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Bombardier CSeries Beefed Up  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20215 times:

A little more wing span and range.

Bombardier Inc. said yesterday it has revised the designs of its CSeries commercial jet family, increasing wingspan, reducing length, improving range and adding the "hot and high" 130XT for shorter and high-altitude runways.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...b2fbef-eee8-46a2-bec7-6a3e9525af33



IMO at some point when the program is established (financing, subcontractors, backlog) Bombardier will pull a C150 out of the drawer.. making the 737 & A320 look like SUV's and having Airbus and Boeing rethink "2020" for a new NB.

[Edited 2008-07-03 02:10:03]

96 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 20176 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
reducing length,

Won't this also reduce seating capacity?

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
increasing wingspan, improving range

I guess they are going after more than just the "regional" market with these changes.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Bombardier will pull a C150 out of the drawer

These changes seem to make it more likely indeed.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20064 times:

Especially with the XT version, it looks increasingly like the Chinese will launch CSeries (and soon). Would be a good performer in many regions of that country, esp. Tibet and Xinjiang. I wonder what this says about their confidence in AVIC I ?

I agree that with the bigger wing, a C150 looks almost certain. I believe this meets the definition of an aircraft 'family'.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19812 times:

Already 2 subtypes of the C110 and 3 subtypes of the C130.

Likely the C130 portfolio will be rationalized to two subtypes too (with & without that extra fuel tank?)

I did a quick & dirty powerpoint stretch of the C130 with 150 inch (5rows / 25 seats). IMO the wings are dimensioned for it.



User currently offlineKennyK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 482 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19694 times:

It's getting to sound better by the day, just get some orders in and launch this baby  bigthumbsup 

User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 19654 times:

They should have announced today in honor of the 400th anniversary celebrations in Quebec. Although Farnborough would be a good second choice :P.

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4760 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 19522 times:

I am sure it is an optical illusion ... but it looks like all the the seats are facing the tail! Just like another Bombardier/Canadair creation ... the CC106.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineR2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19345 times:

If Bombardier is smart, they will design this a/c to be easily stretchable beyond the 130 in the future. A 5-abreast cross-section allows for lots of possibilities. A stretched CSeries would be a low cost, low risk way for Bombardier to sneak into A&B's turf without having to bet the company on a new design. This announced design change is certainly a step in the right direction.

User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 19327 times:

Will it have the P&W gtf engine?

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8205 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 19296 times:

Boom. This will be the most fuel efficient 120-150 pax jet in the sky. There is always a market for that.  dollarsign   dollarsign   dollarsign   thumbsup   thumbsup   thumbsup 

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19149 times:

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 2):
I wonder what this says about their confidence in AVIC I ?

I think AVIC will offer affordable capasity to build the relatively conventional fuselage structure, a labor intensive part. AVIC can keep down production costs.. Then the Chineese have the money to be risk sharing partners & sit on a huge growth market. Only consideration is AVIC is also developing / building the similar seized ARJ...

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 8):
Will it have the P&W gtf engine?

Yes, the promise of this new commercial aircraft, also the biggest risk. Soon prototypes of the engines will take to the air. Hopefull the bunch of hot rotating gears and bearings in front of the engine will prove realiable..



Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
Boom. This will be the most fuel efficient 120-150 pax jet in the sky.

If the GTF delivers, and Bombardier succeeds in keeping the weight significantly under the NB's is should be possible to go at least 15% down in fuel consumption compared to the CFM56 /V2500 powered 737 and A320.

[Edited 2008-07-03 14:34:12]

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 19110 times:

all Bombardier has to do to make this airplane a hit right out of the box is to agree to take back 1 CRJ for every C series acquired. DL/NW and many other carriers will buy it in a heartbeat.

User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18904 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 6):
I am sure it is an optical illusion ... but it looks like all the the seats are facing the tail! Just like another Bombardier/Canadair creation ... the CC106.

