Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Frontier Post $22.0mil Net Loss In May08  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24813 posts, RR: 46
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9614 times:

Frontier today filed its monthly consolidated financials for May 2008 with the bankruptcy court.
Operating loss for the month of May was $16.5mil, with a net loss of $22.0mil.

Cash on hand at the end of May was $110.1mil, up from $99.8mil from the end of April, and reflects a $59.1mil gain from the sale of property. Of the cash and cash equivalents, $100.5mil is considered restricted.

This loss is in addition to previously reported $16.5mil foss for the last 20 days of April.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
140 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9600 times:

Wow...so if I am reading this right, they have roughly $10M to play with unless they are able to sell the additional A/C they have mentioned or free up some of the restricted cash. Does anyone know how willing their BK judge might be on the issue?

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9487 times:

Barring a miracle, tis airline won't see the light of 2009.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineB6fll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9458 times:

A couple more rounds of WN expansion at DEN then you can probaly stick a fork in F9.

[Edited 2008-06-30 18:10:21]

User currently offlineDaCubbyBearBar From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9449 times:

Do they have more cash on hand because they didn't pay their lease for 60 days? The lease payments were made in June, after the end of the month numbers for May.


Go Cubs Go Hey Chicago whaddya say the Cubs are gonna win today
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9396 times:



Quoting B6fll (Reply 3):
A couple more rounds of WN expansion at DEN then you can probaly stick a fork in F9.

 banghead  Once again, as in other threads, WN is NOT killing off F9! Lets stop this nonsense, please!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1882 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9366 times:

I just hope they last til August 17th.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5930 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9360 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Once again, as in other threads, WN is NOT killing off F9! Lets stop this nonsense, please!

No Oil is killing F9, however WN is not helping....



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUadc8contrail From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1782 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9348 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Quoting B6fll (Reply 3):
A couple more rounds of WN expansion at DEN then you can probaly stick a fork in F9.

Once again, as in other threads, WN is NOT killing off F9! Lets stop this nonsense, please!

Airframe,
what is exactly going to get frontier turned around.....WN is killing both UAL and F9 in denver
whether anyone wants to admit or not.



bus driver.......move that bus:)
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4985 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9334 times:



Quoting B6fll (Reply 3):
A couple more rounds of WN expansion at DEN then you can probaly stick a fork in F9.

Please keep the fork comments to yourself. I certainly hope you don't have to face such a difficult situation with B6. Sadly, you may be fending rude comments like this in the very near future. You too may find your airline in bankruptcy, and even unemployed. Not a very comforting thought, is it?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Once again, as in other threads, WN is NOT killing off F9! Lets stop this nonsense, please!

Yup, it is getting old.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9318 times:



Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 8):
Airframe,
what is exactly going to get frontier turned around.....WN is killing both UAL and F9 in denver
whether anyone wants to admit or not.



Quoting United1 (Reply 7):
No Oil is killing F9, however WN is not helping....

the fact that WN is not paying "rack rates" for jet fuel gives them the ability to go after weak players like F9 and UA.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4985 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9308 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
the fact that WN is not paying "rack rates" for jet fuel gives them the ability to go after weak players like F9 and UA.

And when their hedges end, they too will be in very serious trouble. But, for everyones sake, lets pray this oil finally bursts.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 794 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9266 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 11):
And when their hedges end, they too will be in very serious trouble.

Not necessarily. WN has some very smart people at the helm, who know not to nickel-and-dime customers to death, while at the same time, gradually increase fares (when necessary) to compensate for high oil. They will find a way to balance their diminishing hedges and high oil with reasonable (but not overwhelming) fare increases.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9259 times:



Quoting DaCubbyBearBar (Reply 4):
Do they have more cash on hand because they didn't pay their lease for 60 days? The lease payments were made in June, after the end of the month numbers for May.

The $20-30m lease payment came due, the credit card company went to 100% holdback, fuel is now at an all time high (again) with no hedges, AND Southwest added a bunch more destinations.

I guarantee you $100 million is not still restricted since their cash position has fallen below that. I'm guessing they are now at $85-90 million.

