch - those super long haul legs are only doable (unless the flight is very light) by doing a redispatch.

On my B757 AMSPHL, based on my routing today, I decide that I want to use SEAER intersection as my redispatch point, and redispatch the flight into BOS with a BDL alternate for BOS. My fuel ladder for AMS-SEAER-BOS looks like this:


    * AMS-SEAER FUEL 51.3 TIME 0630 DIST 2959
    * SEAER-BOS FUEL 3.0 TIME 0022 DIST 0123
    * ALTN BDL FUEL 3.5 TIME 0015 DIST 0078
    * 10PCT FUEL 4.6 TIME 0041
    * FLAG RSV FUEL 4.2 TIME 0030
    * MIN RELS FUEL 66.6 REQUIRED


My fuel ladder for the SEAER-PHL with no alternate looks like:

    * SEAER-PHL FUEL 7.1 TIME 0101 DIST 0423
    * ALTN/NONE
    * 10 PCT FUEL 0.7 TIME 0006
    * FLAG RSV FUEL 4.2 TIME 0030
    * SEAER-PHL FUEL 11.9 REQUIRED
    * SEAER-PHL FUEL 15.3 PLANNED


In the first case, AMS-SEAER-BOS with the BDL alternate, I am required to have on board at takeoff 66600#, which is the totals of the amounts above. Note that the 10% is the 10% amount of the total flight time from AMS-SEAER-BOS. I need an alternate because that segment is exceeding 6 hours.

In the case of SEAER-PHL, I dont need an alternate (unless required by weather), because that segment is less than 6 hours in length. Note also that the 10% amount is the time from SEAER-BOS, so a whopping 6 minutes, or 700 lbs. Based on my takeoff fuel from AMS, I am planning to cross overhead SEAER with 15.3 on board, however, I am only required to cross SEAER with only 11.9 on board.

The savings from redispatch comes from the reduced 10% requirement. Note however, that the flight, when it takes off from AMS, isnt cleared by dispatch into PHL - just to BOS. The dispatcher will monitor the enroute position reports, and no more than 2 hours prior to overhead is redispatch fix, will re-release the flight all the way to PHL (in my case) if he will have the required fuel on board. If the flight is overburning, such as with winds aloft worse than forecast, being kept at a lower altitude than planned for the north atlantic crossing, or some MEL requirements requiring additional fuel are some of the things that could keep one from being able to complete a redispatch - depending on how much fuel you have on board at the redispatch point between your required fuel and planned fuel - or what I call your redispatch cushion.

Plus, if I remember correctly, the NY Area was getting slammed with weather yesterday afternoon, and maybe the dispatcher wanted him to drop into BGR in any event for a gas-n-go because of a need to change the alternate for EWR; EWR is one airport I wouldnt want to do a skosh fuel operation especially with convective weather around the area...

[Edited 2008-06-29 08:11:44]


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

There is so much over-reaction and misinformation here on these flights it's unbelievable:


Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 12):
In the summer months the chance of a fuel stop are highly probable thus delaying your return trip home by many, many hours. Book with caution.

No, the chance is highly improbable - precisely the opposite. Routes are not planned by CO or anyone else operating 752s across the Atlantic that will "probably" have to stop. There are days where a fuel stop, or unscheduled diversion will have to occur but this are the exception, not the rule. And as for thunderstorms in the summer? Has it escaped people's attention that these are not unique meteorological phenomena that only affect 757s? A big storm in the NE of the US will leave diverted aircraft all over the place - 737s, 744s, 777s, everything. That's more a function of nature than anyone cutting corners on 757 fuel loads.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 10):
Now knowing that there is a very good possibility of having to stop for fuel and adding 2 hours to my flight time home, and on a 757, I should have spent the extra $150 per ticket and flown on Delta (767) and having the reasurance that there wouldnt be a fuel stop. God, I cant even fathom having to spend close to 10 hours on a Continental 757. What was I thinking?

Again, not a "very good possibility" at all. And don't get me started on the experience that being stuck on a DL 767 would involve - being shouted at by a prison matron for 8 hours across the Atlantic isn't my idea of fun  Smile What's the difference being on a 752 for 7-10 hours that more likely than not will have an updated interior with AVOD, friendly crew, etc? Is it that hard to fathom?

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
CO trans-Atlantic 757s have been frequently putting down early for fuel in places like Gander, Bangor etc. On days where there are weather issues within 200 miles of EWR, as there was yesterday, June 28, many of the European flights divert, even to places like ALB and SWF.

