GatorAvionics From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 21 posts, RR: 0 Posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4608 times:
Hello A.netters!
I was just wondering if anyone had any idea or heard any rumors regarding the timeframe as to when CO is going to join * Alliance?
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4455 times:
Quoting GatorAvionics (Thread starter): I was just wondering if anyone had any idea or heard any rumors regarding the timeframe as to when CO is going to join * Alliance?
There's no credible information about precisely when CO will join, from any source, because of numerous preconditions that must occur before even the mere certainty of Continental leaving SkyTeam can be assured.
Ota1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4366 times:
Quoting Avek00 (Reply 2): There's no credible information about precisely when CO will join, from any source, because of numerous preconditions that must occur before even the mere certainty of Continental leaving SkyTeam can be assured.
I think the question is not IF it's WHEN... Do you really think they'd still be welcome in ST after being left out (voluntarily or not) all antitrust immunity deals, and announcing they'd defect to ST's major competitor? I don't think so. I'm also pretty sure they would not have announced their plans the way they did if they didn't really want to leave ST.
Bobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5974 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4344 times:
Quoting Ota1 (Reply 3): Do you really think they'd still be welcome in ST after being left out (voluntarily or not) all antitrust immunity deals,
CO was not left out, they choose not to be included in the application for ATI.
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4335 times:
Quoting Ota1 (Reply 3): I think the question is not IF it's WHEN... Do you really think they'd still be welcome in ST after being left out (voluntarily or not) all antitrust immunity deals, and announcing they'd defect to ST's major competitor? I don't think so. I'm also pretty sure they would not have announced their plans the way they did if they didn't really want to leave ST.
CO is ready to leave Sky. The problem is why should Sky let CO leave? This is why they have to wait. Get out of contracts/codeshares etc.
Ota1 From Germany, joined Apr 2008, 394 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4307 times:
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 4): CO was not left out, they choose not to be included in the application for ATI.
that's pretty much what I meant... chose wrong words though...
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5): CO is ready to leave Sky. The problem is why should Sky let CO leave? This is why they have to wait. Get out of contracts/codeshares etc.
That's actually the cheap way getting out. I think they could pay a fine to DL/NW, AF/KL, ST or who ever and be out of it more or less any time. Just a
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6129 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4291 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5): CO is ready to leave Sky. The problem is why should Sky let CO leave? This is why they have to wait. Get out of contracts/codeshares etc.
My understanding is that the merger of Delta/NW gives them a legal right to leave per the terms of their contract.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4251 times:
Don't forget that CO themselves said that there is no guarantee that they will be successful in their desire to quit Skyteam - there will be a number of different contractual arrangements most of which are probably confidential to the parties concerned - I think it all depends on who is willing to do what behind the scenes - I am sure that if someone was prepared to pay enough money CO could leave sooner rather than later - but in todays environment who in the industry has that sort of money floating around ( If LH hadn't already bought their stake in B9 then maybe they would have been willing to invest in CO and stump up some penalty fees for departure from Skyteam ....then again conspiracy theorists might say that LH bought their stake in B9 so that they would have a bargaining chip at JFK to use with DL 'look what we can offer you at JFK to help you beat up AA , but you can't have it if you dont play nice and let CO make their move' )
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 4115 times:
Quoting Ota1 (Reply 3): I'm also pretty sure they would not have announced their plans the way they did if they didn't really want to leave ST.
I'm sure CO really wants to leave, but its departure from SkyTeam is, as per its own words, subject to various factors which Continental is unable to control.
CAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3942 times:
Simply put, there are a lot of pieces that have to fall into place that, in and ammongnst themselves, don't have a timeline. It will take a while, as for any other major change in situation, ext.
1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3934 times:
Quoting Enilria (Reply 7): My understanding is that the merger of Delta/NW gives them a legal right to leave per the terms of their contract.
There contract to DL/NW yes (after 9 months). But AF/KL is a different story.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6129 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3870 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 11): There contract to DL/NW yes (after 9 months). But AF/KL is a different story.
I know for a fact there is not a separate alliance agreement among every group of partners in SkyTeam. There are code share agreements with AF/KL, but that is separate from their SkyTeam agreement. The Star, OneWorld, and SkyTeam master agreement terms are all pretty much the same. If CO argued the merged airline is deemed a "new carrier" by the master agreement then CO would also have the right to block their inclusion in SkyTeam, so I think CO has enough power in this situation to extricate itself.
JoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3834 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 8): Don't forget that CO themselves said that there is no guarantee that they will be successful in their desire to quit Skyteam
I thought their remark was more in regards to Star. There still is an anonymous vote required to accept them. I hope CO made sure that this will go through but it is not a certain.
