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Rumor: JetBlue Looking At FLL-FOR  
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 7027 times:

It is just a rumor, so take it for what its worth, but I wouldn't bother posting it if I didn't trust it's validity.

JetBlue might be filing an application in the near future to start service between Fort Lauderdale and Fortaleza, Brazil, taking advantage of the new U.S.-Brazil air treaty that went into effect Tuesday. The idea is being strongly considered but there are - not surprisingly - serious [emphasis on "serious"] concerns about the A320's range on this route that might not make it possible. At about 3,000nm, FLL-FOR is within the A320's maximum range, but it's really cutting it. However, the largely N/S path of this route means they can do a better job to exploit the range of the A320. They are also looking at whether or not it would be economically viable to put a cap on the number of seats sold, as they do on the Burbank-JFK route.

As an alternative, service to Belem, easily within an A320s range from Fort Lauderdale (about 100nm longer than BOS-OAK, but it is a N/S route), is being considered, but the local market is much smaller.

This follows today's announcement that Spirit will has applied for Fort Lauderdale-Manaus service.

Pompano Beach, Florida - a Fort Lauderdale suburb - has a huge ex-pat community from the Fortaleza region. In the mid-2000s, Universal Guyana announced plans to extend their FLL-GEO flight to FOR, but they never got government approval.


a.
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1143 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6980 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter):
FLL-FOR is within the A320's maximum range, but it's really cutting it.

Aren't there things B6 could do to extend the A320's range?



If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

How will the DOT rule on this since B6 was trying to get Bogota shelved? Wouldn't the previous attempt to shelve Bogota be against them when it comes to the DOT ruling in favor/against Jet Blue for Brasilian frequencies.

User currently offlinePropilotJW From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 589 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6960 times:

Of course. Just weld on some extra tanks on the wings and tail. Simple fix! Damn aerodynamics.  Smile

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6942 times:

While I am no expert, I do think that if B6 capped the flight at 120-125 passengers, the A320 can make it just fine. But will the fact that 25 seats are going out empty erase the route's viability? That's possible.


a.
User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 832 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6767 times:



Quoting MKE22 (Reply 1):
Aren't there things B6 could do to extend the A320's range?

Hmm... well, they already took out a few seats and a F/A. They could do without the LiveTV system, which is no good offshore, anyway - who needs those movies? Then, they could eliminate the TerraBlues - heavy things that they are. Hmm... what else? If they can land safely with a twisted nosegear, why can't they land without nosewheels at all? There's a savings in avionics, too. While we're at it, perhaps one of the engines could be left at home for these runs. It's not like that route requires ETOPS. And it would be more fuel-efficient that way, too.


User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 6636 times:



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 5):
Hmm... well, they already took out a few seats and a F/A. They could do without the LiveTV system, which is no good offshore, anyway - who needs those movies? Then, they could eliminate the TerraBlues - heavy things that they are. Hmm... what else? If they can land safely with a twisted nosegear, why can't they land without nosewheels at all? There's a savings in avionics, too. While we're at it, perhaps one of the engines could be left at home for these runs. It's not like that route requires ETOPS. And it would be more fuel-efficient that way, too.

That route FLL-FOR is 3000nm, the A320 has a max range of 3000nm, so unless they are stopping somewhere the A320 cannot fly there non stop, they have to account for reserves, winds, baggage and such, so unless B6 get the longer range A319 it may just be a rumour.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineB6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6337 times:

our A320 may not be able to do FLL-FOR nonstop but what about the possibility of a "through" flight pit stop in SJU?

According to Great Circle Mapper:

FLL-FOR: 3460 mi

FLL-SJU-FOR: 3462 - FLL/SJU: 1046mi; SJU/FOR: 2416

i'm not familiar at all with brazilian traffic to the U.S. except for what i read on here...but is there a possibility SJU can help provide some lift to this route?


User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6249 times:



Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 7):
our A320 may not be able to do FLL-FOR nonstop but what about the possibility of a "through" flight pit stop in SJU?

It could work, but that will make SJU a base for B6 to do such flights.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6214 times:



Quoting Caribbean484 (Reply 6):

That route FLL-FOR is 3000nm, the A320 has a max range of 3000nm, so unless they are stopping somewhere the A320 cannot fly there non stop, they have to account for reserves, winds, baggage and such, so unless B6 get the longer range A319 it may just be a rumour.

The A320 has a range of 3,100nm, and, IIRC, B6 has some A320s with extra fuel tanks.



a.
User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6208 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 9):
The A320 has a range of 3,100nm, and, IIRC, B6 has some A320s with extra fuel tanks.