I have one more question about those numbers...they had :
99.8 million starting cash
+59.1 million gain
-16.5 million operating loss
=142.5 million cash

110.1 million Actual cash

32.4 million is "missing". That might be the increased credit card holdback. So, basically they used $49 million in one month.  Wow!

Quoting Uadc8contrail (Reply 8):
Airframe,
WN is killing both UAL and F9 in denver whether anyone wants to admit or not.

I think in order to preserve clam in this thread you should say: "Southwest is hugging them to death through a continuous series of coincidental service increases".


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

I just read the whole filing. The $100 million in restricted cash is separate from the $110 million unrestricted. The $100 million is largely the pre-existing credit card holdback. The newly increased holdback has not been attached yet. That means the unrestricted cash position may now be even lower.

On the good news front, it appears that Airbus is going to give back their PDPs (pre-delivery deposits) on future orders. I'm not sure how much that amounts to, but it was approved in the docket today.


User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9183 times:



Quoting Enilria (Reply 13):
32.4 million is "missing". That might be the increased credit card holdback. So, basically they used $49 million in one month.

I found out what the $32m is. It would appear that they took in $59m on the sale of airplanes, but owed $32m in debt that had to be repaid. Thus, they only netted $27 million.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13508 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9167 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
the fact that WN is not paying "rack rates" for jet fuel gives them the ability to go after weak players like F9 and UA

I think you meant the spot market rate - I believe "rack rates" are a term for hotels, not fuel.

And technically, WN does pay the spot rate - they're just reimbursed later in the year under their forward contracts, or "hedges." Any airline that hedges still pays the going rate now - they're just paid back later if their hedges pay off.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineN174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9169 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 11):
And when their hedges end, they too will be in very serious trouble



Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 12):
Not necessarily. WN has some very smart people at the helm, who know not to nickel-and-dime customers to death, while at the same time, gradually increase fares (when necessary) to compensate for high oil. They will find a way to balance their diminishing hedges and high oil with reasonable (but not overwhelming) fare increases.

There's actually an article on MSNBC today about WN's hedging activities. They gradually will end by 2012, so quite a while yet. They even did a good job (by MSNBC standards, that is) of explaining the nuts and bolts of hedging, using calls and puts.

Enjoy: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25419436/


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1257 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9115 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 9):
Please keep the fork comments to yourself. I certainly hope you don't have to face such a difficult situation with B6. Sadly, you may be fending rude comments like this in the very near future. You too may find your airline in bankruptcy, and even unemployed. Not a very comforting thought, is it?

You can't take comments about an airline - employer or not - personally.

Quite frankly, Frontier is in an absolutely dire situation and its employees should be thankful to get a check at the end of each pay period. There is nothing wrong with discussing the future of the company, even in a light hearted manner.

The 5 Stages of Grieving
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance


User currently offlinePITops From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9094 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
Once again, as in other threads, WN is NOT killing off F9! Lets stop this nonsense, please!

WN just smells blood and is moving in for the takeover.



Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
User currently offlineB6fll From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9042 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 9):
Please keep the fork comments to yourself. I certainly hope you don't have to face such a difficult situation with B6. Sadly, you may be fending rude comments like this in the very near future. You too may find your airline in bankruptcy, and even unemployed. Not a very comforting thought, is it?

Believe me I have to defend myself all the time on here. I get my share of harassment on here. I get banned for everything while everyone just runs there mouth. Sadly I am sure sooner or later I will have to face the same situation as F9.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 9):
Yup, it is getting old.

Its just the facts. WN is a monster. Anyimte B6 goes against them they get pushed around too. Its no disrespect just the truth. Thats why I am seriously considering making a move to WN!!!

[Edited 2008-06-30 20:13:23]

User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7036 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9002 times:



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 18):
You can't take comments about an airline - employer or not - personally.

Agreed. Frontier isn't a loved one with cancer. It is a company and this board exists to discuss these types of things.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8956 times:



Quoting B6fll (Reply 20):
Anyimte B6 goes against them they get pushed around too.

You got that backwards. What is really going on is "Anytime WN goes against anyone, those players get pushed around by WN." But the fact is, WN is going after UA.

