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DL Terminates EXJet Agreement  
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11626 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/pz/080703/145811.html

Sorry to see it go......The LAX-SFO flights were doing well, but the terms were not in favor of XJ. Would be nice to see mainline back in this market, but knowing DL, it probably will be a long time in coming, esp. with the presence of VX, WN, AA & UA.

208 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11575 times:

Not surprising anymore. Seriously. There seems to be more threads are there on A.net about terminated service than anything else.

[Edited 2008-07-03 13:14:40]

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5803 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11559 times:



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 1):
Is DL going to replace XJet flying on any of the LAX routes, such as SFO

The article says
ExpressJet currently operates 23 ERJ-145 aircraft for Delta Connection on flights that primarily operate out of Los Angeles and Salt Lake City. Delta intends to award a portion of this flying, including all routes currently operated by ExpressJet at its Salt Lake City hub, to another Delta Connection carrier.

We'll see if that means they will have someone else (probably OO) operate out of LAX or which of those routes will completely end.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2673 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11522 times:

How surprising.  sarcastic  Guess the LAX "hub" that never was is officially dead if these routes end.

User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11470 times:

Some of the routes ExpressJet operates on (especially out of SLC) also have mainline and Delta Connection service operated by SkyWest. So there is the possibility that those frequencies operated by ExpressJet could be axed completely and not replaced by a mainline or other DL Connection carrier.

I wonder if Delta will redeploy ASA to SLC and LAX? Or could they be sending Comair out west?

Delta cutting some of their smaller Delta Connection contracts is not a surprise at all. Some of this is definitely related to the current climate in the industry and some of it is probably is related to the merger, as if the merger is approved, they'll have Mesaba and Compass under their corporate umbrella as well as having Pinnacle back in the mix.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 11359 times:

DL specifically said they may redeploy other Delta Connection carriers in some of these markets. Some may end but some may be retained.

The reason this contract ended is that Exjet was losing money on the prorate flying for DL - much of which was started by DL as an effort to put gates at its terminal in LAX - and Xjet could no longer justify keeping the aircraft in its network. Because Xjet also operated contracted (ASM buy) DCI flying, DL had the leverage to get Xjet to cancel the ASM buy flying in order to let XJet out of the prorate flying.

Based on the contract CO signed with Xjet, CO has to reabsorb these 23 aircraft so DL will be removing ASM buy aircraft from its fleet, Xjet will be cutting its losses, and CO will have to figure out how to redeploy the aircraft. Wanna guess who lost in this arrangement?

This won't be the last deal for carriers to get out of RJ flying.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11186 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
This won't be the last deal for carriers to get out of RJ flying.

Agreed. I think it's going to get uglier before it gets better. The economics of RJ flying aren't there with the substantial increase in costs of operating these birds.

Some of the LAX routes, i.e. SFO, are probably best served, economically and competitively, with mainline aircraft. Even so, it's a crowded market. DL might serve themselves well to use their own metal in this corridor if it is indeed a market they want to be part of.


User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11141 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 3):
How surprising. sarcastic Guess the LAX "hub" that never was is officially dead if these routes end.

I doubt DL at LAX is going anywhere.

While it was a noble effort (with excellent service by the folks at XE), ExpressJet was likely losing money on this flying. DL wants to thin some of the RJ routes and shed DCI carriers. It looks like a win/win for the companies (though a total bummer for the great crews at XE).

OO has alot of under-utilized airplanes on the DL Connection side of the the house with no more LAX exclusivity deal with UA to keep them from picking up the LAX routes that remain.


User currently offlineSurfdog75 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10895 times:

How about replacing some of the better performing XJet routes with mainline? DL should be building LAX and SEA for the future. Why not start now with some of the mainline aircraft that would be freed up in the DL/NW deal?

User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10811 times:



Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 8):
How about replacing some of the better performing XJet routes with mainline? DL should be building LAX and SEA for the future. Why not start now with some of the mainline aircraft that would be freed up in the DL/NW deal?

Maybe a good place for the DC-9's and/or MD-88's


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10759 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
DL specifically said they may redeploy other Delta Connection carriers in some of these markets. Some may end but some may be retained.

Could Delta Air Lines use 5-6 MD-88 to operate frequencies on the West Coast such as:

LAX-PDX
LAX-PHX
LAX-LAS
LAX-SEA
LAX-SFO
LAX-SJC
LAX-SMF

Perhaps the answer is a resounding "no". What I wonder is why would Delta Air Lines/Connection have attempted to build up Los Angeles again if they were planning to end these routes. I cannot remember the thread to be exact but I remember a poster saying something to the fact that the LAX buildup was going to be part of a plan to make "Delta Air Lines the Largest International Operator" at LAX.


User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3267 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10685 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 10):
Perhaps the answer is a resounding "no". What I wonder is why would Delta Air Lines/Connection have attempted to build up Los Angeles again if they were planning to end these routes. I cannot remember the thread to be exact but I remember a poster saying something to the fact that the LAX buildup was going to be part of a plan to make "Delta Air Lines the Largest International Operator" at LAX.

For what I'm sure will NOT be the last time...

Delta was NOT planning on $140/barrel oil. The LAX plans were made far in advance of that.

I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25183 posts, RR: 48
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10681 times:



Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 3):
Guess the LAX "hub" that never was is officially dead if these routes end.

Sayonara, Delta. I dont think you will be missed by many.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
DL might serve themselves well to use their own metal in this corridor if it is indeed a market they want to be part of.



