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Will Frontier Get DIP? Can They Survive Without It  
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9645 times:

There are many threads on Frontier, but my guess is it all boils down to this:

Will Frontier be able to get DIP? If they can, does that ensure their near-term survival? If they can't, can they still survive?

What do y'all think about this?

115 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1148 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9639 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Will Frontier be able to get DIP?

What is a DIP? What does that stand for? Yes I think they can survive without it. They are going to be able to turn things around eventually.



If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9634 times:



Quoting MKE22 (Reply 1):
They are going to be able to turn things around eventually.

Not with fuel at close to four bucks a gallon and no cash reserves. I dont give them
60 days....and thats being lenient.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25692 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9627 times:
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Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
There are many threads on Frontier,

And you felt there was a need for yet another one?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2858 posts, RR: 48
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9587 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Will Frontier be able to get DIP? If they can, does that ensure their near-term survival? If they can't, can they still survive?

I have no insider information, but my guess is that the answers are no, no, and no.

I agree with Mariner that we really don't need another doom and gloom thread about Frontier.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9587 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
And you felt there was a need for yet another one?

Sure there is---we need to figure out whether it was SWA starting/expanding DEN service, or the skyrocketing cost of fuel, or the competency of management that is the cause of their woes...  Yeah sure

(and for the sarcasm-impaired, that's already been hashed and re-hashed on the existing threads...)


User currently offlineIflyatldl From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1936 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9586 times:



Quoting MKE22 (Reply 1):
What is a DIP? What does that stand for?

I for one, had the same question....Deferment in Payment?



Ah, Summer, Fenway Park, Boston Red Sox and Beer.....
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

DIP = Debtor-In-Possession financing.

Basically, its the cash some external party (usually a bank or other large financial institution) gives a company operating in Chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to keep them operating through the bankruptcy proceedings.

Without DIP, the bankrupt firm is no more.


User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1148 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9513 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Basically, its the cash some external party (usually a bank or other large financial institution) gives a company operating in Chapter 11 bankruptcy in order to keep them operating through the bankruptcy proceedings.

Without DIP, the bankrupt firm is no more.

So... they are asking for a cash handout like VX basically? Obviously with no more cash, no more F9. Every airline is hurting right now, maybe with the exception of G4 and WN.



If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9462 times:

Here is a well explained definition.


Debtor-In-Possession (DIP) financing is offered to companies in business bankruptcy for the purpose of bankruptcy financing. In most cases, DIP financing is considered attractive because it is done only under order of the Bankruptcy Court, which is empowered by the Bankruptcy Code.

Debtor-in-Possesion financing can also provide corporate bankruptcy financing to engage in a prepackaged business bankruptcy where the asset based lender providing DIP financing supplies the funds to work out a settlement with creditors up front, in order to walk into corporate bankruptcy court with this prepacked settlement. An asset based lender providing Debtor-In-Possession financing following the filing of either a voluntary or involuntary corporate bankruptcy proceeding utilizes the same fundamental asset valuation approach to provide the loan as it would utilize for a company not in business bankruptcy.

The availability of DIP financing may depend on the perceived viability of the company during the proceeding and on its ability to successfully complete a Plan of Reorganization (POR). The Plan of Reorganization must specify how the debtor intends to pay the creditors and Debtor-in-Possession financing is a means toward that end.

Potential DIP uses;
Bankruptcy Financing: Voluntary or Involuntary Bankruptcy
Plan of Reorganization
Restructuring
Turnaround Financing



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11973 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9456 times:



Quoting MKE22 (Reply 8):
So... they are asking for a cash handout like VX basically?

Sort of.

The one key difference is that Virgin is still, technically, a going concern, meaning that it is solvent and is not under the supervision and protection of a bankruptcy court. Thus, it is seeking to access the capital markets for financing to operate.

In the case of Frontier, the company is no longer solvent, and instead is operating under the protection of a bankruptcy judge. This means that the company is protected from creditors and vendors making unilateral acts of self-protection, like repossessing assets, etc., but it also means that they have basically no ability to freely access the open capital markets, and thus must have DIP financing in order to continue to operate.

