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Allegiant To Fly Las Vegas To Appleton, WI  
User currently offlineRW717 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 289 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6825 times:

Begining August 21st, Allegiant Air will fly twice weekly service between Appleton, WI and Las Vegas. The flights will be on Thursdays and Sundays, departing LAS at 8:50 am and arriving ATW at 2:25pm. The return flight will depart ATW at 3:05pm and arrive LAS at 4:55pm.


Welcome to the Allegiant network Appleton!!


Reno Air - The Biggest Little Airline in the World
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRW717 From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

After reading the press release further they are moving the operations from Green Bay to Appleton. Good news for Appleton, bad news for Green Bay.


Reno Air - The Biggest Little Airline in the World
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4279 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

Wow, didn't see this one coming. I love this, now I can fly nonstop from ATW to GRB and park free. And since they are CASS, its so easy for me. It will be nice to see the Mad Dogs on a regular basis.

User currently offlineG4resagent From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6737 times:

Here is a link to the press release...

http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews/aaNews20080708a.php


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6728 times:

Seems like Green Bay raised their costs so Allegiant responded by moving the flights.

Spokesperson Tyri Squyres said the airline made the decision after Austin Straubel raised its prices for using the airport.

“We’ve been flying out of Green Bay for a number of years, very successfully, however, we were a little surprised when the cost structure of flying out of there changed, and it was no longer cost-effective,” Squyres said. “We were faced with leaving the market. We approached Appleton, and they worked really hard with us to develop a cost structure that would support our low-cost fares.”

http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbc...ID=/20080708/APC0101/80708095/1979



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6385 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6728 times:



Quoting RW717 (Reply 1):
After reading the press release further they are moving the operations from Green Bay to Appleton. Good news for Appleton, bad news for Green Bay.

Puts 'em more in the middle of the Fox River Valley, although I think if us aviation nuts had our way, they'd be servicing OSH instead  cool 



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMKENut From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6685 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 4):
Seems like Green Bay raised their costs so Allegiant responded by moving the flights.

GRB officials better watch out.... ATW will replace them as the third busiest airport in Wisconsin.  Smile


User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6664 times:

This may also be a way of Allegiant tapping into a slightly newer market without losing all of the old market. Las Vegas is a great place to visit but after awhile, the draw is not what it once was. Could it be that Allegiant is starting to see some markets where passengers are starting to get tired of Las Vegas? When you look at populations of 100K or so and Allegiant boarding about 10K a year on 2 flights a week, it doesn't take long before you rely almost entirely on repeat customers and even repeat customers start to dream about other destinations. I've started to notice more markets where they used to bump it up to 3 or 4 flights where now it is only 2 or 3. If this is true, it could start to be a problem for Allegiant especially since the last 3 markets they announced are all quite a bit smaller than most of their other LAS markets.

User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6646 times:

Allegiant is usually pretty up front about their reasons for changes. One of the most honest I've seen.

In this case they said GRB raised costs making GRB-LAS unprofitable. So I believe costs at GRB were a big reason.

Also in terms of frequencies, well every airline is trimming frequency this year. I don't see it as a problem that Allegiant is having with people being tired of LAS. Instead I think it is just the drop in passengers that all airlines are adjusting to.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineCIDflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2301 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6622 times:

wow this is surprising. Boy the bad news just keeps coming to GRB, couple years back they lost DFW, then DL just pulled the ATL route this year, CO is leaving and now G4.

User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6596 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 8):
Also in terms of frequencies, well every airline is trimming frequency this year. I don't see it as a problem that Allegiant is having with people being tired of LAS. Instead I think it is just the drop in passengers that all airlines are adjusting to.

The potential problem that I see is the new market size is getting smaller and the frequencies at some of the existing markets are being reduced. This could mean they are starting to tap out the size of markets that they have always been comfortable with before and now moving frequencies to even smaller markets. That is a bit concerning. 2 flight a week markets don't have any cushion to speak of in slower periods. Perhaps it will work for them but in my eyes it seems to be at least be a slight change in their business plan.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5804 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6582 times:

Not really a change in the business plan.

If you go back to the prospectus or the old management presentations in the last few years they always saw 100 small cities in the US and Canada as potentials. So that means to me that the smaller markets were originally planned for.

[Edited 2008-07-08 15:27:51]


"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6561 times:

Perhaps. We'll certainly find out in the next several months since Allegiant isn't one to wait long if it doesn't work.

User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6545 times:

Interesting that G4 would leave one area airport for another, and publicly state why. That sparks a little hope for me.

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6398 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 13):


Interesting that G4 would leave one area airport for another, and publicly state why. That sparks a little hope for me.

I'll take honesty over the usual political double-speak we often get such as: "We're dropping these 15 flights to reduce congestion at LGA..."