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 10):
Could Delta Air Lines use 5-6 MD-88 to operate frequencies on the West Coast such as:

LAX-PDX
LAX-PHX
LAX-LAS
LAX-SEA
LAX-SFO
LAX-SJC
LAX-SMF

Sure if they want to loose even more money and have their lunch handed to them by the likes of SWA.

Some might not remember however DL already once post the Western LAX hub tried to rebuilt a presence in the market and offered near hourly 737-200s between LAX-SFO. No surprise the effort was withdrawn after about a year.

The bottom line is that LAX is extremely well served and competitive market. There simply is not a massive amount of outstanding demand that is not being supported by the currently well entrenched players like UA, AA and SWA. In addition the Delta name, and affinity have long ago left the minds and hearts of most households whom happily view the likes of SWA, or United as the 'airline of California".



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10657 times:

Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 10):
Could Delta Air Lines use 5-6 MD-88 to operate frequencies on the West Coast such as:

LAX-PDX
LAX-PHX
LAX-LAS
LAX-SEA
LAX-SFO
LAX-SJC
LAX-SMF

Exactly what they should be doing with some mainline aircraft, if not to give some credibility to the LAX wannabe hub. Pax in the West Coast Markets have been "gun shy" on Delta since they've been pulling this on/off again routine on the West Coast for the past 30 years. Again a shame that the WA Pacific Coast routes were abandoned in the '90s. If SEA is to be a hub, the same applies.

[Edited 2008-07-03 16:22:03]

User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10581 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
The bottom line is that LAX is extremely well served and competitive market. There simply is not a massive amount of outstanding demand that is not being supported by the currently well entrenched players like UA, AA and SWA. In addition the Delta name, and affinity have long ago left the minds and hearts of most households whom happily view the likes of SWA, or United as the 'airline of California".

  
Thanks I could not have said it any better myself..

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Sayonara, Delta. I dont think you will be missed by many

  
Indeed.. These on again, off again Delta Air Lines - LAX trial periods seem to be never ending.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 13):

Exactly what they should be doing with some mainline aircraft, if not to give some credibility to the LAX wannabe hub.

  
The problem is the excuse we see time and time again is because of fuel costs. Last year Delta Air Lines, or those who chose to colour over the shoddy past of Delta Air Lines at LAX were implying that last years cuts were to better utilize equipment. This year we are hearing it is because of the cost of fuel. Frankly what Atlanta has for a hometown airline, Atlanta can have as a hometown airline. In Los Angeles we have many airlines that are at home in Los Angeles. Everyone seems to want to be in the LAX market in some form or another. Delta Air Lines gave up on LAX in the early 1990's, and again in the late 1990's/early 2000. The market has proven volatile in their direction. Perhaps it is time for Delta Air Lines to find another market that needs an airline.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 11):
Delta was NOT planning on $140/barrel oil. The LAX plans were made far in advance of that.

  

So was Southwest Airlines expansion of LAX-SFO shuttle flights, SFO expansion, DEN expansion and so forth. In order for Delta Air Lines to have been a success in the Los Angeles market that had to have at least though about how they would play against the other resources in the market. I fail to see how Delta Air Lines/Delta Connection has invested in LAX when they tear down flights nearly as soon as they start them. Nearly 30 routes and counting Delta Air Lines/Delta Connection has terminated in late 2007 into 2nd quarter 2008 alone. The year isnt even through yet.

Building a hub takes a lot of time and dedication. We that live in the Los Angeles region have seen no such dedication on behalf of Delta Air Lines to sustain their recent bump in market-share in the market. True to fact United Airlines and American Airlines have reduced flying in the LAX market. However they have maintained international long-haul service to a variety of markets for a number of years, in addition to being two of the largest domestic network operators at LAX.

[Edited 2008-07-03 17:01:16]

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10577 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 10):
Perhaps the answer is a resounding "no". What I wonder is why would Delta Air Lines/Connection have attempted to build up Los Angeles again if they were planning to end these routes.

Because Delta needed to hold onto the gate space at LAX Terminal 5, which the airport was trying for years to take away from them for under-utilization. Even with these RJs, its still not nearly as heavily utilized as some of the airport's other terminals, and once most of this RJ flying is gone, it will go right back to the way it was: way too big a terminal for the service Delta puts through it.

Delta underused the terminal for years, and after they filed bankruptcy, the airport filed to try and reclaim the gates for allocation to other airlines that really needed them and were interested in actually using them - American/Eagle, plus Alaska/Horizon, if rumors were true.

But Delta didn't want to give the gates to competitors, so they threw RJs into the place to keep the gates until all was settled with the bankruptcy proceedings and the lease was once again firmly and unquestionably theirs.

Now, if Delta has plans to consolidate the Northwest operation into Terminal 5, then that's one thing, as that would definitely then provide far more efficient use of the terminal's space. However, whether that happens is very much questionable because Northwest owns a part of Terminal 2 and the 'New Delta' may not want to give that lucrative ownership up. But, they also likely aren't too interested in splitting their operation at such a big station between T2 and T5, and the airport and T2 holding company certainly aren't going to let them keep the ownership of T2 without using the gates there. That should be interesting to see.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 13):
Exactly what they should be doing with some mainline aircraft, if not to give some credibility to the LAX wannabe hub.

But why even waste the time and money? The flights will almost certainly lose money anyway.

Delta's costs are simply too high to be a viable competitor along the West Coast, which has - generally speaking - low fares and low yields.

Southwest runs the show in those markets, with low-cost Alaska and United serving what premium and/or higher-yielding traffic there is. There is simply no room for anyone else because the market is already quite well served by Southwest, Alaska and United.

