Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 4886 times:
I predict that the compensation due SQ for the 787 delays will be settled by exercise of 777-300ER options at steeply discounted prices. An alternative possibility is low priced freighters.
DL767captain From United States, joined Mar 2007, 1717 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 4883 times:
That makes sense to exercise some 773s but when would they actually arrive. What would be smart is to get some cheap rates on 748Fs or 777Fs and just be patient for the 787s.
Singapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13606 posts, RR: 25 Reply 2, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 4846 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Thread starter): I predict that the compensation due SQ for the 787 delays will be
settled by exercise of 777-300ER options at steeply discounted prices.
I concur with your prediction.
Singapore Airlines has 13 Boeing 777-300ER options.
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Kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 8577 posts, RR: 34 Reply 3, posted (1 year 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 4787 times:
I think SQ could be in a very good negotiating position here, much better than BA and QF (also rumoured to be interested in 77Ws), because it also has 330s on order. Sure, Boeing would like to keep all carriers happy, especially the "blue chip" ones, but it also wants to keep to its 777 production rate plan.
While the 77W obviously has a distinct range advantage over the 333, the fact is that many of SQ's 777s are used on relatively short flights within Asia and to India and Australia; the 333 IGWs could replace the 777-200ERs on many of these routes, releasing these aircraft for more suitable long haul work; so, SIA could play Airbus against Boeing more effectively than QF or BA could. If it can't get the 777s when it wants them, it can get A330s. Sure, the 330 production line is very busy, but SQ can ask "who loves us more?".
That said, I would be very surprised if at some stage in the future, SQ didn't convert some or all of its 77W orders.
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Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 4, posted (1 year 5 months 8 hours ago) and read 4695 times:
My understanding is that SQ's 777-300ER options give them right of refusal to delivery slots. It looks to me like it's just a question of price. Boeing would naturally prefer to lower the option exercise prices than to pay SQ cash compensation.
That would make sense. I have wondered why they haven't exercised their options before. Some of them may even have lapsed, they've sat on them for some years, while CX on the contrary was very quick to exercise 77W options. I doubt whether SQ will take freighters as compensation, the 777F seems to be too small for their cargo organisation, and oddly enough SQ's CEO said the 747-8F wasn't very appealing to them - I would have thought it would have been a perfect fit
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 3): 333 IGWs could replace the 777-200ERs on many of these routes, releasing these aircraft for more suitable long haul work
But are SQ's first batch of 772 not due for retirement? SQ prefers to sell their planes before their first C-check, and the oldest 772 is 11 years old now... close to that C-check, isn't it?
Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 5): Well, there is one order for 10 and one for 15 777-300ERs listed as unidentified in Boeing's books.
Any chance one of these are Singapore? The order for 10 was last November and the order for 15 was this March.
Actually, it's 15 last November (rumoured to be CA) and 10 this March. The latter one is also behind the UFO order for 35 789's, and I don't think SQ is behind an order of that magnitude.
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Travelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3577 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8): Yes, probably starting next year. There are 20 777-200ERs and 5 777-300s coming up for retirement over the next few years.
... and these will be replaced by........ (787/A350?)!
SQ have 36 772/772ER's in their fleet at present.
I am not sure if they are going to replace these aircraft with one aircraft type/model or if they are going to use a variety of aircraft (787/A350).
They also have A330's coming in on short term leases. I'd suggest these will be used to replace some of the early 772's????
I see SQ still have two 777-300ER's to be delivered. Will these be used to replace existing aircraft (747) or for growth?
Did SQ announce they were going to retire the 744's by 20..?
Are the 744's being replaced by 777-300ER's or A380's?
It looks like their fleet of 744's were delivered between 1994 and 2001 meaning some of those aircraft are already 14 years old.
Their current fleet is fairly young giving them a whole lot of flexibility, so I would suggest unless the 777-300ER is in their plans long term they would be better off taking a monetary payment from Boeing for compensation rather than cheap 777-300ER's????......, but if they are going to retire the 744 fleet early, than they may need some extra lift to fill the void created by delays in the 787.
.... and we also have to remember that there may be another delay with future A380's compounding on SQ's fleet plans.
I can't find any information on SQ having options for the 777. Maybe somebody else can help out.
I am not familiar with SQ, but the thread starter does raise another interesting question. What airlines currently have options for the 777 and who is likely to exercise them?
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3155 times:
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): ... and these will be replaced by........ (787/A350?)!
No, the 787s and A350s will arrive too late to replace this first batch of 20 777-200ERs and 5 777-300s. They will be replaced by 19 A330-300s. Considering that the A330-300s have less capacity and considering the need for growth and that SQ currently have a capacity shortage, SQ very soon need to place an additional order for at least a dozen aircraft that can be delivered soon. I suggest that only A330-300s or 777-300ERs are well-suited and that SQ will take 777-300ERs.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): SQ have 36 772/772ER's in their fleet at present.
SQ have 46 777-200ERs at present.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): I am not sure if they are going to replace these aircraft with one aircraft type/model or if they are going to use a variety of aircraft (787/A350).
If history is any indication, SQ are likely to operate the 787 and A350 together for a few years, then choose one and order several dozen more while quickly selling off the other one.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): They also have A330's coming in on short term leases. I'd suggest these will be used to replace some of the early 772's????
Yes.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): I see SQ still have two 777-300ER's to be delivered. Will these be used to replace existing aircraft (747) or for growth?