Quoting MKE22 (Reply 8):
Obviously with no more cash, no more F9.

Indeed.

In these times, pretty much the only number that matters is cash in the bank. If a public company is a body, cash is like the blood: lose the blood, the body dies.

Profit and loss are paper numbers and the result of accounting calculations. They are useful tools in assessing a company's financial condition and drawing conclusions about, and comparisons between, peer companies.

However, cash is the only number that involves virtually no estimation, no assumption, no rounding of anything. It is simple and straightforward, and in the long-run, profits and losses do not determine if a company survives - cash does.

Quoting MKE22 (Reply 8):
Every airline is hurting right now, maybe with the exception of G4 and WN.

Everyone is feeling it - including Allegiant and Southwest.

Some - for a variety of reasons - are feeling it more or less than others, and fairing better or worse, but most definitely everyone is feeling it.


User currently offline102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1156 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9425 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Will Frontier be able to get DIP?

I think you mean will Frontier be able to get DIP Financing? They already are a Debtor in Possession. Any individual or corporation that operates their business during their bankruptcy is a debtor in possession.

DIP Financing is the lending of money to an individual or corporation while in bankruptcy. But the availability of DIP financing to F9 or any other chapter 11 petitioner for that matter depends on the perceived viability of the company during the proceeding and on its ability to successfully complete a Plan of Reorganization (POR). So the fact that F9 was not able to line up DIP Financing is a red flag. But I'm not aware of their cash position, so it's possible (but highly unlikely) they didn't need DIP Financing. Also DIP Financing is done with the order of the court only.
Will F9 get DIP Financing? Probably not.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9374 times:



Quoting MKE22 (Reply 1):
What is a DIP? What does that stand for? Yes I think they can survive without it.

Sorry, but out of curiosity, how can you make a judgment of thinking they can survive without DIP.......when you don't even know what it is????

Quoting MKE22 (Reply 8):
So... they are asking for a cash handout like VX basically?

Eh? absolute nonsense, and do you know what you're supposedly discussing at all?


User currently offlineMKE22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1148 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 9339 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 12):
Eh? absolute nonsense, and do you know what you're supposedly discussing at all?

Yeah maybe if you looked at reply 10 where he explained it then you would see I do know what I'm talking about.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 12):

Sorry, but out of curiosity, how can you make a judgment of thinking they can survive without DIP.......when you don't even know what it is????

Because maybe I believe the people at F9 are hard working at this, and aren't just going to throw away all F9 is and what they have been working at restructuring for months now... just a guess maybe.



If Your not pissed, your not trying
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13750 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 9290 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
Virgin is still, technically, a going concern, meaning that it is solvent and is not under the supervision and protection of a bankruptcy court.

For the time being...  Wink



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9127 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
Sure there is---we need to figure out whether it was SWA starting/expanding DEN service, or the skyrocketing cost of fuel, or the competency of management that is the cause of their woes... Yeah sure

I did not ask about any of the above. I don't propose yet another discussion of what got Frontier into this mess and I thought that was clear from the thread starter.

If the other threads were not dominated by the issues you mentioned, I would not have started this one. I just want a focused discussion about the short term financial situation. Specifically, I would like to know from more informed minds whether Frontier is likely to get DIP, and how critical it is that they get it. That's all. From what I have seen, that specific issue has gotten only passing mention in other threads. The other threads cover Frontier's long term woes well, but they don't do a good job in discussing Frontier's short term financial situation.

Another way of putting it.....we have spent a lot of time arguing how the patient got into the hospital. That has been interesting, but I would like to see some discussion about his chances for getting the transplant he needs, whether he can survive without it, and whether getting it insures his survival.

I don't start threads lightly. If you don't like it, report it to the mods(who I think will agree with me), or just don't participate in it.


User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9110 times:



Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 11):
think you mean will Frontier be able to get DIP Financing?

That is why I said "get DIP" rather than "become a DIP".


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9091 times:



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 15):
I did not ask about any of the above.



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 15):
I don't start threads lightly. If you don't like it, report it to the mods(who I think will agree with me), or just don't participate in it.

Pardon me, but I was responding to Mariner's post, not yours...