Delta would be better off focusing on the good things they have going on elsewhere and not waste their time trying to build up a hub in a market (intra-West Coast) that doesn't want or need their service.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9353 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10548 times:



Quoting Srbmod (Reply 4):
I wonder if Delta will redeploy ASA to SLC and LAX? Or could they be sending Comair out west?

Most of it will be OO.

Quoting JayDub (Reply 7):
OO has alot of under-utilized airplanes on the DL Connection side of the the house with no more LAX exclusivity deal with UA to keep them from picking up the LAX routes that remain.

 checkmark   checkmark 
This isn't that bid of a deal I believe most of the flights will be picked up by OO.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 11):
For what I'm sure will NOT be the last time...

Delta was NOT planning on $140/barrel oil. The LAX plans were made far in advance of that.

I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand.

Jeesh jet don't you know that DL can't cut routes due to fuel? I mean its just because nothing works and thats all it can't be that oil is 150$. No never.  Yeah sure
I guess with the them leaving the SLC market that means the hub there will die to.  Yeah sure

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Sayonara, Delta. I dont think you will be missed by many.

 Yeah sure

Like I said there has yet to be anyone say any of the routes will be stopped so why don't we wait to see what happens before we start saying crap like the above quote.  Wink



yep.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10498 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Delta would be better off focusing on the good things they have going on elsewhere and not waste their time trying to build up a hub in a market (intra-West Coast) that doesn't want or need their service

  

Living in Los Angeles, I cannot tell you how many people I have asked if they fly Delta Air Lines. For domestic I get 3 responses: American Airlines, United Airlines, and Southwest Airlines. For international I get 3 responses: American Airlines, United Airlines, and British Airways. It is not scientific by any means, but it gives you an idea of the market. People in Los Angeles, me being one of them, as eluded to above generally travel on one of 4 airlines for domestic: American Airlines, United Airlines, Alaska Airlines, and Southwest Airlines. Lately I have flown on Virgin America, but they have such a limited presence in the LAX market it is hardly worth mentioning.


I have never gone out of my way to fly Delta Air Lines, nor have I gone out of my way to drive down to Long Beach or to Burbank to fly on Jet Blue. Now take into consideration the lack of schedules conducive to business, Delta Air Lines rather later re-attempt at the market, and the other airlines already in play and you can see what Delta Air Lines offers is nothing unique to the Los Angeles market. Delta Air Lines is just another name in the crowd. This isnt Western Airlines in 1987, this is a while different time, and Delta is not the only game in this town..

[Edited 2008-07-03 16:58:36]

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25183 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10471 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
Like I said there has yet to be anyone say any of the routes will be stopped so why don't we wait to see

Help yourself and look online, or if you have access to a CRS system. Looks like many flights have been zero'd out in availabilty.

Just a random check shows, LAX-SFO/SEA/BOI/SJC last day bookable is 9/1. Suspect the same holds true for the remainder of LAX RJ flying.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10425 times:



Quoting LAXintl (Reply 18):
Just a random check shows, LAX-SFO/SEA/BOI/SJC last day bookable is 9/1. Suspect the same holds true for the remainder of LAX RJ flying.

Thanks for the heads up!  thumbsup 

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 16):
Like I said there has yet to be anyone say any of the routes will be stopped so why don't we wait to see what happens before we start saying crap like the above quote.

We are now seeing what "happens"...

OFFICIAL : LOS ANGELES ROUTE CUTS Late 2007/2008

45 Markets Terminated from Los Angeles

Acapulco ~ cxld eff 08/16
Belize City ~ Cxld
Boise ~ cxld eff 09/01
Boston ~ cxld eff 08/18
Columbus ~ cxld eff 08/18
Cozumel ~ Cxld
Culiacan ~ cxld eff 08/17
Denver ~ cxld eff 09/01
Eugene ~ cxld eff 09/01
Fort Lauderdale ~ Cxld
Guatemala City ~ Cxld
Hartford ~ cxld eff 08/18
Hermosillo ~ Cxld
Ixtapa ~ Cxld
Jacksonville ~ Cxld
Las Vegas ~ cxld eff 09/01
La Paz ~ cxld eff 08/01
Leon/Guanajuato ~ cxld eff 08/16
Loreto ~ cxld eff 08/17
Los Mochis ~ Cxld
Managua ~ Cxld
Manzanillo ~ cxld eff 08/17
Mazatlan ~ cxld eff 08/16
McAllen ~ Cxld
Oakland ~ cxld eff 09/01
Oklahoma City ~ Cxld
Palm Springs ~ Cxld
Phoenix ~ cxld eff 09/01
Portland ~ cxld eff 09/01
Queretaro ~ Cxld
Raleigh ~ Cxld
Reno ~ cxld eff 09/01
Sacramento ~ cxld eff 09/01
San Diego ~ Cxld
San Francisco ~ cxld eff 09/01
San Jose ~ cxld eff 09/01
Seattle ~ cxld eff 09/01
Spokane ~ cxld eff 09/01
Tijuana ~ Cxld
Torreon ~ cxld eff 08/15
Tucson ~ cxld eff 09/01
Vancouver ~ Cxld
Washington-Dulles ~ Cxld
Wichita ~ Cxld
Zacatecas ~ cxld eff 08/17

[Edited 2008-07-03 17:26:20]

User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10392 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 17):
For domestic I get 3 responses: American Airlines, United Airlines, and Southwest Airlines. For international I get 3 responses: American Airlines, United Airlines, and British Airways.

I am not surprised that American, United and Southwest come up first for domestic since they are three top airlines at LAX.

British Airways seems unlikely since both Qantas and Mexicana carry twice as many passengers as BA out of LAX. You should ask the man who mows your lawn who he flies when leaving town.  Smile


User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5421 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10352 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
CO will have to figure out how to redeploy the aircraft.