You're dating yourself.

How many CC106/Canadair 540s did they build ? Maybe 15 or so ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineMSP718 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18874 times:

Cant wait to see these in the air!

User currently offlineOsiris30 From Barbados, joined Sep 2006, 3186 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18740 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
IMO at some point when the program is established (financing, subcontractors, backlog) Bombardier will pull a C150 out of the drawer.. making the 737 & A320 look like SUV's and having Airbus and Boeing rethink "2020" for a new NB.

I've only been calling for that/cautioning that A&B need to mind BBD and EMB since I joined the site  Wink Many are quick to dismiss BBD and EMB as unable to get into the A&B space, but it wasn't long ago that Airbus wasn't much more than BBD... look what happened.

As a Canadian, (yes I carry two passports by birth) I hope BBD pulls it off.. not many people understand how far advanced Canada was at one time in the aerospace sector (hints: Avro Jetliner, Avro Arrow).

*If* BBD can establish in the 150 seat market, it could spell long-term trouble for A&B.



I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8494 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18711 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 6):
I am sure it is an optical illusion ... but it looks like all the the seats are facing the tail! Just like another Bombardier/Canadair creation ... the CC106.

Looks backward to me too.


User currently onlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3049 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18701 times:



Quoting KennyK (Reply 4):
It's getting to sound better by the day, just get some orders in and launch this baby  bigthumbsup  

Amen, brother!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
all Bombardier has to do to make this airplane a hit right out of the box is to agree to take back 1 CRJ for every C series acquired.

Or offer a reasonable trade-in allowance on used MD-80s! Big grin

Bombardier, get serious, get busy, get orders, and get these birds in production!
Farnborough! Farnborough! Farnborough!



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineAlessandro From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 18689 times:

It´ll run +250hrs as far as I know, in test benches.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 18450 times:

I think what Bombardier needs is a strong western ally that puts critical weight behind the project and can really take care of share of the development.

Dassault, BAE, Northrop Grumann, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Kawasaki..

Upto 150 seats maybe 5 abreast is struturally more efficient. Upfront it is if a middle seat in First is hard to sell. AVIC, Bombardier, Sukhoi, Mc Donalds, Fokker, Dornier etc thought so. Half are gone however..



User currently offlineLawnDart From United States of America, joined May 2005, 968 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 18372 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
all Bombardier has to do to make this airplane a hit right out of the box is to agree to take back 1 CRJ for every C series acquired. DL/NW and many other carriers will buy it in a heartbeat.

I've made that point in the past (2 CRJs for 1 C Series)...while that would be a heck of an inducement for airlines like AA / DL / UA, it would probably be an insurmountable cost for Bombardier.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 18):
Upto 150 seats maybe 5 abreast is struturally more efficient.

One of the great ideas that Bombardier has come up with in the 5-abreast cross section is that the middle seat on the three-seat side is about one inch wider than the other 2 seats.

If you've got to sit in the penalty box, here's a consolation prize...


User currently offlineDrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 18233 times:

Upto 150 seats maybe 5 abreast is struturally more efficient. Upfront it is if a middle seat in First is hard to sell. AVIC, Bombardier, Sukhoi, Mc Donalds , Fokker, Dornier etc thought so. Half are gone however..

I miss the days when McDonald's was building airplanes. Anybody remember the Mc DC-3? What a classic!

Certainly I would think that passengers would prefer five abreast to six abreast. The DC-9 series (and MD-80 series) wouldn't be categorized as commercial failures. McDonnell Douglas' problems were more MD-11 related.


User currently offlineCptRegionalJet From Germany, joined Oct 2007, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18166 times:



Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 20):
I miss the days when McDonald's was building airplanes. Anybody remember the Mc DC-3? What a classic!

 Big grin  Big grin  Big grin Best comment I have read here in a long time!!!