I went by Airbus' website to get the exact range of the a/c and they quoted as 3000nm max with all extra tanks, I stand to be corrected.
Either way it will not work nonstop.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineSXI899 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2008, 270 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6190 times:



Quoting Caribbean484 (Reply 6):
That route FLL-FOR is 3000nm, the A320 has a max range of 3000nm, so unless they are stopping somewhere the A320 cannot fly there non stop, they have to account for reserves, winds, baggage and such, so unless B6 get the longer range A319 it may just be a rumour.

The 3000nm figure takes into account standard reserves (although alternate options for Manaus might require more fuel), and 150 pax (including luggage). The fact that the routing is north-south, means that the winds should not have any noteworthy influence on the flight.

As Mark suggests, by blocking a number of seats, the aircraft should be able to perform the route with little difficulty, the question is then if it remains financially viable.



Any Type, Any Time, Anywhere
User currently offlinePhileet92 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5859 times:

well once they get to Brazil they could do some business with Azul and David Neeleman.

User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5820 times:



Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 7):
i'm not familiar at all with brazilian traffic to the U.S. except for what i read on here...but is there a possibility SJU can help provide some lift to this route?

From what I understand American Airlines was at one point in the 1990's looking at service from the San Juan hub to Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. The findings were that San Juan does not have/had enough pax to support even a meager 10% O/D in the market. I fail to see how in 10 year or so the San Juan market has suddenly gained little if any additional demand for service to Brasil.


User currently offlinePRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5772 times:

Wonder what AA is waiting to add GEO, FOR, REC, MAO, ASU, COR to its network. Service from MIA might be profitable on 757/763s.

User currently offlineIcebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5733 times:

I know first hand that JetBlue is looking at 319s and 321s. That came from Bargers mouth directly to me. Now wether they have changed a few 320s to 319s, I don't know. But in this case I think it would be a good idea. Also they could be used on some of the thinner cross country flights.


LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5698 times:



Quoting Icebird757 (Reply 15):
Also they could be used on some of the thinner cross country flights.

Doesnt the A321 underperform compared to the A320 on Trans-Cons?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5623 times:

Excellent news and with JetBlue and Spirit starting service to under-served destiations in Brazil it means that the new bilateral has ushered in a new era for the Brazilian aviation. We could also expect GOL to look at possible market potentials, especially BSB-MIA or MAO-MIA. MAO-MIA now with double daily TAM and Spirit, something nobody would have dream of last year!

Lets now hope that Brazil gets the US visa waiver, since it is already included in the selected number of countries which refusal rate below the cap, and that the Brazilian Congress approves the end of visa requiremet for US citizens. The main problem I see is the strong Real versus the extremely weak Dollar.

Rgs @ JFK


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5615 times:



Quoting Phileet92 (Reply 12):
well once they get to Brazil they could do some business with Azul and David Neeleman.

That wouldn't surprise me. I wonder where Azul will be hubbed.

Quoting Icebird757 (Reply 15):
I know first hand that JetBlue is looking at 319s and 321s. That came from Bargers mouth directly to me. Now wether they have changed a few 320s to 319s, I don't know. But in this case I think it would be a good idea. Also they could be used on some of the thinner cross country flights.

This is great! I didn't realize you could change the A320 into an A319 but if they did it would be awesome. There are some markets out there where an A319 would be great to use. Fortaleza is a great market and if they can get to Rio de Janiero or Sao Paulo, it would be even better.



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineB6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5606 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 16):
Doesnt the A321 underperform compared to the A320 on Trans-Cons?

trans-con's yes (especially in the all-coach config)...but BOS/JFK/IAD to texas, Florida, and the islands would be perfect (range wise that is). MCO, FLL, PBI, and SJU would be great candidates for the A321.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5595 times:



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 18):

That wouldn't surprise me. I wonder where Azul will be hubbed.

Rumour has it that they are choosing between GIG and CNF.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 5547 times:



Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Rumour has it that they are choosing between GIG and CNF.



Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 18):
That wouldn't surprise me. I wonder where Azul will be hubbed.

As a matter of principle, Azul will not have a so called hub because it will mainly serve point to poiny under-served markets. They will NOT focus on connections.

There are also rumours (I got this one from Lipe yesterday) that Azul is doing a strong lobby to lift the restrictions on SDU so that it can therefore focus its flights in this airport.

Rgs


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5434 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 21):
As a matter of principle, Azul will not have a so called hub because it will mainly serve point to poiny under-served markets. They will NOT focus on connections.

There are also rumours (I got this one from Lipe yesterday) that Azul is doing a strong lobby to lift the restrictions on SDU so that it can therefore focus its flights in this airport.