CO has already announced how they will redeploy them. They will fly CO routes replacing ExpressJet's less economical E-135's which will be parked.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineExpressjetphx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10292 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 19):
Phoenix ~ cxld eff 09/01

Luckily I have a ticket on that XJET service about one week before it is canceled.


User currently offlineCV880 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1130 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10279 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
But why even waste the time and money? The flights will almost certainly lose money anyway.

You are probably correct on that one, but historically DL has back out of the SFO-LAX market when there was very little competition.......just UA. For awhile DL had hourly service on 732's in the market, then off/on, for over 30yrs, they've had an assortment of skeds between the two airports, usually tag on flights from Florida, SJU, MSY. For awhile, I dealt with commuters who wanted to fly DL in the marktet, but went back to UA due to the inability to maintain some sort of logical presence in the market. Sure DL can have a LAX O&D Hub, providing the flights go where the crowd wants to go, but it sure helps to feed the hub and maintain a formidable presence, such as both UA & AA have at LAX...

From what I've seen, the RJ loads in just this market were fairly good, so there is demand. If they can fill a NW DC-9 in this and other LAX markets, maybe they should give it a go. With UA pulling out of some LAX longhaul markets, there is some opportunity. It was foolish for DL to give UA the LAX-LHR/FRA slots in the 1st place.


User currently offlineXJET From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 492 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10254 times:

Looks like it is time for me to find a home back east. Sheesh......haven't even been out here a year. Oh well, so goes the industry these days.