It is sad, however, to see how every single darn F9 thread turns into a "WN killing F9" within the first 4 posts. A.net members must have some weird hatred for F9 and I just wonder why. Its really sad....really!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8912 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
But the fact is, WN is going after UA.

That is the truth..

IAD, MDW(ORD), SFO, DEN, LAX..

Southwest Airlines has United on the brain, like it or not..

Quoting B6fll (Reply 3):
A couple more rounds of WN expansion at DEN then you can probaly stick a fork in F9

There is/was a United Airlines "airline within and airline" known as TED. It was brought in to fend off the likes of Frontier and Southwest Airlines. It didn't work, and TED is going back home. Like it or not United Airlines has the red X on it and Southwest Airlines has its ammunition in place. Southwest and Frontier can fight out the Denver market. United has a problem that isnt just in Denver, it is in all of its other hub markets. That being Southwest Airlines.

The "fork" comment was a little rude..

Quoting B6fll (Reply 20):
Thats why I am seriously considering making a move to WN!!!

Lets hope Southwest Airlines doesnt start hiring for Flight Attendants anytime soon ...


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24813 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8892 times:



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
But the fact is, WN is going after UA.



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
It is sad, however, to see how every single darn F9 thread turns into a "WN killing F9" within the first 4 posts

How about we agree that what WN does at DEN, can result in collateral damage to F9? Which could cause some harm?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
A.net members must have some weird hatred for F9 and I just wonder why.

I dont think people hate F9 parse.