User currently offlineBravo1six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 399 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9059 times:



Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 11):
So the fact that F9 was not able to line up DIP Financing is a red flag.

But also a function of the credit crisis in the US. Just because the DIP financing hasn't been lined up don't assume that it's entirely a result of the state of affairs of Frontier.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26150 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9045 times:

Well, knowing folks in the finance business I'm aware Frontier has been actively knocking on doors since about their second week in Ch11 in attempts to line up DIP financing.

I suppose one could make good arguments both for and against F9s ability to secure such financing, but personally baring a major disaster I think they will manage to line something up with either an outside lender, or from one or more of their current assets lenders like Airbus.

A more interesting, and critical item in my opinion is under what terms such financing is provided, and how that shapes or restricts the future of the airline.


For the hell of it, here are some major points that will play into any lenders decision.
-Future business plan viability. Currently F9 loosing $15-20mil a month is not something sustainable. I'm not sure Menke and company have yet been able to conceptualize a model that is workable in the long run. Current management focus is more the trauma doctor role, trying to stabilize the patient. They must eventually focus on the long term road.

-What can a DIP lender use to guarantee their investment? With Frontier continuing to burn the furniture in the form of aircraft sales, potential collateral equity is diminishing fast.

-Frontier position in the larger market place, and its brand. While well know to many on A.net and in the Denver region and adored by those, F9 in many ways has identity awareness problem particularly when it comes to NY financiers and Wall Street. Its far from a darling company to many such key folks. While a business decision, it greatly helps if the lenders have their hearts in it, and feel positively about the creditor.

-Other business factors involving the creditor, plus larger themes like overall global economy.
While cold, I've seen large lenders in the past basically put the trauma patient to sleep for good in order to play a chess game with their investments someplace else. For instance I've seen a large aircraft lender be willing to pull the rug out from underneath a carrier as they could very easily turn around and place the assets with someone else with lower risk and higher returns.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13750 posts, RR: 61
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8850 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
I think they will manage to line something up with either an outside lender, or from one or more of their current assets lenders like Airbus.

In the past, Airbus would have been a good candidate, especially since they'd obviously want to help a good customer if they can.

However, considering that many of their customers - and Boeing's as well - are deferring or considering cancelling orders outright, odds are they won't be as likely to prop up a failing customer as they would have a year or two ago.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7136 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
we need to figure out whether it was SWA starting/expanding DEN service,

Obviously, obliterating Wright and not forcing WN to DFW to compete on a fair playing field permitted WN to move into DEN and change the whole tectonic action in the region. This tectonic change will result in the airport moving closer to downtown. That Frontier did not buy fuel hedges..........................



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineAK From United States of America, joined May 2006, 60 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6400 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 21):
Obviously, obliterating Wright and not forcing WN to DFW to compete on a fair playing field permitted WN to move into DEN and change the whole tectonic action in the region. This tectonic change will result in the airport moving closer to downtown. That Frontier did not buy fuel hedges..........................

Spree34, you obviously missed the point of his comment.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
(and for the sarcasm-impaired, that's already been hashed and re-hashed on the existing threads...)


[Edited 2008-07-06 09:53:09]


" I am serious...and don't call me Shirley!
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5122 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6207 times:

The question now is, can F9 get DIP? Yes. There are still plenty of investors that would be willing to invest into F9. The next question of course would be, is it worth investing? You better believe it. The airline, the product, and the customer base is enough in itself. F9 would be a heck of an investment, especially knowing that the price of fuel will eventually crash.

Before I get into the questions of "what makes you think fuel will crash", feel free to google.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineOOer From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1507 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

Everyone seems to have Mesa for starting Hawaii ops and undercutting Aloha to the point of them shutting down their operation, yet people aren't nearly as upset with WN undercutting F9 in DEN to the point where they are in Ch. 11 and might cease operations soon....why is that???