Well, if both serve Fortaleza they can connect some pax there. Although everyone will have a three-leg flight (somewhere in America-FLL-Fortaleza-somewhere in Brazil).



2013 World Series Champions!
User currently offlineIcebird757 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 662 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5428 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 16):
Doesnt the A321 underperform compared to the A320 on Trans-Cons?

Yes they do. I meant that the 319 would be used on transcons.

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 18):
I didn't realize you could change the A320 into an A319 but if they did it would be awesome.

Some of the outstanding orders would be converted from 320s to 319s.



LGB....where you can watch the grass grow because the traffic is so slow.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32788 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4977 times:



Quoting Caribbean484 (Reply 10):

I went by Airbus' website to get the exact range of the a/c and they quoted as 3000nm max with all extra tanks, I stand to be corrected.
Either way it will not work nonstop.

Yes, it will work non-stop, but B6 will need to put a passenger cap and will not be able to sell all 150 seats.



a.
25 Icebird757 : I just worked N591JB and it still has the setup in the belly for the extra fuel tank. I wonder if they could just put the extra tank back in the plane
26 C010T3 : I know, but the airline will concentrate the operationial part in one city, so I expect them to have a large quantity of flights at one airport.
27 Hardiwv : This is also my argument. I really dont think that any airline operating a significant fleet, as will be the case of Azul, can avoid a hub operation
28 C010T3 : I am also against it. I actually think that JJ and G3 should be too. That would drive their yields at GIG down and make them perhaps reduce flights t
29 BOStonsox : Oh, so converting meaning they will recieve A319s instead of A320s. I knew that the A319 was a modified version of the A320 and when I saw the word "
30 N623jb : Why Dont they look at bigger aircraft? A330s? B767s?
31 Icebird757 : Why would they? Can't make money running a wide body cross country at their fares. Just doesn't make sense. Also now your adding another a/c type to
32 DiscoverCSG : Ah, the old chainsaw-and-superglue method of converting a 320 into a 319!
33 Incitatus : The chance of an airline putting 150 seats on South Florida to Fortaleza and actually making money is small. The chance of an airline putting a 150-s
34 Post contains links MAH4546 : Sampaio conta que as americanas Spirit e JetBlue já demonstraram interesse em voar para essas regiões. A primeira tem planos para Manaus e a segund
35 Mtb555 : I can't see jetBlue doing this, esp. when putting Bogota on hold. Why put one city on hold after the whole application process then try to start anot
36 Richierich : I thought the extra fuel tank experiment turned out to be a bust. Not only did it rob all kinds of cargo/baggage room (something the A320 doesn't hav
37 Mtb555 : There are a couple of a/c's still setup with the extra tanks. They are in the rear cargo hold, bin 3. A previous post in this thread listed tail 591
38 Caribbean484 : This route will not work, no airline will and expecially in this time even evnture out with such a long nonstop flight and make it work, especially B
39 PPVRA : Remember the culture of hauling a lot of luggage around at 30K+ feet Latin Americans have. . . that offsets some of those restrictions. I can't imagi
40 MAH4546 : It's actually not a rumor. It has already been reported in Brazilian media, and I provided a link.
41 SJOtoLIR : The flow of passengers really exist between South Florida and the Brazilian northeastern bound. JJ flies FOR-BEL-MAO-MIA and back everyday with the 3
42 FreakyDeaky : Can you translate or paraphrase that article? Looks like gibberish to me.
43 SKYYBLUE : The article is about the new air agreement between Brazil and the U.S. The important line: U.S. carriers Spirit and JetBlue have already demonstrated
44 Csavel : All I know is that I live for the day when I can go see Mom in Phase II of del Boca vista, hop on a flight to Fortaleza and come back a few days later
45 Super Em : I'm confused. I thought they pulled out of (or suspended) LAX due to fuel and now they are looking at this.
46 N623JB : They have delayed the route JFK-LAX probably for a few more months(and yes it was because of the fuel prices), and MCO-BOG for a couple of years. I ho
47 MAH4546 : Fortaleza can command 2-3x the fares of LAX.
48 Alianza : We should give more credit to B6 for having the courage to be innovative and consider new routes, given the current operating environment !
49 N623JB : Julian to B6: (clapping).....Im proud of you jetBlue. I love you always. You are the best! Keep up the good work!
50 Icebird757 : Actually this is not a couple of years, only until the end of this year or early next year.
51 Richierich : Exactly! The LAX-NYC market is already saturated thanks to the heavy competition, and Jetblue themselves have the LA covered with BUR and LGB. I'm no
52 BOStonsox : I'm not an expert either, but international flights seem to be the most profitable, at least the ones that aren't too long. That's a big reason why D
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