Not a problem unique to 757s, as I've said before. The time when there are diversions / fuel stops unique to transatlantic 757s is in the winter, when the headwinds across the Atlantic are far stronger. Even then it is a very small % of the flights. During the summer, all flights are affected by thunderstorms.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Yes, it is. The gas prices have forced my industry to take a new view on the value of life, and as such, management has decided that it's worth it to risk putting a smallish 757 into the Pond to save on the fuel bill.

Believe me, there's not "risk" about it - the flights are well within the a/c range.


User currently offlineAjd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7694 times:



Quoting Medic2366 (Thread starter):
I wonder how they run out of fuel enroute

If they ran out of fuel then you'd hear a LOT more about it. If A B757 ran out of fuel more than once then they'd probably not use a 757 on the route and probably use a 767-200.

Either way, it's just a fuel stop. At no point did it go below minimum fuel (reserves etc) because if it did, then it wouldn't be legal. CO planners and dispatch will have factored all that in beforehand. If they didn't, the flight I imagine would be breaking a few (or more...) FARs.


User currently offlineWAH64D From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 966 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7260 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 13):

Well, I was right, I'd never have got close to explaining it that well. Many thanks sir!



I AM the No-spotalotacus.
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6722 times:



Quoting Star_world (Reply 14):
Again, not a "very good possibility" at all. And don't get me started on the experience that being stuck on a DL 767 would involve - being shouted at by a prison matron for 8 hours across the Atlantic isn't my idea of fun What's the difference being on a 752 for 7-10 hours that more likely than not will have an updated interior with AVOD, friendly crew, etc? Is it that hard to fathom?

So, while I'm on that 757-200 for 10 hours with overflowing toilets and a forced fuel stop in bangor I will be wishing I was on that Delta 763 that would have landed on time with attendants the friendliest, nicest cabin attendants in the airline industry. But, my continental flight MIGHT have AVOD, now that makes up for all the screw ups I'll most likely endure on a CO 757 flight overseas.....


User currently offlineStar_world From Ireland, joined Jun 2001, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6543 times:



Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 17):
So, while I'm on that 757-200 for 10 hours with overflowing toilets and a forced fuel stop in bangor I will be wishing I was on that Delta 763 that would have landed on time with attendants the friendliest, nicest cabin attendants in the airline industry. But, my continental flight MIGHT have AVOD, now that makes up for all the screw ups I'll most likely endure on a CO 757 flight overseas.....

I think you'd still be wishing that about the FAs long after you landed on that nice comfy 763  Smile

I've crossed the Atlantic 137 times in the last 3 years - about 1/3 of those were on CO 752s, the remainder were CO 762/4s, BA 772s, AF 332s, and (twice) DL 763s. The DL experiences are the only ones that stand out in my mind as bad experiences  Smile Not a single fuel stop on a 752 either - I've flown every route that CO operates them on - which would be a statistical impossibility if you listened to the opinions here.

Don't knock it till you try it  Smile


User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7162 posts, RR: 57
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6393 times:



Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 17):
So, while I'm on that 757-200 for 10 hours with overflowing toilets and a forced fuel stop in bangor

Get a life.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineReadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3276 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6393 times:



Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 10):
What was I thinking?

Guess this is not your seat then?


Big version: Width: 640 Height: 438 File size: 125kb
 Wink



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineGoBoeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2699 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6343 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
The gas prices have forced my industry to take a new view on the value of life, and as such, management has decided that it's worth it to risk putting a smallish 757 into the Pond to save on the fuel bill.

This is sarcasm right?! Just want to make sure!


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 20):
Guess this is not your seat then?

Which by the way, in doing a business class comparison, I found that CO's business/first on there 757's is not as accomodating as on there 767 and 777 aircraft thus certainly not worth the money to spend on the biz/first 757 product. As sky team elite (Delta PM) I was able to choose the exit row in which for a fraction of the cost of business/first I will be more then adequately comfortable in coach

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 19):
Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 17):
So, while I'm on that 757-200 for 10 hours with overflowing toilets and a forced fuel stop in bangor

Get a life.

get a sense of humor. Obviously if I thought things would be that bad I wouldnt have choosen CO. I'm sure every airline has had an overflowing toilet but just not all of them had it reported in the media.

[Edited 2008-06-29 10:37:13]

User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6137 times:

Quoting Star_world (Reply 18):
I think you'd still be wishing that about the FAs long after you landed on that nice comfy 763

I've crossed the Atlantic 137 times in the last 3 years - about 1/3 of those were on CO 752s, the remainder were CO 762/4s, BA 772s, AF 332s, and (twice) DL 763s. The DL experiences are the only ones that stand out in my mind as bad experiences Not a single fuel stop on a 752 either - I've flown every route that CO operates them on - which would be a statistical impossibility if you listened to the opinions here.