9V-SWT is the only 777-300ER remaining to be delivered to SQ. There are three more JumboJets to be retired from the fleet (they have already been sold) before 31 March 2009. Only one WhaleJet, 9V-SKF is certain to join the fleet by that date, though 9V-SKG and 9V-SKH will be close. I would say that 9V-SWT should be thought of as replacing a JumboJet, though it had been intended for growth before the fifth WhaleJet delay.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): Did SQ announce they were going to retire the 744's by 20..?
I don't know that there has been a public announcement, but SQ have already sold all their passenger JumboJets and the last one is set to the leave the fleet in 2011, IIRC.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): .... and we also have to remember that there may be another delay with future A380's compounding on SQ's fleet plans.
A sixth delay?!? Let's hope not, though Airbus need to rationalize their ramp-up plan. When announcing their fifth delay, they backed off from ramping to 4x monthly but did not announce a new target. Based on sales, Airbus should be producing 2 to 3 WhaleJets per month to draw down the order backlog.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 10): I can't find any information on SQ having options for the 777. Maybe somebody else can help out.
SQ took 13 777-300ER options when they ordered 18 777-300ERs a few years ago.
Carls From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 352 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2992 times:
In aviation news there was an article about John Leahy where he said that Chew Choon Seng was under conversation with Airbus for the acquisition of some A330 as an interim lift solution due to the 787 delay. Choon was trying to get an early slot for his order.
This make more sense than the 777, the T7 is bigger than the 787, while the A330 is almost the same size. Time will tell us.
I will try to post the link to Aviation New as soon I find it.
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 15, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2851 times:
Quoting AF022 (Reply 12): What is SQ's plans for retiring their B747-400s? Aren't they upgrading them to 77Ws?
27 of SQ's 747-400s have been replaced by 5 WhaleJets, 18 777-300ERs, and a handful of 777-200ERs (the latter cannot be considered one-for-one replacements). 3 more are set to go by 31 March 2009 and the remaining 12 by 2011.
Yes, of course. Thank you! I've corrected it above.
Quoting Carls (Reply 14): In aviation news there was an article about John Leahy where he said that Chew Choon Seng was under conversation with Airbus for the acquisition of some A330 as an interim lift solution due to the 787 delay. Choon was trying to get an early slot for his order.
As always, SQ are playing Airbus and Boeing off against each other for the best deal.
Quoting Carls (Reply 14): This make more sense than the 777, the T7 is bigger than the 787, while the A330 is almost the same size.
Yes, but the 777 is nearer the size of the 777s being replaced. I don't think SQ care too much whether the aircraft are a bit smaller or a bit larger. Either aircraft would solve the capacity problem, both are good aircraft and have fleet commonality, so SQ are just going after the best deal. In this case, I think Boeing will be more motivated because they want to avoid the embarrassing precedent of making cash compensation payments for late 787 deliveries. Another possible factor favoring the 777-300ER over the A330-300 is that SQ's greatest capacity crunch is to Europe.
Travelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 256 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 702 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11): SQ have 46 777-200ERs at present
Yes, you are correct!
Under normal circumstances would you expect SQ to take all options on the 777?
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 11): 9V-SWT is the only 777-300ER remaining to be delivered to SQ.
The Boeing web site shows an order for one sole 777-300ER in 2001 and 18 in 2004. The web site shows deliveries for 17 777-300ER's. The Singapore Aviation Authority aircraft register also shows 17 777-300ER's on the register. Maybe the order for one was converted from another type?
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 678 times:
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 16): Under normal circumstances would you expect SQ to take all options on the 777?
Not necessarily. SQ often take options and then don't exercise them. The A340-500 options are the most recent example. Now, however, they have a capacity crunch and need to take something. The A330-300 and 777-300ER are the only plausible aircraft for SQ that are available quickly.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 16): The web site shows deliveries for 17 777-300ER's. The Singapore Aviation Authority aircraft register also shows 17 777-300ER's on the register. Maybe the order for one was converted from another type?
9V-SWS was delivered 28 June 2008 and probably isn't yet reflected in the lists you're looking at.
Quoting Travelhound (Reply 16): I only know of delays that are widely reported in the media, so I was referring to the fifth delay!
The first delay was announced April 2005 and is often papered over. At that time it was announced that SQ would get the first WhaleJet two months late.
AF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 1817 posts, RR: 2 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 619 times:
Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15): 3 more are set to go by 31 March 2009 and the remaining 12 by 2011.
Are airlines having trouble dumping 747s since fuel prices exploded? Not long ago getting widebody capacity was tough, but now there are lots of 747s on the market.
I would assume that SQ aircraft are in better shape than most?
Zvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10187 posts, RR: 71 Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 601 times:
Quoting AF022 (Reply 18): Are airlines having trouble dumping 747s since fuel prices exploded? Not long ago getting widebody capacity was tough, but now there are lots of 747s on the market.
I understand SQ completed sales contracts for all of them last year.
Quoting AF022 (Reply 18): I would assume that SQ aircraft are in better shape than most?
I would not assume that. I would assume that the MX that has been done has been done correctly, but I would also expect that a lot of MX will be due shortly after transfer to the new owners. I suspect most of the buyers would want to have the MX done by someone less expensive than SQ.
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I don't think SQ care too much whether the aircraft are a bit smaller or a bit larger. Either aircraft would solve the capacity problem, both are good aircraft and have fleet commonality, so SQ are just going after the best deal. In this case, I think Boeing will be more motivated because they want to avoid the embarrassing precedent of making cash compensation payments for late 787 deliveries. Another possible factor favoring the 777-300ER over the A330-300 is that SQ's greatest capacity crunch is to Europe.
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