25 LAXintl : I'd like to know what in F9, the product and its customer base as you refer to that is worth investing(risking) hundreds of millions potentially in?
26 RedFlyer : I don't think anyone, even the biggest pessimist, doubts the price of oil will come down dramatically. The key issue is WHEN? Obviously, if it happen
27 Ytib : Comparing two different items here. When Mesa stepped into Hawaii they did so with information not readily available. This was shown during the lawsu
28 EA CO AS : Oh gosh, I don't know - maybe because no one has ever intercepted an e-mail from WN executives saying they should "give F9 the final push" into liqui
29 Eghansen : OK. Here is the lowdown for those of you who don't actually know why F9 went into bankruptcy and what their options are. Normally, when you charge an
30 RedFlyer : [emphasis added] My personal opinion is that F9 was not forced to do anything, but was looking for an excuse to file BK. The credit card processor wa
31 LAXintl : 50/50 is far from the norm. Many airlines still have zero hold backs, and gain the full revenue at time of booking. This has been a question asked at
32 SPREE34 : Ugh, no. Somebody missed something, but it wasn't OPNL or myself.
33 Enilria : They don't have to get DIP, but if they can't get DIP they will have an even harder time getting exit financing. In essence the inability to easily g
34 Drgmobile : While this already is being discussed in another forum, it is worth noting that in its most recent 10K filing with the SEC, the carrier disclosed it i
35 Post contains links MasseyBrown : If the court approves (and bankruptcy courts usually do approve) Frontier can probably get DIP financing. The court will generally approve it unless r
36 Rbgso : Removing all emotion from this situation, the main questions are: 1) What unencumbered assets does F9 have that could be used to secure financing? 2)
37 Drgmobile : DIP financing isn't essential to a successful Chap 11 discharge. IIRC, Hawaiian never used a DIP loan - of course their recent bankruptcy was more lik
38 Eghansen : I suspect that you are right. Many people who write about airline bankruptcy seem to believe that filing for bankruptcy means that he airline (or any
39 Drgmobile : The reason you file for bankruptcy if you have plenty of cash is to keep the creditors hands off your cash. The number one reason for filing for bankr
40 MasseyBrown : Right, I mentioned HA only to illustrate that obtaining DIP financing doesn't have to be an essential part of Chap 11. F9 probably didn't need DIP lo
41 Drgmobile : F9 probably didn't need DIP loans when they declared either, although their circumstances may be different by now. Initially yes, but they said off t
42 Enilria : They have repeatedly said they need DIP financing. When they asked employees for wage concessions recently, they specifically stated that it was a nec
43 MasseyBrown : Has Frontier's most recent monthly statement (for May filed on June 30th?) been discussed in another thread? I don't want to replow the ground; but t
44 Post contains links LAXintl : Yes. Long discussions http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4048853/
45 Rampart : ... Way to remove all emotion, Rbgso. You didn't get any answers to your questions, but it looks like you aren't really asking since you have a concl
46 Avek00 : With all due respect, I think you're somewhat uncealr as to how large corporate bankruptcies work. With very few exceptions, a BK filing by a large c
47 Mariner : I'm sure you have more information than I, but it was my understanding that the seven aircraft leaving the fleet are leased aircraft, in which there
48 XJETFlyer : Frontier is in bad shape at the wrong time. Not many if any will be investing in a sinking airline with fuel prices where they are. I see Frontier nos
49 LAXintl : Hi Mariner, Well if some one can come up with the 7 tail numbers involved that would be easy to figure out, however from my understanding is that Fro
50 Mariner : Interesting, thanks. I had understood the arrangement was with the lessors. CFO Tate always called them the piggy bank. mariner
51 LAXintl : which they are indeed. Only question really is how much value can they unlock in each between the aircraft original finance price, current market res
52 Mariner : I would guess the Creditors Committee is fully aware of this. mariner
53 RedFlyer : Hi Avek00, I don't disagree with anything you've said above and I think what you describe is precisely what happened. My only "bone" is with the way
54 MasseyBrown : Now that I've read the thread that LAXintl suggested, I see what the comments mean about repeating the same stuff over and over. On the whole, I think
55 Avek00 : Frontier management might well be right that the First Data holdback was the near-term event that triggered the BK filing. Menke may be equally corre