Don't knock it till you try it

Thats funny, I've crossed the Atlantic a few dozen times in the past few years on Delta and never once had a bad experience. This will be my 1st trip over the big pond on CO and on a 75 none-the-less. I'll admit, I'm a little skeptical about it but I will keep an open mind and will file a full TR when I return with tons of pictures.

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 20):
Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 10):
What was I thinking?

Guess this is not your seat then?







Oh, and by the way as far as business class cabins go over the pond this has to be at the bottom of the spectrum as far as seat pitch and seat recline go although I believe seat width is about industry standard. A while ago CO had a special to fly business/first RT from EWR to BCN for $2,000.00. Not to bad but I didnt think that was worth the money when looking at their 757 business/first seat specifications. To each his own I guess.

[Edited 2008-06-29 10:44:33]

User currently offlineLaxboeingman From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5308 times:



Quoting Medic2366 (Thread starter):
just a fuel stop.........nothing new.

How is this nothing new. Since when do the airlines not put enough fuel in the aircraft. Did they do this knowingly?

Quoting Medic2366 (Thread starter):
is this due to high gas prices and not filling up the planes as much as they used to... i.e flying with minimum allowable fuel?

If it is knowingly, how do the airlines get away with it.

laxboeingman



The real American classics: LAX and Boeing.
25 DiscoverCSG : That, ironically, is a CO 764 BF cabin.
26 CMHfreqflyer : Not sure what you are comparing - I've done CO BusinessFirst to Europe and back on both 767 and 757. The seat comfort and service were outstanding in
27 Astuteman : On the other hand, flying from MAN - EWR this month (on a CO 757), we got a 45 minute guided tour of the area 75 miles north of New York, which was g
28 Jumbojet : the comparison is regarding CO's business/first product on there international aircraft, 757, 767-200 and 400 and 777-200. The point I was trying to
29 CMHfreqflyer : OK - I understand what you are saying. I've only flown in Y class on a CO 777, so unfortunately I'm not able to compare to the 757 and 767. As far as
30 Iahflyr : Way overboard on the topic of this thread.....Emergency??? Come on kids, this has nothing to do with an emergency.
31 RobertS975 : Chris, I don't know for sure but I am betting this has more to do with single engine climb gradient than anything else. Perhaps when the takeoff runw
32 ChrisNH : I wouldn't doubt that in a second; I believe you're right. In the end, I didn't want to imply that the BGR stop is anything other than very sporadic.
33 Post contains links Lambert747 : This thread somehow has turned into another Delta vs Continental Airlines debate. What does Delta Air Lines Flight Attendants, Delta Air Lines 767's,
34 Letsgetwet : I am a a Foreign Language speaking FA and work for CO. I fly (almost) exclusively to HAM (757), CGN (757), TXL(757) , 5 times /month. In the past year
35 OPNLguy : Amen to that! You need to better understand airline ops, young Jedi. Airlines do not "fill-up" aircraft like they were cars, and fuel loads are missi
36 IAHFLYR :
37 Dispatchguy : Plus, across the North Atlantic track system, if it is possible to not get the track and altitude that you filed for; if you get held lower - youre g
38 AA737-823 : It's nothing new in that fuel stops have been occurring since the early 1920's. Nearly a hundred years equates to "nothing new". And, anytime you rea
39 SeaBosDca : If you have nothing better to do than get hysterical over occasional diversions, it would be better to direct your anger at the idiots who thought th
40 OPNLguy : Damn Pilgrims; they shoulda known that the airspace could never support that level of IFR traffic...
41 Tommy767 : This has unfortunately turned into another DL Vs. CO thread. Realistically take your pic: A DL 763 with no PTVs or a CO 757 possibly with them. The f
42 WesternA318 : So....back when 707s and DC-8s hopped the pond, were they not of the same size as a 757, or did they magically have 2 aisles? What does the size of p
43 OPNLguy : Isn't it clear that we're not talking physical size of the aircraft here, but performance capabilities, and that the operational capability of the 75
44 AA737-823 : No no no, you've got me all wrong. I was comparing the 757 to, say, an A380. The 757 carrying fewer souls is clearly of less concern than an A380, he
45 Ikramerica : No, a fuel emergency is when you don't stop in Bangor when you needed to... It isn't the longest, but it is "less polar" than TXL, which can be a bad
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