25 LAXintl : Delta never ran London service from LAX, and there are zero entry barriers to them trying FRA again today, besides the fact FRA is a big Star hub and
26 Commavia : While that may be true, we all know that high loads don't in any way equate to profitability, especially with $140/barrel oil, and especially with hi
27 Post contains links LAXintl : From LA Times online tonight. Full story; http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-delta4-2008jul04,0,2440776.story
28 WorldTraveler : DL's costs are almost identical to NW's and both are the lowest among the network carriers. If DL and NW's costs are too high to make money in LAX, t
29 Commavia : "The service cuts also will bring to an end Delta's ambitious plans to expand at LAX, making the largest airport in Southern California one of its maj
30 Post contains images Modesto2 : That may be true... But this ExpressJet LAX FO will miss you... [Edited 2008-07-03 19:15:39]
31 MAH4546 : Of course it won't. Even though Delta is now essentially back to just hub service, JFK, and some leisure markets, it won't settle anything among the
32 MtnWest1979 : Gee, that will only leave 2 carriers with nonstops to LAX from BOI. SkyWest/UA and Horizon/AS. I say this sarcastically. The DL folks here ,as well as
33 WorldTraveler : Tell us about AA's SJC hub... or its BNA, STL, or RDU hubs while you are at it. You could probably tell us about AA's cutbacks at ORD and DFW while y
34 Lambert747 : Do you think that people that fly Delta Air Lines/Connetion care if a flight is operated by Delta Air Lines or not? People dont care all they see thi
35 MAH4546 : Why? What do to they have to do with anything? AA closed up shop at SJC, RDU, and BNA, but so what? At least I can admit it those hubs are gone. I'm
36 Commavia : See, this right here is the reason why many people take issue with your posts, WorldTraveler. People discuss Delta's reduction in flying at LAX, and
37 Lambert747 : American Airlines cuts at ORD are due to domestic capacity downsizing, as are DFW due to domestic capacity downsizing. The reason that so many people
38 WorldTraveler : which should give you a great deal of assurance that when DL is ready to build LAX they will. and how many of those airlines even have more than a co
39 WorldTraveler : you also seem unable or unwilling to grasp that the flights that are being cut are XJET flights which were operated at risk by XJET bearing only DL fl
40 DeltaL1011man : That would be a hub BTW. Nope that pretty much does it for me. Well I personally blame Anderson. Should have moved more mainline flights into LA. Pre
41 Lono : DL has a proven record of non compete in the LAX market... they had it all at one point and they lost it... sorry but true... customers will not book
42 DeltaL1011man : Dude its over. Let it go WT its over.
43 Lono : again... it is over... DL blew it
44 Jacobin777 : We're hanging by a thread.. .....So you are telling me DFW has actually lost something? How many cities has DFW "lost"? Hint, its not a lot...if real
45 LAXintl : Not just that, but rumors are that the recently opened LAX 737 pilot base (population ~100) will take a hit if not shut as well due to the draw down
46 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : lax is loosing money they are not going to deploy mainline aircraft on these routes they will still loose money, the experiment failed AGAIN at LAX. T
47 Ikramerica : And they gave up the gate space!!!!! DL+NW will have 20 or so gates at LAX, and don't have anywhere near the traffic to fully use 10. All the while t
48 CV880 : IIRC, the Atlantic routes that DL purchased from PA included both SFO/LAX routes to LHR & FRA. DL flew the FRA route for awhile from both cities, but
49 United1 : No those LHR routes were purchased by UA a year before DL bought part of PAs assets....UA could start FRA-SFO/LAX due to open skies. DL purchased...
50 CV880 : Sorry, my bad.....as for FRA, DL just quit flying the LAX/SFO-FRA and UA took it over.
51 LAXintl : One of the covenants of LAX Two Corp. bylaws requires member airlines (the owners-NW/HA/AC) to maintain their operational presence at T-2. Hence why
52 Malaysia : Oh looks like OAK is cancelled, so I guess DL will only serve SLC from OAK, so is that a possibility that DL will pull out of OAK since it loses all i
53 Humberside : Whats left at LAX for DL now then: ATL CVG JFK SLC HNL ???
54 Ikramerica : I stand corrected. Is there somewhere where the articles of incorporation of Two Corp can easily be found? It sounds like Two Corp will have to vote
55 Ocracoke : OGG LIH KOA GDL MCO
56 Lambert747 : On average it looks like Delta Air Lines/Connection is now only flying 37 flights per day Seasonal Markets Anchorage ~ 3x per week Liberia, CR ~ 1x p
57 Ba744phx : So one would assume LAX is no longer a focus city then? Or would WT have something to say about that as well? I say this is a good thing the less DL
58 Laxintl : You can add GUA to seasonal as it gets discountinued Aug 18th, but is supposed to be back Dec 13th.
59 WorldTraveler : DL is investing in more new mainline flying elsewhere on its system than every other US network airline combined. Every airline has a limited budget
60 RwSEA : Hmm AA, UA, etc. seem to do fine. You keep repeating this cost business, which is important, but ignores brand recognition, market share, and frequen
61 Ikramerica : From 15+ gates. It's a travesty for every Los Angeles citizen that this is allowed. I think DL should be kicked out of T6 October 1, force them to su
62 Commavia : And I'm not sure why it is so hard for you - not many, just you - to understand that regardless of who was actually assuming the risk, the plane, the
63 Post contains links STT757 : DL was bragging back in 2000 that JFK would become their #1 International hub surpassing ATL, they bragged they would have brand new Terminal facilit
64 Lambert747 : Delta Air Lines tried at Los Angeles this time and it did not work. As has been expressed time and time again the pullback at Los Angeles began befor
65 OA412 : You constantly seem to forget about the fact that while DL did have every inteniton of going through with those plans in 2000, 9/11 came along and pu
66 CV880 : Agreed, and don't think the FF's in the West aren't pissed (ex SLC). I've seen for years SFO FF's routing via SLC to get to SEA, PDX, LAS, LAX, SAN j
67 WorldTraveler : what don't you hold that thought for the next nine months and we'll do a little comparison of who is doing fine and not fine; we get to see financial
68 Ocracoke : First, I agree that what DL is doing along the West coast is stoopid. Second, that being said, we have to seperate the West coast from the rest of th
69 LAXintl : Give it up WT Between mainline and the XJT flying, 45 odd LAX cities have ben wiped off the map. There is no way to categorize this other then a shear
70 Lambert747 : There has been a lot of pro-Delta posturing, however nothing has been debunked.. This is the point that people have made and are making time and time
71 WorldTraveler : please post a definition. if you feel better believing DL has failed at LAX, then go for it. I can assure you there will be far bigger and more conse