In my own personal opinion however, F9 is one airline whose loss would not be felt, as frankly I really dont see what they have to offer except provide lots of East>West capacity across the country as does just about every airline there is.
While many seem to be enthralled with the carrier, and its "Spirit of West" frankly sorry to say dont I see much special about it except some creative tails. And this is not from from some random commentator, as I've had dealing with F9 on/off since about 1999.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
25 United1 : Prove it.....show me one shred of evidence that WN is going after UA. I bet you cant find any just as none exists that WN is going after F9. What I f
26 Lambert747 : It is the markets that Southwest Airlines are in, have opened, and expanded in recent years: SFO, LAX, MDW(ORD), IAD, DEN I dont think the pattern ca
27 Iloveboeing : It seems that way, given how they've moved into and/or rapidly built up service in UA's key markets. If/when UA goes under, WN and F9 (presuming it s
28 Sxf24 : More like WN has higher-yield, strong O&D markets on its mind. There's a reason UA was successful for so many years...
29 Lambert747 : Exactly, and now I dont think it is a stretch to see the strongest TED markets maintain a heavy Southwest Airlines presence while TED gets rolled bac
30 Caribbean484 : F9 is in trouble and we all must admit it, the mere fact is if it was not then they would not have been in Chapter 11 protection now would they. Every
31 TylerDurden : It's nothing personal---the forum is to discuss airline issues. Yours is in bankruptcy. By many measurements, it won't survive. You can't try to dict
32 Enilria : Maybe it's misinterpreted hatred of WN and not hatred of F9. WN is playing cards with 3 aces up its sleeve. In terms of the UA vs. F9 target issue. Y
33 B6fll : Dont quit your day job, because you definetly dont have a career as a comedian.
34 United1 : SFO/OAK 1989 MDW/ORD 1985 BWI/IAD 1993 LAX 1982 DEN 2006 Of UAs hub markets WN has had a presence in the same metropolitan area in four out of the fi
35 Caribbean484 : Wishful thinking because UA is not going anywhere before F9, it would be the other way around, if/when F9 goes under, WN and UA will battle for DEN.
36 NZblue : Tell that to the employees.
37 Iloveboeing : Yeah, either way could happen but, as you said, it would most likely be F9 going before UA. It would be an interesting battle for DEN.
38 Mattnrsa : United has been competing against Southwest in most of its hubs for many years. Even though they recently entered SFO and IAD, United has been compet
39 LAXintl : Sure on a personal basis for some it would be a loss, however I stand by the assertion that on a macro scale F9 living or dying would barely be a bli
40 F9Animal : It would be awful for the DEN crowd. F9 came in with little chance of surviving against UA. Boy, did they prove the nay sayers wrong. F9 started with
41 Flyibaby : I can certainly relate to what you are saying. Many of us on here, myself included, have a special place in our heart for one particular airline we h
42 TxAgKuwait : There's a story that, shortly after becoming Prime Minister...Margaret Thatcher was scheduled to appear at a function with Queen Elizabeth II. Her off
43 EA CO AS : WN isn't going after F9. They're going after DEN. The fact that F9's bread and butter is there is incidental.
44 DaCubbyBearBar : Does anyone else find it funny/ironic that F9's new CFO is Ted?? I kind of thought this topic was about F9's May losses.
45 FlyPNS1 : The operating loss of $16.5 million in May is pretty alarming. That kind of burn rate in a relatively strong month is a bad sign. I can't remember the
46 Enilria : If F9 had managed to stay out of Ch11, UA would probably be taking a much dimmer view of Denver, but with F9 in Ch11 they have every reason to wait i
47 Avek00 : Without an absolute 180 to the financial picture, F9 will likely plunge into oblivion during the fall, once the summer traffic dies down and before t
48 VictorKilo : And that's why I continue to follow F9. It has been fascinating to watch a little airline, struggling with high oil prices and competition, fight for
49 Frontierflyer : F9 should probably just ditch all the airbuses and load up on q400s and start feeding other airlines. Even Detroit is having to rethink their whole bu
50 Enilria : I don't know about the Airbus part, but certainly Lynx could be the heir to Frontier by flying for CO or UA. That would be ironic given that starting
51 LAXintl : The 10 Q400s were part of the list of 22 planes that F9 has the right to terminate agreements over on September 2nd.
52 Lambert747 : Perhaps yes, and perhaps no. There is talk going around that Frontier Airlines is going to drastically downsize in order to remain afloat. Part of th
53 KingCavalier : Every thread about F9 turns into a WN is out to kill F9 thread. F9's problems are oil, not WN. Frontier would be making literally hundreds of millions
54 TylerDurden : As Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, and many others learned...you can't shrink yourself into profitability. I think it's impossible to deny that WN has had