56 N7371f : To respond to whether F9 is ridding itself of owned or leased A318/319's... I believe it involves selling aircraft. I'm basing this off the most recen
57 Enilria : First, new business. The June numbers are out and they are VERY bad. RASM was up a meager 2%, but haul fell 2.8%. Basically a shorter haul automatical
58 Mariner : Duh. mariner
59 LAXintl : By the way, somewhat related F9 is awaiting court approval to execute an agreement which would net it approximately $7.5mil in pre delivery payment re
60 Post contains links Mariner : I think one of the greatest problems Frontier faces is external. Mike Boyd has an interesting take on it (as always) when discussing why LCC's are no
61 FlyPNS1 : Maybe, but the relentless negativity isn't without basis. With fuel prices where they are, it's hard to be positive about any airline. And as the Jun
62 N7371f : Great point! And while I tend to agree from reading the two Denver dailies - it's hard to have a lot of sympathy. I think Frontier's own P.R. work is
63 RedFlyer : If you don't define your own image, someone else will do it for you.
64 Cloudy : Its interesting that a travel agent comments on this. Traditional ravel agencies are not exactly a growth industry, and have been in decline long bef
65 MaverickM11 : It seems like DEN is not nearly as loyal to F9 as people think it is. They like F9, but it's nowhere near the koolaid followers of YX/B6/AS. I never
66 Rampart : Colorado native here, I try to keep up on things. I've noticed that in Denver, and Colorado in general, if you aren't a sports team that plays on gra
67 Mariner : Somewhat I dispute that. I first posted about this more than two years ago on another board (now gone). That board - and my post - were read by a Den
68 Enilria : Today in court news: - Austin filed a lien against Frontier assets. No amount specified. - The Airbus reimbursement of $7.5 million in PDPs was approv
69 Post contains links Mariner : I have no idea what anyone else thinks or knows, and, generally, I don't assume knowledge or igornace on the part of others, until they show otherwis
70 AirFrnt : Yep. I would further charge that there are a great number of people who are invested in F9's failure, and continue to ride that train. Lord help us a
71 Enilria : While I agree with that, I don't get the impression they used him at all in the political arena. I almost wonder if he used his political connections
72 Mariner : Whatever impression you have, I don't share it. As I recall, Mayor Hickenlooper's first official flight, as mayor on a Denver junket, was with Fronti
73 Enilria : Oh well, it seemed like we were in sync there for a minute. So you believe Hudson was dealing with DIA directly using his political prowess? Then wha
74 Mariner : It is one of those things that is almost impossible to know. Even if all the players published their accurate memory of it, there are always - as sho
75 FlyPNS1 : This hatchet job did almost no damage to Frontier. While it got a lot of attention on this board, the general public barely noticed. Many on this boa
76 Enilria : It is my impression that the relationship with the airport was run exclusively by Frontier's legal department and that is never the way to build a re
77 Drgmobile : As much as you might think of airports as a business, they really aren't. The airlines pay for everything regardless of whether there are 50 flights o
78 FlyPNS1 : The job of the airport is to provide an efficient way for people (and cargo) to move in and out of the city. Running an efficient and competitive air
79 Mattnrsa : I agree that lately the newspapers have not been reporting much positive news on Frontier, but this is a relatively recent development. The newspaper
80 AirFrnt : My mother called me after that report, and asked if it was still safe to fly F9. That leaves a mark. That's only 50 more flights a day then what is c
81 N839MH : I know as of June 25th, Delta discontinued their ticketing and baggage agreements with Frontier...does anyone know if other airlines have done the sam
82 KingCavalier : You are assuming that it was Delta's decision and not Frontier's. This probably has more to do with the computers not working together. Very soon, al
83 Enilria : You forgot parking, but all those items are tied to how many passengers the airlines move through the airport. The airlines don't explicitly pay *all
84 Petteri : I think the Delta agreement was canceled by Delta. I've heard that they (Delta) are going to be going through a round of agreement cancellations befor
85 Enilria : A lot of the majors have timelines on interline e-ticketing capability enhancements and if they aren't met the other carrier is automatically dropped