72 77411 : I would not go that far, the problem with DL at LAX is getting the DL brand to the top of peoples mind in the local market. Out of site out of mind.
73 OA412 : Where exactly did you get the idea that DL built up LAX at the expense of JFK? And, how would you have proposed that DL complete a new terminal at JF
74 DeltaL1011man : No it has alot to do with fuel. There are some markets that just didn't work (JAX) but there are some that where working at 100$ and below. No Gerry
75 Commavia : Um, I think AA recognizes it just fine - particularly since AA still does 100% of its overhauls within the United States, unlike any other airline in
76 Lambert747 : Comparing the AA NE-Florida markets and Delta Air Lines LAX yo-yo dont compare. When you are talking about the NE you are including many markets. Whe
77 DeltaL1011man : No he had it right. This DL first Build up. They took over the WA hub and let it die and then in 2006 Gerry started to bring it back and like i said
78 Post contains links Jacobin777 : Unlike you DL kool-aider where if DL states "we're flying ATL-South Pole"..all of you would someway, somehow justify how that route will do sensation
79 Lambert747 : Delta Air Lines would not have re-attempted LAX again if they wanted to focus on getting the JFK operation in order. The money that Delta Air Lines j
80 FATFlyer : Wow, are you saying the same thing about floods in other states, tornadoes, hurricanes, drought in the south, etc? Those don't "help the cause" in ot
81 Lambert747 : Look at Delta Air Lines history in the 1990's...
82 Commavia : I did some playing around in Excel with Delta's current schedule, and have put together a gate utilization schedule that fits their entire operation
83 DeltaL1011man : You miss that the Prot of NY/NJ is putting 20M into studying a plan? What else would you like? It coming so chill out. What money? WTF are you talkin
84 STT757 : Interesting to note AA still handles more International passengers at JFK than DL (1 Million more) , even with DL's "big" International expansion. Re
85 WorldTraveler : and yet that is the most global hub in the US. If DL can become the world's largest airline on the strength of the ATL hub, then it says they have so
86 Lambert747 : No, I just listen to informed posts that are backed up with factually evidence.. Not period.. The cuts started in 2007, before fuel soared.. You can'
87 DeltaL1011man : Nope as a stockholder of Delta Air Lines Anderson is not doing what he should be doing to make my stock go up........which is his job. Cutting more a
88 Lambert747 : Oh here we go.. Titles, Titles, Titles.. It doesn't mean much especially considering that people dont choose their airline, with the exception of a s
89 Commavia : Yeah, or it could mean that Delta has a good thing going ... but, others don't wish they had it, since they have other things that work for them. Onc
90 DeltaL1011man : But note that DL has almost twice as many flights from JFK than AA and also note its pretty easy to carry more PAX if you can fly 777s 5 times a day
91 Lambert747 : Which just so happen to be three of the biggest money making markets in the American Airlines network. Call it what one will. American Airlines still
92 Commavia : Don't look now, but I think that was precisely the point he was making.
93 FATFlyer : That doesn't answer my comment, just side-steps it. Would you make a similiar comment about Iowa if they were? What about somewhere else? Would you c
94 RwSEA : Wow, so much bile out of one person. The reason is because DL has dumped all their eggs in one basket at ATL. They have no other viable hubs. CVG and
95 Lambert747 : That has to be the most priceless comment I have ever seen on A.net...
96 OA412 : This is getting to be such a tired argument. I have seen every one of DL's "fanboys" criticize DL management. Yes, even WorldTraveler. I have also se
97 Flyboeingjets : You really have your facts crossed up on this. What does ExpressJet flying for Delta Connection have to do with ExpressJet, not Delta, gaining market
98 OA412 : You're kidding right? You're seriously questioning whether or not ATL has O & D. Last I checked, it is one of the top ten O & D markets in the US. Fa
99 Lambert747 : The below mentioned flights are not daily from New York-JFK: Accra Amman Bucharest Budapest Buenos Aires Cairo Dakar Guatemala City Kiev Liberia Lyon
100 OA412 : ACC is daily and LYS goes daily on the 17th. The rest of those destinations are clearly those that DL has decided do not support daily service. Now,
101 LAXintl : All this talk about "at risk" or not for the LA flying and it does not matter to DL. But lets not forget --- ACA, BDL, BZE, BOS, CMH, CZM, FLL, GUA, J
102 Lambert747 : The reference of course is supported with the fact of other international routes being terminated/suspended which include: ATL- ~Athens ~Edinburgh Fo
103 Commavia : I see your point, but it is not as if there was zero cost to all this. Delta did have to pay for marketing and other related expenses, plus there wil
104 Lincoln : Out of curiosity, is there a provision if an airline needs more gates than are available in T2? Based on the combined NW/DL flying, it doesn't seem l
105 DLflynhayn : Well i work at a local hotel near Lax part time as a doorman,and in the last year i have definitely sent more guests to T5 DL to destinations like SE
106 RwSEA : Wasn't it JD Powers that just gave PHL the best airport in the country award?
107 OA412 : I do agree with you and I don't mean to come across as saying that DL didn't incur any expenses related to the LAX buildup. I was making a point more
108 OA412 : Re read what he wrote. He claimed that the cancellation of VIE equaled a big retrenchment from ATL-Europe flying which is hardly the case and your li
109 RwSEA : No I didn't, I said that ATL is maxing out at it's international capacity, and we're seeing symptoms of that in the list of recently-cut destinations
110 Post contains images Jacobin777 : So? What does that have to do with DL's failure@LAX? Why do you not answer my query WT? Why do you always side-step it? There it is below. ..Please p
111 Ikramerica : + 2 1/2 gates in T6, on which they are squatting. I think DL can bide their time and remain as main T5 tenant once NW merges, but NW ops have to leav
112 Commavia : That is going to be very interesting to watch. Delta alone doesn't need any more than about half of Terminal 5. Northwest alone also doesn't need mor
113 Jetlanta : American has just announced massive pull downs across its network, including LAX. What pray tell is the difference? My friend, with all due respect,
114 LAXintl : ATL comes in #5, as the top domestic O&D airport with ~26mil local boardings in 2007. However when 'markets' are considered, Atlanta drops below #10
115 WorldTraveler : the FAA never said DL didn't install the clips per FAA guidelines. That is exactly why they grounded AA's MD80s. amen, brother. no one said that at a
116 Jetlanta : I suspect you are on the right track here. The major sticking point will be accommodation of multiple widebodies at T5. DL has some flexibility on th
117 Ikramerica : The problem with T5 as it's configured is that it can't easily accommodate VLAs or even 77W or A346 aircraft. This limits it's value to most internat