55 Rampart : As Continental and America West learned, you can shrink yourself into profitability. Both retracted during or following bankruptcy, as part of the re
56 Avek00 : Correction -- an airline CAN shrink itself into profitability IF its operation can be rightsized around a set of LUCRATIVE *assets* that generate VIA
57 EXAAUADL : This get s so old. F9 will die due to oil, not WN. WN is in all liklihood simply positioning themselves for a F9 die off. By this time next year WN w
58 PITops : Sorry. I didn't mean to make this sound so harsh. What I meant was that we aren't going directly after F9. We are just adding flights and planning ah
59 Rampart : CO's first prominent downsizing took place before they had a EWR hub. They shrank to the point of near invisibility, and came back. Interestingly, th
60 Caribbean484 : Why do some believe that F9 would be making a killing if it was not for oil, please come again, F9 never made a profit since 2004 when oil was US$50,
61 Enilria : Based upon May results, F9 lost $16.5 million on the operating line. If you remove the gain from the sale of assets they lost $25.7 million. Their fu
62 AirportGuy1971 : Sean Menke was not the CEO between 2004 and 2007. The cuts and changes he instituted began when oil was trading at $72/bbl. Had oil not shot up so dr
63 Caribbean484 : Ted did what it exactly intended to do, that is weaken many of UAs major hub competitors. They did a great job at IAD and DEN with the weakness of F9
64 United1 : You can break it down a little further then that even, during the April 10th to April 30th period F9 spend on average 1.38 million a day on fuel, fro
65 Yellowtail : no because they will just raise prices...and everyone will follow. and with CO entering Star perhaps CO sees it too. CO might want to take UA's place
66 Phxmkeflyer : Where's Mariner? A F9 thread with no response from Mariner is simply not an F9 thread in my book
67 F9Animal : I am sure Mariner is just as tired of the same old doom and gloom of F9 in these threads. A few posts back, he did mention his dismay the constant ba
68 LAXintl : Very valid point. F9 has historically had rater anemic earnings with most quarters being touch and go, with continued annual losses. Really begs the
69 Frontierflyer : LH could sure use a higher quality partner in the US. He's probably tired of the endless nonsense. People seem to think he has some crystal ball, and
70 KochamLOT : What needs to happen is some liquidation of airlines. No one wants to see their airline liquidated but it might help everyone else out...and maybe UAL
71 AirFrnt : First of all, why on earth are we digging this up again? This was reported quite a while ago when the year numbers came out. This seems more like a v
72 Post contains links KingCavalier : I am looking at the Frontier of today, not yesterday. It's pre-Sean Menke and post-Sean Menke. I cannot excuse the previous leadership's decisions, b
73 HNL-Jack : WN is an aggressive competitor. One that sees market opportunity and goes for it in a strong purposeful way. And, while I agree that WN is not out to
74 Post contains links KingCavalier : I'm sure Mariner has read this thread, but what could he possible contribute at this point? What is the point? The conventional wisdom is Frontier's p
75 LAXintl : Ah because Frontier Yesterday (June 30) filed its May earning and cash statements with the court, and are totally separate from previously reported o
76 Enilria : First, let me say, the docket today specified that F9 will get a much needed $7.5 million almost immediately from Airbus as a result of the PDP refund
77 LASOctoberB6 : The same guy has been making these kinds of comments before. It really gets old reading rubbish and immature comments.
78 Ualcsr : Thank you for an extremely well-reasoned and well-explained post; you are on my RU list. It's a little tiring to read some posters' comments on how W
79 F9Animal : Alright, let me get his out in the defense of WN getting the bad rap as being the carrier that "is out to kill" other airlines. WN started DEN way bef
80 Silentbob : And F9 is still going to be put out of business despite not being the target. It's a reasonable observation given the data. "The power of accurate ob
81 FreequentFlier : I still don't understand the notion of some poster's insistence that it is fuel, not WN that is the culprit of F9's current woes. Does it make a diffe
82 FlyPNS1 : This is what I don't understand. While Menke has done a decent job in a tough situation, I haven't seen him do anything that revolutionary. So far, t
83 Hiflyer : Aiming F9 problems ust at Southwest is missing a slew of issues. As some have pointed out the cost of fuel, in my opinion, is the biggest driver right
84 KingCavalier : You can discuss F9 all you want. You've made it clear you don't like F9. However, you CANNOT ignore the fact that Frontier's fuel bill has gone up $3
85 Sxf24 : You say this like it is a good thing, or is a legitimate excuse for their insolvency.
86 TylerDurden : Fanboys don't want to hear that. It's just easier to deny any correlation whatsoever..... I think the battle and the posturing is fairly interesting
