BOACVC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 536 posts, RR: 0 Posted (5 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 18988 times:
I was surprised to read about AA1901, and would like to know what actually happened. The story is published here, on the CBS website
Quote: Angry Passengers, Agitated Crew Face Off
Fight Over A Late Flight Ends In A 24-Hour Delay For New York-Bound Passengers
(CBS) A plane-load of passengers was delayed 24 hours when the crew for a flight from Miami to New York arrived late. The crew balked at flying after passengers became angry and belligerent. Passengers say the pilot and crew over-reacted.
It all started Sunday night when passengers say the flight crew showed up over an hour late for American Airlines flight 1901, reports CBS News correspondent Joel Brown on The Early Show. The passengers were upset and they let the crew know it.
EWRCabincrew From United States of America, joined May 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 57 Reply 3, posted (5 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 18778 times:
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 1): Being that the crew was already upset that they were also late, they did not need the booing!
They were upset? I didn't get that from the article. Was it crew legalities that the crew was late, that happens a lot?
As for the booing, it was, afterall, a MIA-JFK flight. Not that that should be an excuse, but still. You wouldn't get this reaction on, say, a MCI-DEN flight.
I've been booed before for being late, as well as the calls and snide comments. Sh** happens. It doesn't make it right, but it is part of the job (at least it is now - as sad at that is). The good, the bad and (definitely) the ugly.
Spacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3365 posts, RR: 13 Reply 4, posted (5 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 18728 times:
Quoting AAH732UAL (Reply 1): Good for the crew Smile They don't deserve crap like that.
Neither do the passengers, most of whom simply sat there and waited for an hour and fifteen minutes for a late flight crew, then were just trying to board the plane when the flight was canceled. My understanding is it was just a few passengers who confronted the flight crew. And those passengers should have simply been kicked off the flight if they were "hostile".
And how do you know the crew were "upset" that they were late? And why is that an excuse for being late?
Sure, there's two sides to everything, and it's possible they collectively had a good reason for being late... or it's possible that they were just late. Either way, it's not the passengers' fault, especially not those who were just patiently waiting.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
AA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2282 posts, RR: 24 Reply 6, posted (5 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 18653 times:
What most passengers don't know is that the Crew was late because of an inbound flight that they worked before this one. So, of course the people think that the Crew woke up late to get to work and started booing because in the passengers eyes the Crew was at fault.
They just finished working two legs that were also late, and then run to the other gate to be welcomed by hostile, agitated passengers. The Agents sometimes also don't play their part. They just tell the crowd that the flight is delayed due to the Crew being late. But neglect to state that they are late due to the flight that they are WORKING being late, which is not their fault.
Also, MIA-NYC is one of the hardest flights to work because of the clientele. This is why most NYC-Florida flights are VERY junior.
Gotta love how he keeps talking about it being a Florida to LGA flight then says "flight 1908 from MIA to JFK.
Also love how one of the guys they interviewed says it was perfectly understandable to start booing because the flight had been delayed by 1 hour 15 mins. Are you kidding? No one likes to be delayed but in the grand scheme of things 75 mins isn't really all that long especially considering that the majority of passengers were probably terminating at JFK.
EASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 411 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (5 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 18519 times:
I don't believe it...a one hour delay and the passengers(some) were irate. Were do they think the crew was coming from ...dinner? When I worked in Washington and Fort Lauderdale we were on first name basis with the police, because we had to call them so many times for the New York flights.....good for the crew and the fact the front crew stood up for the f/a's.....cancel the flight and give them bus tickets.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1211 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (5 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 18513 times:
Quoting OA412 (Reply 8): NYC-Florida flights that makes them so difficult/unpopular for crews to work?
The NYC-based passengers.
When I was a gate agent at UAX many many years ago, the biggest pain in the arse when it came to delays going into ORD were passengers destined for LGA and EWR; 7 times out of 10. If I saw those on the outbound connections list, passengers for those cities were usually the worst to work with, were the most condescending, and were the biggest PITA.
The one that said he would strangle me because of a delayed flight (level 6 thunderstorms on top of ORD) was bound for EWR. He also promised that he would never fly us (UAX) again.
I saw him the next week for another Notre Dame home game; they lost, and his flight was again a misconnect for him to get to EWR.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1211 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 18153 times:
When it comes to safety, AA management will always fall on the side of the crew.
Crew did what they had to do for safety. Like I said, just because you have a ticket, doesnt give you the right to be belligerent to a working crew. It is a felony to ignore directions given by a working flight crewmember, and that will cause an inflight diversion, and someone to become a guest of the federal government for a while.