118 Jacobin777 : Yes.."comparable" now..not in 2004,2005, 2006, 2007 or part of 2008.... non-sequitur...they have nothing to do with each other.. How did I offend "th
119 MAH4546 : Maybe not, except for Atlanta that is. Atlanta is getting a frequency boost from LaGuardia after the cuts.
120 Commavia : No, they weren't, at least not the first few times. In fact, in the scheme of things, AA made the same mistake with San Jose (and to a lesser extent
121 Post contains links Lambert747 : Per : http://www.delta.com I looked at ATL-VCE, ATL-ATH, ATL-SNN in November These were the options for ATL-VCE DL134/DL150 ATL 1430 VCE 0940+1 JFK D
122 Commavia : That can likely be worked out, though, since, again, Delta doesn't need all the gates it has in Terminal 5. It would mean giving up a few gates, but
123 Post contains images Jacobin777 : You can come out with all of the b.s. you want WT...but the facts basically prove you are either lying to us and/or lying to yourself and/or simply c
124 DeltaL1011man : Never said it wasn't. Ok Lam lets get this straight.You act like a give a crap about AA/DL at JFK when I don't. As long as Atlanta is safe I'm good.
125 DeltaL1011man : Nairobi is due to the government and the mess that is going on. The other route are 757 routes that can't make money due to fuel. (hell most didn't e
126 RwSEA : Well, by my calculation DL and their connection partners have dropped dozens of markets from LAX in the last few weeks. No such similar cutbacks by o
127 DeltaL1011man : I agree 100% I have been saying it since day 1!. If DL wants to make it in LA they have to fly mainline planes to the big markets. Also some props fo
128 Aaway : I'll just copy a response I made in a now locked thread that addressed this: Quoting Travelin man I wonder if DL could maintain the ownership stake e
129 Jetlanta : No one claimed it is at the top. One thing that is clear, however, is that Delta is a likely survivor among U.S. network carriers. UA may not be, and
130 Humberside : Think they see no flights They might see consistency from EWR though To be fair to DL could be an issue getting suitable LHR slots rather than them s
131 WorldTraveler : but AA is cancelling more markets out of NYC than any other airline. We could easily deduce that AA can't compete in those markets - and showing us t
132 Commavia : Delta has a high probably of survival, absolutely. But honestly, so does United. United is poorly managed and has made stupid decisions, but I doubt
133 Jetlanta : Exactly. Give Glen Hauenstein 800+ mainline aircraft and 50+ 787's and an industry full of turmoil and failure and see what happens. See, the problem
134 LawnDart : Huh? Memphis is in the south / southeast, and MSP is in the (way) upper midwest. Wouldn't MEM be folded into ATL? According to data supplied by Jacob
135 Commavia : Meant to type Atlanta. Those numbers are totals - not O&D. No, because the small, fuel-efficient cars they specialize in are something that the marke
136 Mayor : Ah yes, another "objective" poster.
137 Mayor : It's also an insult to those of us that worked for Delta for many years. We weren't all "kool-aid" drinkers, as you like to say, but, we were all loy
138 Lincoln : Or we can just as easily deduce that given that AA is the largest passenger carrier by # of flights even if AA and any other carrier cut an identical
139 Mayor : What were the circumstances where the supervisor screamed at you? Can we hear an "objective" telling of the story?
140 LawnDart : The latest models Hyundai has introduced include the Azera (large V6 sedan, EPA 18/26), the Veracruz (large V6 SUV, EPA 16/23) and soon, the Genesis
141 MAH4546 : Big deal. They are canceling eight RJ markets and one mainline market in a depressed economy (three of those markets continue to be served from JFK).
142 United1 : I usualy agree with you Mayor but do a quick search when you get a minute CO does get bashed around a bit as does NW, UA, US, AA, ect.... One of the
143 RwSEA : The reason is because the DL fanboys are the most aggressive and annoying group on this entire message board these days, with WT leading the pack. He
144 Post contains images Lambert747 :    Indeed, a few Gin & Tonics later I realized the mistake was made.. Who's fault is that rather than paying the premium like other airlines in the
145 Ikramerica : Come now. Some of the DL fans on this site are so over the top, it's funny. Funnier than "The Romance of Travel" and "Travel in a New Light."
146 Post contains images CV880 : Total BS....DL has had a large following in NYC since the merger with NE in 1972. Where do the NYC'ers go....Florida. Only one of 3 carriers that fle
147 Lambert747 : A large following, however not one of the top 3 in the New York market.. A large following, however not one of the top 3 in the Los Angeles market..
148 WorldTraveler : You are free to like or dislike me. With 6 billion people in the world, it is a given that we will not all get along. This is an aviation forum. You
149 Lambert747 : It was discussed in great detail that ExpressJet was not paying for: the Delta Air Lines marketing campaigns in the markets that Delta was attempting
150 Commavia : Yeah, but here's the funny thing about those "facts" you seem to be so fond of: your facts aren't always the same as mine, or anyone else's. What you
151 SESGDL : In terms of passengers carried only, and with AA's and DL's continued international growth (with DL's growth outpacing AA's) that number may very wel
152 WorldTraveler : check the spelling. it's the details that count. there actually is very little dispute about the facts... it's which facts are used and how they are
153 Lambert747 : Those that predicted/knew Delta Air Lines latest build up was/is being torn down again saw the writing on the wall from day one of this latest round.
154 CV880 : So forgetting the "at risk" bit of XJ (or the little out of pocket to DL), why does DL go in there again and let something 'fail' and thus tarnish it
155 Commavia : For the last time, nobody was denying it, because nobody was even discussing it. We weren't discussing who was paying for the half-empty ERJ to fly f
156 Mayor : I didn't say that didn't. It still makes it an insult. All I can give you is my own personal experience. That's how I felt. That's how we ALL felt.
157 Jetlanta : Again, there is far too much conventional wisdom and assumption on this board. There are facts available. Here they are: DL/NW will have about 800 ma
158 DeltaL1011man : Really? Ask UA how they made out with there LAX-PVG route. Also had Atlanta had China flights we would have ATL-PVG and ATL-PEK. As I have said befor
159 OA412 : Which LAX-PVG route? UA applied for but did not receive the authority to operate LAX-PVG. I think you're confusing it with UA's recent withdrawal fro
160 LAXdude1023 : A little point of Clarification. There is a misconception that people on this board hate DL because they are so great. Not true. The people on this b
161 Lambert747 : Atlanta does not have the daily demand, nor the all to important yield that is required to make a route of such a stage lengh a financial success on
162 DeltaL1011man : No thats what I meant UA didn't get LAX-PVG why would Delta. Not only that but PVG would not be able to live with the very little feed DL has. Period