I don't think sky can block them leaving, but they might be able to make a lengthy process...
Aisak From Spain, joined Aug 2005, 757 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3795 times:
Even if CO doesn't leave Skyteam, there's nothing preventing CO to set codeshare, lounge and FF agreements with every single Star carrier on a 1:1 basis.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3512 posts, RR: 21 Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3784 times:
I really think that the anti-trust immunity is the only thing holding CO back. There is no reason to make the exit strategy public while the OK from the government hasn't come.
Ludavid777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 205 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3764 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 8): If LH hadn't already bought their stake in B9
CAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3663 times:
Quoting Aisak (Reply 14): Even if CO doesn't leave Skyteam, there's nothing preventing CO to set codeshare, lounge and FF agreements with every single Star carrier on a 1:1 basis
True, but would this be an attractive option if CO indeed stays in Skyteam? CO: Bridging the gap...?
1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
DeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8576 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3627 times:
Quoting Enilria (Reply 12): If CO argued the merged airline is deemed a "new carrier" by the master agreement then CO would also have the right to block their inclusion in SkyTeam, so I think CO has enough power in this situation to extricate itself.
Which couldn't happen as they are taking the Delta Air Lines name. If the changed the name then it could happen but they keep the DL name then they can't block or kick them out. Plus DL is a founder which I'm sure has more pull than CO.
Quoting Enilria (Reply 12): I know for a fact there is not a separate alliance agreement among every group of partners in SkyTeam. There are code share agreements with AF/KL, but that is separate from their SkyTeam agreement. The Star, OneWorld, and SkyTeam master agreement terms are all pretty much the same
I was talking about the codeshares which are in a contract.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
Kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 15 Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3606 times:
Quoting JoFMO (Reply 13): I thought their remark was more in regards to Star. There still is an anonymous vote required to accept them. I hope CO made sure that this will go through but it is not a certain.
check the Star Alliance website - they have already been accepted if they can escape Skyteam
Press Releases 2008FRANKFURT, June 19, 2008 STAR ALLIANCE FORMALLY INVITES CONTINENTAL AIRLINES
Alliance membership offer comes in line with Continental / United cooperation
The Chief Executive Board of Star Alliance has unanimously agreed to extend an official invitation to Continental Airlines to join the most experienced global airline alliance........
Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
NYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 653 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2930 times:
Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 19): check the Star Alliance website - they have already been accepted if they can escape Skyteam
Press Releases 2008FRANKFURT, June 19, 2008 STAR ALLIANCE FORMALLY INVITES CONTINENTAL AIRLINES
Alliance membership offer comes in line with Continental / United cooperation
The Chief Executive Board of Star Alliance has unanimously agreed to extend an official invitation to Continental Airlines to join the most experienced global airline alliance........
While an invitation to join has been extended, thy still have to meet *A requirements to be a member. That has NOT been accomplished yet, however, if/when they get out of skyteam, I don't think meeting *A requirements will be difficult for CO sans getting out of skyteam.
Quoting CAL764 (Reply 17): True, but would this be an attractive option if CO indeed stays in Skyteam? CO: Bridging the gap...?
I would think that alliance agreements would require you to have some sort of limiting factor regarding codsharing with non alliance partners. I really wish I was a lawyer in this field, the term and conditions of an airline joining an alliance has always intrigued me.
Now he's a question. What happens IF CO leaves SkyTeam, but doesn't make in into Star Alliance?
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4090 posts, RR: 18 Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2674 times:
Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 21): I would think that alliance agreements would require you to have some sort of limiting factor regarding codsharing with non alliance partners.
Such a provision would likely violate the antitrust laws.
Enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6129 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2658 times:
Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 18): Which couldn't happen as they are taking the Delta Air Lines name. If the changed the name then it could happen but they keep the DL name then they can't block or kick them out. Plus DL is a founder which I'm sure has more pull than CO.
The carrier is a defined entity in these contracts and name is not the only component in the definition. All the full members have an equal vote under the SkyTeam agreement, but typically within your region each carrier has a veto right.
Anyway, the point is that CO has a vote or a veto vote on all SkyTeam business. Don't you think they can make themselves enough of a nuissance to get escorted to the door if they really want to? There are so many ways they could make themselves unwanted. They could close all the code share inventory or just make it price uncompetitive, for example. They could make it difficult to redeem SkyTeam miles. They will get out.
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conspiracy theorists might say that LH bought their stake in B9 so that they would have a bargaining chip at JFK to use with DL 'look what we can offer you at JFK to help you beat up AA , but you can't have it if you dont play nice and let CO make their move' )
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