It has nothing about being a "prima dona" (sic) crew. It probably has nothing to do with frustrations about having a s**t job (but without reading their trip report, I cant say for sure). Without a Federal Air Marshal on board, or a federal flight deck officer (FFDO) on board, I sure as hell wont operate the flight. Who knows if the gate area issues will lead to bigger issues on board; who can say that someone wont just let their attitude fester and once airborne, to be a bigger pain in the ass once airborne.
You think that AA sucks, your opinion, your decision. I agree with the crew, and as a certificated airman that shares operational control responsibility, if I had this same issue arise on a flight I was responsible for, I would back the crew's refusal.
Lijnden From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 557 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 18041 times:
Shows again how screwed up the airline industry in the US is. I once missed my connection ORD > SEA and SEA > Kelowna, BC because the crew of the leg ORF > ORD (United) were about 2 hours late for the 6:45 am flight. No reason was given. I am not paying for these mis-arranged crew schedules that are giving me unwanted delays at busy airports, changing tickets around and have me at my destination 5 hours later than I planned. I am also never paying the famous $ 99,00 round trip fares but around $ 1600,00 only for the flights between ORF > Kelowna, BC > ORF in economy without any form of service. So yes, I expect any flight crew to be on time for a flight, else they should maybe consider flying cargo instead.
As mentioned before
NO CREW = NO FLIGHT (true)
I want to add
NO PASSENGERS = NO FLIGHT (or JOB)
Heavierthanair From Switzerland, joined Oct 2000, 690 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 18008 times:
I get the impression AA does not longer like where their $$$$ come from and who finances their very existence. I remember they used to announce "we know you have a choice", that seems to be history though. How about giving up that self loading cargo business and go for a cargo only operation. Flowers, fruit, vegetable and the like do not usually complain, and no Hotel accommodation is required if the crew shows up late, the plane breaks down or both. No worries about checked baggage going to another airport either.
Just a thought that likely applies to quite a number of other airlines! Not only US airlines for that matter.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21310 posts, RR: 60 Reply 17, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 17994 times:
Quoting Spacecadet (Reply 4): And those passengers should have simply been kicked off the flight if they were "hostile".
If it was just a few, the flight crew over-reacted. They should have called for security, let security pull them aside and talk to them, boarded the rest of the flight, and then if security was able to calm them down and the flight crew felt they were fit to board, board the angry few last. Otherwise, leave them behind.
My guess though is that AA did not tell the people waiting WHY the crew was late. My experience with AA is they do not properly communicate with passengers. Not as bad as DL is sometimes on that front, but still, to me it seems at AA that the ground staff doesn't think the passengers need to know the why of the situation. This is the end result of that approach...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
AA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2282 posts, RR: 24 Reply 18, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 17998 times:
Quoting Lijnden (Reply 20): So yes, I expect any flight crew to be on time for a flight, else they should maybe consider flying cargo instead.
Again, the Crew did not show up late because they rolled out of bed late. They were late because the AIRLINE schedules Crews on tight connections with multiple legs in one day. Is it your fault? Of course not. But it is not the Crew's either. So direct your frustrations at the airline, not the underpaid front line employees.
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1211 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (5 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 17979 times:
Well, if a crew was going to be late for an originating morning flight, it sounds like they were REQUIRED BY LAW to be late, its called Federal Aviation Regulation 121.471; sounds like they were late for crew rest issues. Norfolk isnt a regular crew domicile for any UAX carrier, so recrewing the flight might not have been possible.
Do you want a crew to fly illegally? Yes, you were inconvenienced, however, would you rather become a charcoal briquet on the ground for the crew flying illegally, and by mistake fly your
plane into the dirt due to gross fatigue?
Charcoal briquet or alive, albeit a little late; your decision.
Hey, as an ops controller, I would love for all of my flights to operate 100% on time, all the time. However, sometimes that isnt possible.
An Airline ticket is a contract. In the fine print, it says "Airline Schedules are NOT guaranteed and form no part of this contract."
Nkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2590 posts, RR: 6 Reply 20, posted (5 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 17931 times:
Quoting Lijnden (Reply 20): So yes, I expect any flight crew to be on time for a flight, else they should maybe consider flying cargo instead.