86 Rampart : Anecdotal, of course, but my contacts in Colorado, all non-aviation people, mentioned concern about this development. In fact... Mine did, too! Guess
87 Enilria : The behavior of Denver and DIA makes more logical sense if you presume they were stupid enough to think WN would open COS. So in their minds they los
88 Rampart : That seems plausible to me. Except at first it wasn't "stupid enough", it was actually a real option and everyone at the time was wondering why the h
89 FlyPNS1 : I haven't met an airport director yet that spends much time worrying about economic development. Most airport directors worry about keeping airlines,
90 Rampart : Explain? Large number of destinations between F9 or WN, usually frequent enough dometic service. Price control to make it more affordable. What's mis
91 Post contains links Enilria : I think you have to look a little deeper. An extremely typical situation is the state or city is trying to lure, for example, a Japanese company to p
92 Enilria : As I said in my post. Ask Fortune 500 travel managers whether they would rather have their HQ in a city with a UA/LCC (WN or F9) hub or a WN/F9 hub a
93 Rampart : OK, understood. Not my universe. I used to see plenty of business fliers on WN (I was with 'em), but probably not the types that needed clubs and FC.
94 Enilria : Southwest certainly gets business travelers as does Frontier, but it's kind of a different breed. It has to do with the culture of the company (Morga
95 EA CO AS : It has to do with DL not wanting to be left holding potentially worthless conjunctive tickets issued on F9's 422 ticket stock. Apparently they're not
96 Enilria : Maybe. These arrangements settle through ARC which has already been reaffirmed by the court. Second, money held for future flights is basically in es
97 Petteri : As far as I know B6 doesn't interline with anyone (besides the new LH and EI agreements). AA and F9 haven't had an interline agreement for quite some
98 AirFrnt : You misunderstand why WN is in DEN in the first place. Short haul is more profitable then long haul. Virtually everything is short haul from DEN, whi
99 AirFrnt : Incorrent. F9 has not had interline agreements with them for a very long time. Delta is also canceling theirs across the board as well.
100 DLflynhayn : Im one!
101 EA CO AS : By your comment I can only assume you're referring to the agreement (or lack thereof) with AA, and I'll certainly stand corrected on that. DL's cance
102 FlyPNS1 : If you want to play as a major international business city, you want to have a major legacy carrier. WN and F9 are great for the short-haul business
103 Acjflyer : What flexibility does Frontier have in terms of gate leases at DEN? If necessary are they able to cut back on some gates in order to save money?
104 ScottB : Being in bankruptcy gives them a lot of flexibility with respect to their leases; they can choose to accept or reject leases on gates if they choose.
105 Mariner : That may - stress "may" - be true for United, but again, that isn't my impression that it is so for Frontier. I am told by people at DIA (on the DIA
106 Enilria : I don't misunderstand, just disagree. Anyway, one could argue that Southwest should do best in long-haul because its fuel hedges provide them the lar
107 AirFrnt : The policy changed with the new mayor. That policy was in the growth plan, which has been thrown out and is restarting. One could argue, but they wou
108 AirFrnt : Apropos to my earlier point - British Airways did in fact beat UA off of a DEN to LHR route, when they don't even have a hub in Denver. Not a good si
109 USFlyer MSP : Umm, but BA has a huge hub at LHR which UA doesn't plus most EU-US passengers are EU-originating and accordingly prefer BA over UA.
110 Post contains links Mariner : I posted this in another thread, but in an effort to drag this thread back on topic, I may as well post it here: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/new.
111 Enilria : You and Kelly can say that, but it is a mathematical fact that fuel hedges give you the most cost advantage in markets where the most fuel is burned.
112 GentFromAlaska : Ironically I continue to notice WN offers bargain basement fare specials out of DEN in their weekly internet newsletter? In recent history I don't re
113 Enilria : New Topic As you probably read on another thread, Frontier secured a new CCP deal which temporarily allows them to go to a 0% holdback by giving First
114 AirFrnt : Not surprising. FDC took a beating all around, even from the Denver media, and the national news for the stunt they pulled. I'm right, and the CEO of
115 Enilria : First, news of the moment... This is from Reuters, I presume it is wrong since it would mean the $7.5 million will not go to increase their cash reser
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