User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 3 weeks ago) and read 18051 times:



Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 20):
Certainly I would think that passengers would prefer five abreast to six abreast.

Exactly....if given the choice I'd take an MD-80/717 over a 737/A320 anyday. For my trip to Florida next month on DL, out of of 4 planes, only 1 requires me to sit in a 3 across row. (MD88, 763, 738, CR9)

I have high hopes for BBD on this one.


User currently offlineBoeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18003 times:



Quoting Drgmobile (Reply 20):
I miss the days when McDonald's was building airplanes. Anybody remember the Mc DC-3? What a classic!

Don't forget the Big Mac!



"Two full length decks,
special wings,
engines, gear,
pickles, onions,
on a sesame seed fuse!"

 Wink

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 


User currently offlineRainmaker From Brazil, joined Jan 2006, 114 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 17720 times:



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
increasing wingspan, reducing length, improving range

Maybe it´s just me but wouldn´t that increase weight/reduce capacity? This doesn´t bode well for fuel efficiency I suppose.

Also BBD takes 2 steps back and the C-Series can again be called transcontinental. As far as I remember, airlines weren´t interested in a 110/130 seat transcon a/c. What has changed beside the price of oil?


25 Andhen : Well said.. As always, a good post Keesje. I really like your photos, they make your posts very interesting. Could you propose a range for the C-150,
26 777ER : NZ is announcing an order for 12-17 aircraft in the next few weeks for its NZ Link operation. Maybe the C Series is being offered by Bombardier along
27 CRJ900 : Is BBD aiming for the CSeries to have a mostly-composite fuselage like the B787 or will there be more aluminium-lithium than composites? I wonder if t
28 DavidByrne : The C-Series has never been mentioned by NZ - they say their choice is between the E190, AT7 and DH4. But NZ surely has to be a prime target for Bomb
29 R2rho : I really hope this works and BBD starts putting some pressure on A&B who are comfortably sitting back in their perfect duopoly and intend to milk thei
30 Osiris30 : Larger wing (with-in reason) vs. fuse lower weight = less drag = *better* fuel efficiency.
31 Post contains links and images Keesje : Bombardier specifies the biggest version with a 2900nm range. I think a stretched C150 wouldn't be allowed to increase too much on MTOW. So I guess a
32 Connies4ever : Regarding the upper limits on seating capacity, wouldn't that be controlled by the number of emergency exits ? Seem to recall EasyJet had to have 2 ex
33 Post contains links and images Keesje : Two overwing escape exits like bigger 737 an a320 versions doesn't seem a showstopper. Pratt has been very upbeat over the geared turbo fan over the
34 Post contains images Mastermis : " target=_blank>http://www.thompsonsolutions.co.uk/t....html I like it, just like Qantas' new A380 interior!
35 A388 : LOL good one! A388
36 Bkircher : Everyone here keeps talking about BBD stretching this to compete with Boeing and Airbus, lets not forget what it was originally designed to compete wi
37 Lightsaber : Hey, I've always been upbeat on the GTF! But a 17% over the V2500 should be achievable. Yea... they're saying 12% to 15%... But my sources are saying
38 Tangowhisky : Hopefully they are thinking seriously about a 150 seat plane as this is what the market needs the most. The larger wing is really for increased fuel c
39 Post contains links and images JBo : Please tell me I'm not the only one thinking of this everytime someone mentions a "C130": View Large View MediumPhoto © Malcolm J.Bezzina :D
40 777ER : I know its never been talked about, but whats stopping Bombardier from offering Cseries aircraft with some Q400s as part of a package? This way it st
41 Bkircher : I do not see the MRJ, becoming Embraers main compeitor with their new product. It has a few orders, which were placed mainly by Chinese and Japanese a
42 Sirtoby : [ Chinese? If that would be true, you would be the man first to know...
