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Medical Helicopters Collide Over Flagstaff, AZ  
User currently offlineMMEPHX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2247 times:

7 Dead plus at least 3 injured.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25446869

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Yeah just read it . Another midair in AZ!!! Helicopter midair collisions are not that uncommon. Very sad though.


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User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2219 times:



Quoting MMEPHX (Thread starter):
7 Dead plus at least 3 injured.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25446869

Oh my God.  sorry 



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineSFOnative From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2221 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 1):
Helicopter midair collisions are not that uncommon

Are you sure about that? I want to believe that is not true.....  Sad


User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7443 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2176 times:
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Actually not t he first time I have heard about a medical chopper going down after a rescue either. Its a sad reality.


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User currently offlineNWA742 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

Damn, that's horrible. May the victims RIP.

Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 4):
Actually not t he first time I have heard about a medical chopper going down after a rescue either. Its a sad reality.

It recently happened somewhere in Texas - not a midair, but had a patient on board.




-NWA742


User currently offlineMedAv From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

These medivac crashes have seemingly become much more common, though I don't know if they're actually increased when corrected for the increased rate of use. Regardless, the rapid expansion of the use of helicopters in medicine needs to be scrutinized.

Some analysis in a recent ABC news article.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/print?id=5037096


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2141 times:



Quoting SFOnative (Reply 3):
Are you sure about that? I want to believe that is not true.....

I should rephrase my statement, while overall they are uncommon, Collisions do happen from time to time with helicopters when talking off and landing from the same LZ. Or when working in close proximity with other helicopters. the military comes to mind as well. But yes overall helos are very safe...Sorry about my first post .



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User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2076 times:



Quoting MedAv (Reply 6):
These medivac crashes have seemingly become much more common, though I don't know if they're actually increased when corrected for the increased rate of use. Regardless, the rapid expansion of the use of helicopters in medicine needs to be scrutinized.

I wanted to touch on this as well While it seems that EMS crashes are on the rise, I would like to point out the growth of airborne EMS, now in more remote locations accross America. And helicopters don't have the luxury of a cat3 ILS when landing at the corner of Elm and Oak st. Airborne EMS is highly scrutinized, and utilize good high(er) time pilots.



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User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

Air Methods and Classic Helicopters of Utah were the operators.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 5):
It recently happened somewhere in Texas - not a midair, but had a patient on board.

IIRC, this is the 8th in the last 6 months.


User currently offlineXJETFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

We just had one crash in Texas and 4 died. They just did a special on the news this week about the risk in air ambulances.

I almost prefer to go by ground and take my chances. On the other hand, Life Flight at Herman Hospital in Houston has only had two crashes and 3 deaths in over 12,000 flights.

I think some of the maintenance on these helicopters needs to be improved.


User currently offlinePatches From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2046 times:

XJETFLYER: The maintence is not the problem man, in all the recent crashes they were pilot error. The lacrosse Wi one a few months back he just flew into a hill, the other one in texas was not a maintence problem and the one today was just pilot error. These birds are all maintened very well.

User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5001 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

I know a few medical helicopter pilots, and they are the cream of the crop when it comes to knowing how to fly choppers. One would be very surprised on how little air time these guys and gals get, but how often they are heroes. It is very sad, and I send my deepest sympathies to those that are affected.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineMax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1148 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1987 times:



Quoting XJETFlyer (Reply 10):
I almost prefer to go by ground and take my chances.

How many ambulance crashes resulting in fatalities have there been in the recent past?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

FLG was the last place I ever thought that a mid-air accident would happen. FLGians are pretty good people, as a matter of fact!


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19416 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1914 times:



Quoting MedAv (Reply 6):
These medivac crashes have seemingly become much more common, though I don't know if they're actually increased when corrected for the increased rate of use. Regardless, the rapid expansion of the use of helicopters in medicine needs to be scrutinized.

Also, like other air accidents, they seem to come in clusters...


User currently offlineSFOnative From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 209 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1908 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 7):
Or when working in close proximity with other helicopters.

This is an instance that I can understand, such the last incident in AZ with the two new choppers who were "jockying" for position to cover the story on the ground. Thier focus was understandably (to an extent) in the wrong place.  Sad


User currently offlineMedAv From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1870 times:



Quoting Patches (Reply 11):
The maintence is not the problem man, in all the recent crashes they were pilot error.