I agree with you, as long as it is in the flight crews control... however, if the crew is late because they had a 2-hour groundstop flying inbound or something out of their control that put them behind sked, it is either crew schedulings responsibility to hunt down another crew, or the flight goes late.... if it's not the crews fault, don't take it out on them, they are just following their schedule
44k From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 309 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (5 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 17844 times:
On one hand I feel it was a good call for them to cancel the flight. On the other, I feel really bad for the gate agents who look like took the brunt of the abuse over something completely out of their control... It's a shame people are so uncivilized...
Dispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1211 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (5 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 17793 times:
Quoting 44k (Reply 21): On the other, I feel really bad for the gate agents who look like took the burnt of the abuse over something completely out of their control... It's a shame people are so uncivilized... Sad
I agree - remember after 9/11 and that the agents and aircrew were treated very well by the passengers.
Oh how they have forgotten. They probably didnt originally have the delay coded as a misconnecting flight crew (if they were misconnecting). If they pulled someone from reserve, well, he has a contractual right to be able to get to work without breaking every speed law in the book just to get there.
EMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 640 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (5 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 17768 times:
Without having been present, it sounds as though everyone has some sort of blame here.
The crew got scared and defensive when the passengers heckled them at the gate.
The passengers became irate when the gate agents told them the crews were late.
If the buck stops anywhere, it should be either with AA's scheduling (probably overscheduled the crew, and should have had a reserve crew ready), or AA's gate agents who may have led the passengers to believe that the flight crew was late just because the crew overslept/was out having fun/was having sex in the bushes behind the hotel (sorry, couldn't resist).
Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
AY104 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 505 posts, RR: 7 Reply 24, posted (5 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 17756 times:
Just another example of how ridiculous our society has become. I am not sure why the crew was late, but obviously it was something beyond their control. A 75 min. delay is nothing...if I was a passenger on that flight, I would be glad to see the crew and happier still because they had work time left that day to operate the flight. They obviously felt threatened and intimidated by the behaviour of the passengers, so they were well within their rights to refuse to fly. It would be one thing to be booed at the end of a flight, when everyone was deplaning, but to be subject to that kind of behaviour even before boarding is downright rude. They definitely don't get paid enough to be cooped up for hours with a group like that.
What is society coming to? People are that upset because of a one hour and fifteen minute delay?! Just the fact that they would be upset at all, let alone exhibit that type of behaviour, is totally beyond my comprehension.
Unfortunately, I don't think that most people will take this as a positive lesson to be learned, with the way society is today I feel that things are only going to get worse. The sad part is, that each and every person who participated in that ugly scene, is responsible for the 24 hour delay, and yet none will every admit it.
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
25 KAUSpilot: I wasn't there but I have a hunch at who is at fault here: GATE AGENTS. I suspect they did not adequately explain the crew's reason for being delayed,
26 Crewchief: Although the gate agents may have handled the situation better (or not, I don't know the details), the responsibility for the passenger's boorish beh
27 IAirAllie: hmmmm... "Gimme a coffee regular, an orange juice and a coke the whole can" with no thank you or eye contact in a belligerent tone. repeat 200 times.
28 AirNZ: Yep, real mature comment there......and even more so considering you know absolutely nothing about the incident. Mind you, at 16-20 I'd be curious to
29 AAH732UAL: You wanna play that game? Fine...... No I don't know about the accident but know that flights crews also hate to be late just as much as passengers.
30 AAH732UAL: Sometimes as much as twice a month since she has been in DCA.
31 EWRCabincrew: As crew, not so much, as it was not our doing to be late. As crew you roll with it. It is an inherent part of the job. You can't get worked up over s
32 IAirAllie: Meh, No point in getting upset over a delay. Yeah, some delays cut your layovers short but it's nothing worth fretting over.
33 44k: I take great offense to your posting for several reasons. Firstly, you were not there, how can you blame the gate agents there?! Did you watch the vi
34 FLFlyGuy: The crew in question was late inbound on a Port au Prince, Haiti turn (where, I am sure, they dealt with plenty of angry people regarding misconnects,
35 Brilondon: The flight crew was probably coming from another flight and it was more then likely late. Passengers seem to think that they entitled to let people h
36 44k: Yep, and the flight crew are very trigger happy for booting pax off the plane too. See, the main difference is, if a pax is baligerant to the Agents,
37 Jumbojet: that this was AA doesnt surprise me at all. AA seems to continually treat there customers like crap. A family member recently TRIED to take an AA fli
38 Fsnuffer: It is all in the attitude. The gate agents are just the customer facing portion and have almost no control over flights being late or delayed. I was o