43 DavidByrne : No reason at all why they shouldn't/wouldn't/couldn't. I was just rather surprised that NZ was publicly very specific about the options they were con
44 Post contains links Mastermis : News in a Montreal paper is that Bombardier has 5 buyers. Looking good for a launch next week. (article is short, but all in french. sorry) http://lap
45 Caribb : It says 5 potential buyers. The focus is on China but Lufthansa & Qatar Airways are also on the target list. Looks interesting.[Edited 2008-07-07 09:2
46 9252fly : Would it be technically possible to also build the C-110 as a high-speed turbo-prop? I'm trying to imagine what it would look like,would the engines b
47 Drgmobile : Would it be technically possible to also build the C-110 as a high-speed turbo-prop? I'm trying to imagine what it would look like,would the engines b
48 Post contains links Keesje : - Shanghai Airlines - China Southern, - Lufthansa, - International Lease Finance Corp. - Qatar Airways for a total of more than 200 aircraft. Other p
49 Post contains links Sebring : http://money.canoe.ca/News/Other/2008/07/07/6088811-cp.html Five likely buyers to start for 200 units.
50 Rheinbote : Wouldn't that depend on what in-service date NZ is targeting for the aircraft?
51 Srbmod : In some ways, DL/NW ordering them would seem a bit odd at first glance. You would think that they would just order additional 73Gs to replace the NW
52 Bkircher : Seeing as how this is BBDs first plane of this type, and looking at the 787 with its delays with Boeing having issues with it, I feel that this same s
53 Tangowhisky : If BBD does launch the Cseries next week at Franborough, you can be sure that Southwest and a alike will further turn the screws on Boeing to get on w
54 LifelinerOne : They probably won't. ILFC just said that they were about to order 100 narrow bodies from both manufacturers. As long as these orders are coming in, t
55 Keesje : Steven own fleets of newish 737s and A320s. It is not in his interest to say they they reached the end of their life cycle or something of that tone.
56 Bravo1Six : Not unless (a) BBD divests itself of the transportation division and (b) the Bombardier family decides they no longer want to be a prt of the busines
57 Drgmobile : Not unless (a) BBD divests itself of the transportation division and (b) the Bombardier family decides they no longer want to be a prt of the business
58 Tangowhisky : This is a possibility, but when you look at reality this will not happen. First of all the two top dogs, James at Boeing and Pierre at Bombardier hav
59 Aircellist : I felt there was smoething in the denomination, too... How many negations can one put in a single proposition? Tangowhisky: interesting analysis...
60 TylerDurden : Extremely doubtful...even for Bombardier. At any rate, they will have their hands full with the 110 and 130 versions for the next ten years...
61 Tangowhisky : Absolutely, I meant medium to longer term, not the short term. Take a look at how the DC-9 fuselage was reused and reused over the decades in to the
62 Flighty : A key issue there is range and performance. Can a new-tech 5 abreast C150 hit the 3000nm range? Right now they claim 2700nm range for a C110ER. This
63 TylerDurden : At some point that 5-abreast design becomes inneficient from a design and operations standpont. I imagine the MD series was approaching that. If not
64 Propjett : I think you are mistaken on a V2500 powered 737.....never built..never modified....(that I can find anywhere anyway) someone correct me if I am wrong
65 Propjett : You can only imagine what I thought when I first read "pulling the plans for the C150 off of the shelf".......
66 Tangowhisky : Most certainly this will require a larger wing for the additional fuel, increased MTOW, beefed up gear, wheels and brakes, and possibly larger subsys
67 TylerDurden : First you say it's OK to jump to 180 seats at 5-abreast....then you say that beyond 150 requires 6-abreast. Your contradicting yourself..... I don't
68 Keesje : I think you gave the answer yourself. For longer range >3/4 hours flights the A320/737 kind of aircraft are better optimized. Offering more comfort,
69 Post contains links Drgmobile : I note with interest that Boeing's Current Market Outlook, released today, has no mention of a 737 replacement. It still refers to the Boeing 737 NG a