I haven't analyzed the numbers but it does seem this is the case. That ABC news story I linked above said something like 80% of 2007 crashes happened at night.

Also, that recent crash in Houston, if you watch the video in that article, the guy being interviewed says that his company whose choppers are equipped with a full electronic package refused to take that call (i'm assuming the weather was not safe for flight), but another company did take it, with a helicopter without terrain avoidance, etc. This points to widespread privatization of this industry has led to some shoddy practices that need to be straightened out by the FAA.


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1804 times:



Quoting SFOnative (Reply 16):
This is an instance that I can understand, such the last incident in AZ with the two new choppers who were "jockying" for position to cover the story on the ground. Thier focus was understandably (to an extent) in the wrong place.

This same type of incident plauges Airborne Law Enforcement as well, and most Departments go to great lengths through training to prevent this type of incident from happening.

Quoting MedAv (Reply 17):
with a helicopter without terrain avoidance

Many helicopters aren't even IFR certified, no less a GPWS!

Quoting MedAv (Reply 17):
This points to widespread privatization of this industry has led to some shoddy practices that need to be straightened out by the FAA.

That just BS helicopters operate under the same FAR's, and they operate under the same part 91 or part 135 as commercial airplanes do. The every day type of missions EMS helicopter pilots find themselves in are remote, often in the dark, marginal weather, with little to to no pre planning for the flight.

And as far as shoddy practices that you claim I have yet to see them...in the EMS world anyway.



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User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1729 times:

And just the day before, a medi-vac based here in Prescott crashed as well, 3 injuries, as it was approaching an emergency scene just outside of Ashfork. Ashfork is about 50 miles north of Prescott, 50 miles west of Flagstaff on I40. Crashed happened about 4am as it was preparing to land at the scene of a motorcycle accident, so other emergency personnel were already onsite, but back to back accidents so close to one another.

User currently offlineMedAv From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1611 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 18):

The every day type of missions EMS helicopter pilots find themselves in are remote, often in the dark, marginal weather, with little to to no pre planning for the flight.


And that is exactly the problem. They might be playing hero a little too much with too little equipment. In that story I mentioned, one company obviously found it dangerous to go out to that scene, but another decided to take the risk and crashed. The question is of course, and I leave it to the experts to conclude on, was it shoddy practice, heroism or both?


User currently offlineDragon6172 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1594 times:

I think another thing to think about is many of these EMS helos operate single pilot. At night, marginal weather, unknown landing zones, all make for a very heavy task load. Another pilot may help.


Phrogs Phorever
User currently offlineSpeedbird2263 From Jamaica, joined Jul 2006, 470 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Excuse the ignorance however, isn't TCAS a requirement for commercial helo ops? If not I certainly think the FAA should look into it being a requirement.


Straight'n Up 'N Fly Right Son ;)
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1484 times:



Quoting Speedbird2263 (Reply 22):
Excuse the ignorance however, isn't TCAS a requirement for commercial helo ops? If not I certainly think the FAA should look into it being a requirement.

No it is not. Nor is it required for commercial fixed wing ops .

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 21):
I think another thing to think about is many of these EMS helos operate single pilot. At night, marginal weather, unknown landing zones, all make for a very heavy task load. Another pilot may help.

Correct! You make a great point, And while many operators due use a two pilot program, many can't due to aircraft size, and cost. The latter should not be an issue, but let's face it it is.



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User currently offlineBravoGolf From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 538 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1459 times:



Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 18):
. The every day type of missions EMS helicopter pilots find themselves in are remote, often in the dark, marginal weather, with little to to no pre planning for the flight.

After a rash of crashes a few years ago, the Medivac Industry took a good hard look at itself. They found that the pilots were being pressured to fly in less than marginal weather. That problem was solved with a realistic look at the dangers involved not just "think about the poor patient" The attitude at the time was to do the mission no matter what.


User currently offlineAA777LVR From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 209 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1420 times:

Being from the MSN area I remember the local news reports after the UW Hospitals (N135UW) chopper went down near LSE mentioned the chopper was operated by a larger company out of Colorado. Apparently this company operates many medical chopper operations. Any idea if either or both of the choppers involved in yesterday's crash belong to this same company? If so, it's been a sad couple of months. I what additional scrutiny they'll be under for future ops?

-AA777LVR


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