163 United1 : Could not have said it better myself....it all comes down to one thing in my book and that is showing RESPECT to one another and one another's views.
164 OA412 : Forgive me but what kind of argument is that? To dislike an airline because of poor past experience is understandable. But, to dislike an airline bec
165 OA412 : UA didn't get LAX-PVG because they already have more US-China frequencies than any other carrier and because they were awarded SFO-CAN. Had any other
166 LAXdude1023 : Thats just the way it is. I doubt there many (if any) people on here who hate DL for the hell of it. But if you get insulted, bullied, and have your
167 Lambert747 : They are so there that the flight dropped from daily to 5 flights per week.. Premium yields are drawn in nonstop markets such as LAX-SYD, JFK-LHR, MI
168 United1 : I don't hate Delta at all in fact the 10 flights or so I took on them were generally pleasant, and I have family thats retired from Delta so I would
169 Post contains images Lambert747 :       I have both criticized Delta Air Lines and commended Delta Air Lines. As I have criticized other airlines and commended other airlines. We
170 LAXdude1023 : While that is true for the most part, there are flights out there (based on connections) that do extremely well. An example ill use is DFW-GRU on AA.
171 DeltaL1011man : Till AA or UA get LAX-PVG and push Delta right out of the market. Atlanta was and still is a safe bet. I will also note that if demand doesn't drop o
172 Lambert747 : Exactly, the precise reason that NYC-LHR, LAX-SYD, LAX-NRT, SFO-HKG are hallmark routes for the airlines that serve them. The connections are one par
173 LAXdude1023 : Well no. LAX-PVG is could easily support 2 or 3 daily flight off O&D alone. LAX is by far the largest market to Asia in the USA.
174 United1 : IAD-KWI was never a 744, the route originally was ment to operate 4 days a week however bookings were/are so strong that the flight was made daily.
175 MAH4546 : IAD-KWI was never a 744. It was launched as a 3x weekly 772; and quickly became daily.
176 Lambert747 : When was IAD-KWI a 744?? The LAX-PVG route has six major components: O&D, Los Angeles, Shanghai, Business, VFR, Cargo Atlanta is missing a number of
177 DeltaL1011man : It doesn't have the O&D I understand that but the doesn't mean the flight is doing bad like you say. My bad guys Which i knew but the way things are
178 Lambert747 : SEA-PEK starts in 2009 with the A332
179 CV880 : So let me get this straight.......DL has insufficient conx in LAX for Any Pacific routes? If they couldn't make a go of PVG, they may as well pull th
180 DeltaL1011man : Maybe You should read my post. I WANT LAX TO BE A HUB FOR DELTA!!!!!!! Yes DL has insufficient connection to/from LAX lets see whats left shall we? h
181 Lambert747 : LAX does not need a bunch of connecting flights to make the network viable. In fact the other day it was either WT or Jetlanta that commented on LAX
182 WA707atMSP : I've been away from ANet for 1 1/2 weeks due, in part to my being on vacation at the DFW Airliners International convention, so please forgive me for
183 LAXintl : Well I dont have the play to play -- however sometime after Hughes days, RC ended up in T-3. I very well remember their 727s and occasional MD-80 at
184 DeltaL1011man : No LAX will not have to be an SLC,CVG,ATL but look at JFK and try to tell me it is all O/D and No connecting flights. I never said LAX had to have ma
185 Lambert747 : I have heard an estimate that on average JFK flights are based on 60-70% O/D of any given load and the balance is connecting traffic. This is why Del
186 SESGDL : ATL is one of the ten largest O&D markets from almost any US city and one of the top three from many East Coast markets. Internationally this is cert
187 Lambert747 : It is very questionable.. There are many who say and will agree that the Worlds largest O&D markets claim the most profitable returns.
188 LAXdude1023 : I agree completely. Hub flying is going to be the way of the future given how expensive fuel is and the crappy state of the dollar and the economy. A
189 SESGDL : Absolutely. But many carriers (in the US) are now unwilling to offer many of these services without some form of connectivity. While MIA is AA's most
190 MasseyBrown : You're probably right; but am I the only one who will go far to avoid the mega-hubs? Fortunately, I can usually find a non-stop from where I live, bu
191 DeltaL1011man : You missed my point. What I'm saying is that connections are possible in JFK. In LAX DL has very very few connections. In JFK and LAX they are mostly
192 LAXintl : Glen Hauenstein EVP Network had an employee Q&A last week -- LAX and its future came up on a few occasions. Here is what he said. In summary to me, th
193 Jetlanta : You don't understand Glen very well.
194 Sdexplorer00 : It's my understanding that the LA "pulldown" had more to do with elimating another DL Connection carrier and removing some rj capacity than it did wit
195 WA707atMSP : Then why aren't the routes being taken over by, say, OH? If the routes were a success, DL would have re assigned them to one of their ongoing partner
196 Sdexplorer00 : The window for Expressjet to give back the planes was September. When a new partner or Delta metal with the right capacity are located (possibly post
197 Lono : Please tell us what he was saying then all knowing one....
198 Commavia : I'm still left scratching my head and asking why? The LAX market does not need a few hundred more seats per day to San Francisco, or a few dozen more
199 Sdexplorer00 : That is what I said, this was an opportunity to park some 50 seaters. The routes that will be restarted will not be with them.
200 LAXintl : And loose even more $$? Its pretty clear not much if anything for DL stuck with its LAX flying RJ or mainline. As such I dont see many markets that h
201 Commavia : Right, but 50-seaters or not, it still doesn't change the fact that these routes simply do not need the additional capacity. Delta's latest failure a
202 WA707atMSP : AND give up the surplus gates at LAX, so other airlines can use them!
203 Ocracoke : Why, if....... IF the LAX market is already well served, why would other airlines need the surplus gates? Or are you suggesting that even though LAX
204 WA707atMSP : Because other airlines are struggling to accomodate their existing schedules in their existing facilities. AA's T4 is absolutely bursting at the seam
205 DeltaL1011man : agreed. Glen Isn't the type that just puts the plans out in the open. He will keep it quite till the PR comes out Something like that Because 50 seat
206 LAXintl : Well if they made money, I cant see any reason why they would have vacated the 40 odd markets they did from LAX including ones operated by mainline e
207 WA707atMSP : I don't think any of DL's partners can make the routes work. That was the point of my message. If DL was discontinuing the routes just to end the ExJ
208 Commavia : Because, as WA707atMSP said, other airlines' gates are absolutely bursting at the seems and already handled multiple times more capacity than they we
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