70 Columba : I can not wait till Farnborough and see the first pictures in real airline livery especially LH and Qatar.
71 Tangowhisky : My point on Airbus was that they also needed to match the cabin comfort to the B727 which is not 5 across, but 6 across. I think that there is a cros
72 Drgmobile : My point on Airbus was that they also needed to match the cabin comfort to the B727 which is not 5 across, but 6 across. I think that there is a cross
73 Tangowhisky : I was referring to the 130-240 seat segment
74 Drgmobile : I was referring to the 130-240 seat segment I realize that.
75 Post contains links Drgmobile : There's an article from Reuters today that looks at this issue in an interesting way. I've been thinking that the timing for a new aircraft isn't all
76 TylerDurden : After reading the Reuters piece---giving the launch about a 50/50 chance---I'm not so sure we're going to see it next week.... I saw the press confer
77 SNCntry32 : I think we could very well see NW/DL being the launch customer for this. Even as a standalone carrier, I always thought NW would order the C series fr
78 NicoEDDF : True, V25 only for the A320 and MD90 and CFM56-3 for the 737 classics, -7 for the 737NG exclusively and -5 for A320 (and A340). Let alone the ground
79 Drgmobile : I think we could very well see NW/DL being the launch customer for this. Even as a standalone carrier, I always thought NW would order the C series fr
80 SNCntry32 : However, at the mainline level, with mainline crews, and a mainline pay scale.
81 TylerDurden : They originally only scheuduled for two days....so I guess we'll have to wait. BTW you have your time zones reversed. If not...then its 6:00am EDT
82 Drgmobile : They originally only scheuduled for two days....so I guess we'll have to wait. BTW you have your time zones reversed. If not...then its 6:00am EDT You
83 Bmacleod : Will Bombardier use composite material similar to the 787? As small as a regional jet is the lighter it is the less fuel it burns.....
84 Drgmobile : According to the C-Series Web site: # 70% Advanced materials airframe * 46% Advanced lightweight composite * 24% Aluminium lithium # 2013 Pratt and Wh
85 Tangowhisky : If that is true, how else are they getting financing on their existing orders or deliveries? It is a challenge, but they can still be financed by com
86 TylerDurden : Huh...where did Air New Zealand come in? Just curious. I'm betting for half a billion dollars, they may go entirely Chinese to get the program launch
87 Drgmobile : If that is true, how else are they getting financing on their existing orders or deliveries? It is a challenge, but they can still be financed by comm
88 Tangowhisky : It has been mentioned in recent threads. They are disposing their 737 Classics like Lufthansa. However Air New Zealand's next board meeting is in 3rd
89 DavidByrne : Air NZ's Board meeting on 23 July will decide on the replacement of the ATR-72. In that context, the E190, Q400 and (new) AT7s have been publicly ack
90 MD-90 : I'd heavy hitters are Boeing, Airbus, and Embraer. Bombardier will join that fraternity if they're successful with the C-Series and actually develop
91 777ER : NZs B733 fleet is the newest in the world, so they will be around for a number of years still. As has already been said, the upcoming board meeting i
92 Post contains links H53Epilot : You are wrong. Both the Challenger 300 and Global Express aircraft are clean sheet designs built from the ground up. Both are top performers (and sel
93 MD-90 : I forgot about the Challenger 300, which very well might be all-new, but the Global Express still shares design elements with the Canadair 601 family
94 Post contains links Mastermis : Looks like its all systems GO! Bombardier expected to name launch customer of new C-Series LONDON — Bombardier Inc. is set to move into direct compe
95 H53Epilot : The Challenger 300 is new not "very well might be all-new. The Global Express has the same general configuration as the CRJ series, but it is a new d
96 Tangowhisky : The Global Express has an all new wing and tail. The fuselage is the same 8 feet 10 inch diameter fuse based on the original Chaellenger 600 with app
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