87 KingCavalier : I'm not sure how this makes it sound like a good thing. The fact IS Frontier's fuel bill increased $325 million YOY. That IS Frontier's problem. WN,
88 LambertMan : The fuel costs are outrageous. Nobody can deny that. Smaller carriers that were teetering between the black and the red are nearly out of business, h
89 FlyPNS1 : But if WN wasn't present and F9 could raise fares more substantially, then they might not be in such dire straits. Obviously, fuel is a big problem f
90 KingCavalier : I totally agree with you. I mentioned earlier in this thread that I can make no excuses for the previous management's decisions. That was pre-Sean Me
91 KingCavalier : I doubt Frontier could raise fares that much even if WN didn't serve DEN. Look at all of the other failed attempts to raise fares by other carriers.
92 KingCavalier : You raise a good point. What if WN wasn't present at DIA? What would Frontier look like today? I doubt things would be much different. WN caused F9 t
93 Enilria : First, the news of the day...Southwest announced June results: The load factor for the month was 78.2 percent, compared to 82.1 percent for the same p
94 LambertMan : I'm not sure that it would've made that much of a difference either. My point is the lack of a secondary option to Denver, after all these years, doe
95 Rampart : This is why I think we need the competition, and that "industry consolidation" is not necessarily a good thing. It's worked 2 ways. WN realized their
96 Enilria : Of course it is a bad thing, but oil makes it necessary. The only difference this time is that Ch11 doesn't help with the fuel bill. Here is the ulti
97 ADent : What am I missing? United's product is improving? Doesn't seem like that here - except the Ted planes will get 1st class, but the death of Ted doesn'
98 Rdwelch : Enilria, I'll try not to take the quote out of context, so humor me. For the sake of simplicity let's say your costs on an operating day are $100. So
99 Enilria : That was a quote from Rampart, not me. I'm not saying that cutting costs is bad, far from it as there is no other option. Here is an example. Let's s
100 Rdwelch : I understand where you're coming from, but my math was based on the quote regarding ratios of cost allotments. Anyhow, I agree that yield is and alwa
101 TxAgKuwait : I'm not sure how much time you have spent around the airline industry, but under no circumstances should a 78% load factor be described as miserable.
102 ADent : Sorry - never can tell whether the right quote button is above or below the post when not quoting the last post.
103 Rampart : You did qoute me, actually. I didn't say if UA were actually improving, or whether Ted's demise was a direct consequence. But UA are trying, obviousl
104 NwaLAS : You really hate to see any airline go down but things are in a desperate situation right now not only for F9 but for NWA and all the others with the e
105 Post contains links Caribbean484 : Hey guys I just read a report on F9, it says that the airline maybe forced to close down operations with monting looses. http://www.krdo.com/Global/st
106 Post contains links LoneStarMike : I don't think WN needs to "kill" US. They (US) are one of a few airlines now charging $15 for the first checked bag and took it a step further and wi
107 TxAgKuwait : Mike, unfortunately...timing is everything. It makes sense and might have worked. The problem, I'm afraid....is that Frontier is too far gone. I'm not
108 Post contains links Mariner : (i) If it isn't true, why should it not be challenged, whatever the outcome? I'm an historian and a fairly iconoclastic one. I have spent my life and
109 Lambert747 : Dont find it offensive, you are the one with the Respect Rating of 73.. We know who to believe ..
110 Cubsrule : If you accept that high fuel prices were not foreseeable (and I tend to agree with you, though I think the point is debatable), then the expansion to
111 Post contains links Mariner : Debatable? I don't know anyone - not even the most avowed Peak Oil Theorist - who genuinely believed that the oil price would double in a year. This
112 Cubsrule : Agreed. But the demand-driven portion of the price increase should have been foreseen. How much is that? That's a hard question. I doubt it. There's
113 Mariner : Why? The Saudis don't believe it. The Kuwaitis don't believe it. The Libyans don't believe it. What may happen is different from what has happened. m
114 United1 : They have a good reason to not believe it, as far as I know there was no switch thrown that magical doubled the amount of oil used in the past 6 mont
115 Cubsrule : What makes you say that? Are you arguing that increased demand has no impact on oil prices?
116 Mariner : No impact? I would never argue that. But similarly, the provable fall in demand, in the west at least, has had no downward effect on the price of oil
117 Cubsrule : It's unquestionably a bubble. The more relevant question is what's left once you strip the bubble (and the weak dollar, which is also in play now) aw
118 Mariner : Can't help you. I am not an economist. I am fully aware of that. But however much it has been "decoupled" the west is still a most significant consum
119 Jacobin777 : All bubbles eventually come to an end...some quicker than others, but when they end, its usually rather "violent". Probably the number one reason as
120 Enilria : Probably much longer than you, but regardless it's not the 78 that is terrible, it is the fact it is down 3 points YOY. A 3 point LF decline is about
121 Cubsrule : True. Being a significant customer does not make a region the price setter, though, which seems to be your thesis. I'm not arguing that if nothing el
122 Mariner : The israeli military exercises that were seen as a precursor to an attack on Iran were worth a solid $10 on the oil price in a matter of days. The un
123 Cubsrule : Mr. Menke apparently feels that Mexico flying is not sustainable with oil at $130/barrel (IIRC, it was more like $105-$110 when the mass Mexico cuts
124 AirFrnt : I am thinking of the year end numbers, which allowed us to see this impact. I don't believe that assertion will be backed up once the full numbers ar
125 Caribbean484 : Well the key adverb used was the word Maybe, possibly. And its F9 that said it in their SEC filling that they face a very serious liquidity problem.
126 Enilria : I know this is not where you were going, but you are basically saying that F9 cut Mexico capacity for a reason other than weak demand. What would tha
127 Isitsafenow : Everything I have read both in A-Net posts and in financials, have reached this conclusion... Midwest and Frontier aren't going to last six months. My
128 Enilria : While I believe most of that article is junk...as I posted on another thread, they could have been a bit more optimistic by saying something like "wh
129 Mariner : The "mass Mexico" (?) cuts began because a number of those routes were only barely profitable with oil at $70 and were not profitable with oil at $10
130 KingCavalier : SLC-CUN and the return CUN-SLC are both 100% booked today. MCI-CUN is 90% and the return CUN-MCI is 100%. Demand is still good to Mexico.
131 Mariner : No, sir, not confusing anything. Yes, there is always a basic demand, it fuels industry and manufacture. But as we have seen in the US, Europe and Au
132 Cubsrule : Let's put it this way: if in the next two years, a subsidy change causes 300 million people in China to use 25% less oil but at the same time 100 mil
133 Mariner : "If"? Sure - "if". I'm not good with "if's". It is surprising given that you said, without equivocation, that there was "decreased demand for leisure
134 LAXintl : Indeed, total US outbound travel to Mexico was up 8.2% for the first 3 months of 2008 over same period 2007. And a matter of fact total US outbound t
135 Cubsrule : You're reading something that I didn't say and that is patently false (that what has happened to oil prices was foreseeable) into what I did say-- or
136 Mariner : And some was. When Mr. Menke took over as CEO, oil was at $70. His initial round of cuts were predicated on oil at $100. As a matter of historical in
137 Cubsrule : That, of course, leads to the question of whether it's necessarily bad to fly routes that make money now but you know or suspect will not in the futu
138 Enilria : OK, then we agree they have dropped successful routes for BS reasons like "they are not core flying". As you often say, in "my world" a core route is
139 Cubsrule : You've actually answered your own question... That makes Mexico more attractive than, say, Europe. People are substituting away from Europe and other
140 Mariner : Those are my words, not Frontier's. If you consider my my words are BS, I shrug. Again. But I don't know what "successful" routes they have dropped -
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
22/02/2003 A.net Meeting In FRA posted Sun Feb 16 2003 13:01:54 by F.pier
Sun Country Posts Loss In Q1, Faces Headwinds posted Tue Jun 17 2008 07:04:28 by WA707atMSP
Martinair Retro Jet And € 69 Mi Loss In 2007 posted Thu May 15 2008 09:20:49 by KL5147
AZ Announces 250 M$ Loss In First Quarter posted Wed May 14 2008 01:36:12 by Beaucaire
Allegiant Reports $9.7 Million Net Income In Q1 posted Mon Apr 28 2008 18:47:37 by FATFlyer
Jetblue Posts $8m Net Loss posted Tue Apr 22 2008 04:59:06 by B6FA4ever
Reuters Says $4-9 Billion Loss In '08 For US Lines posted Wed Mar 12 2008 08:52:59 by MasseyBrown
Expressjet Post Q4 And 2007 Loss posted Mon Mar 10 2008 09:30:07 by LAXintl
Possible Complete Power Loss In FBW A/c posted Wed Feb 13 2008 08:47:44 by Dubliftment
Row 22 Vs. Row 23 In Air France 777 posted Fri Jan 11 2008 05:00:47 by Ogre727
22/02/2003 A.net Meeting In FRA posted Sun Feb 16 2003 13:01:54 by F.pier
Sun Country Posts Loss In Q1, Faces Headwinds posted Tue Jun 17 2008 07:04:28 by WA707atMSP
Martinair Retro Jet And € 69 Mi Loss In 2007 posted Thu May 15 2008 09:20:49 by KL5147
AZ Announces 250 M$ Loss In First Quarter posted Wed May 14 2008 01:36:12 by Beaucaire
Allegiant Reports $9.7 Million Net Income In Q1 posted Mon Apr 28 2008 18:47:37 by FATFlyer
Jetblue Posts $8m Net Loss posted Tue Apr 22 2008 04:59:06 by B6FA4ever
Reuters Says $4-9 Billion Loss In '08 For US Lines posted Wed Mar 12 2008 08:52:59 by MasseyBrown
Expressjet Post Q4 And 2007 Loss posted Mon Mar 10 2008 09:30:07 by LAXintl
Possible Complete Power Loss In FBW A/c posted Wed Feb 13 2008 08:47:44 by Dubliftment