If more airlines/businesses were brutally honest, not to mention government...nah, I'm dreaming.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineStlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6391 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 7):

in some aspects, you may be right, but i personally don't think it will be all that drastic of a "bore-out." i grew up in a part of the country where lots of people typically went out that direction once a year so for vacation, if not some type of conference and convention.

las vegas strip packages aren't the only reason people head to vegas.

conference & convention business continues to grow.
national sporting events being held in Las Vegas
large number of golf/spa/tennis resorts
draw to other attractions -- such as driving up to Reno or over to the Grand Canyon



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6314 times:



Quoting Stlgph (Reply 15):
las vegas strip packages aren't the only reason people head to vegas.

conference & convention business continues to grow.
national sporting events being held in Las Vegas
large number of golf/spa/tennis resorts
draw to other attractions -- such as driving up to Reno or over to the Grand Canyon

I agree in general there is quite a bit of draw to LAS, but while some of these work for 2 flight a week, some don't. Conventions, particularly, can be difficult if your two flights a week don't mesh well. That is why I am beginning to question some of their recent moves like flying into both GFK and FAR on the same two days a week. 4 days a week out of either one of those cities would give more coverage through the week for people to use Allegiant for things like conventions. Leaving Green Bay to go to Appleton probably makes sense cost wise but something is different about how they are making some of their other decisions and I can't quite get my arms around why.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6301 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 16):

i share some of your sentiments. it's funny though, while a lot of airfares are increasing across the board, i've been pricing out some trips to Las Vegas in the future ... they're actually coming out less than what i had priced them out for last year. hotels in Las Vegas seem to be cutting rates to get people to come on out and have a good time. and nowadays, i'm finding if you attend a convention ... stay at a convention rate for say 3-nights, you can tack on additional nights at a "special price" -- hoping to get those convention goers to stay out for a little fun and leisure on their own time. works out good for Allegiant's intermittent schedules, i'm sure.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6299 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 16):
I agree in general there is quite a bit of draw to LAS, but while some of these work for 2 flight a week, some don't. Conventions, particularly, can be difficult if your two flights a week don't mesh well. That is why I am beginning to question some of their recent moves like flying into both GFK and FAR on the same two days a week. 4 days a week out of either one of those cities would give more coverage through the week for people to use Allegiant for things like conventions. Leaving Green Bay to go to Appleton probably makes sense cost wise but something is different about how they are making some of their other decisions and I can't quite get my arms around why.

Haven't they always entered markets with 2 flights per week? It seems like a good way to test a market without too much risk or overhead. Allegiant seems to know what they're doing, and thats an understatement.


User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6284 times:



Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 18):
Haven't they always entered markets with 2 flights per week? It seems like a good way to test a market without too much risk or overhead. Allegiant seems to know what they're doing, and thats an understatement.

Yes, they have. However, two things have changed.

1. They announced GFK which is only 80 miles from another Allegiant city (FAR). They already get many of the GFK passengers at FAR. Both are 2 day a week operations and both are on Friday and Monday. Why would they not add 2 flights to FAR instead of GFK or at least stagger the days of the week between the two cities? Perhaps we just don't know the reasons.... maybe they are testing GFK to see if they should leave FAR like they did GRB.

2. The new cities they have announced service to, GFK and CPR (I won't include Appleton since it is really just the same market with a different airport) are both smaller than the average new city they have added over the years. This means there is more risk that 2 flights may be too much in the slower periods than there was with larger cities.

Maybe these aren't big issues but it could indicate that the low hanging fruit is taken and they are now having to dig a bit further into the tree than they used to and that does not come without some risk. Is it a big risk or a small risk? I don't know but it a different risk than before. And in this industry, it is when things change dramatically (like oil prices) when we really find out if someone knows what they are doing. Like I said before, we will see in the next several months to a year from now whether these concerns are valid or not.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9367 posts, RR: 26
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6237 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 19):

Redmond, Oregon seems to be doing well. it's population is smaller than Casper, too.

Grand Forks does have a population of 97-some-odd-thousand, which is larger than a few other cities in the Allegiant system ... Redmond, Medford, Casper, Rapid City, Grand Junction, Duluth, etc. etc.

Roughly the same as Bismarck.



if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
User currently offlineCa2ohhp From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6216 times:



Quoting CIDflyer (Reply 9):
wow this is surprising. Boy the bad news just keeps coming to GRB, couple years back they lost DFW, then DL just pulled the ATL route this year, CO is leaving and now G4.

GRB is heading down the same road as OSH did 20 years ago.


User currently offlineKcrwFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3817 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6192 times:



Quoting Stapleton (Reply 19):
1. They announced GFK which is only 80 miles from another Allegiant city (FAR). They already get many of the GFK passengers at FAR. Both are 2 day a week operations and both are on Friday and Monday. Why would they not add 2 flights to FAR instead of GFK or at least stagger the days of the week between the two cities? Perhaps we just don't know the reasons.... maybe they are testing GFK to see if they should leave FAR like they did GRB.

Despite their proximity, those are still two seperate markets. Adding GFK opens them up to another area of people to the North that wouldnt make the drive all the way to FAR. It may not be a large area, but enough to support the 2 flights.

Its also possible that there is a reasonable percentage of people that life in GFK that wouldnt drive to FAR to catch a flight. I know people here that wont drive to HTS and thats only an hour.

Quoting Stapleton (Reply 19):
Maybe these aren't big issues but it could indicate that the low hanging fruit is taken and they are now having to dig a bit further into the tree than they used to and that does not come without some risk. Is it a big risk or a small risk?

Allegiant wont allow anything they do to be much of a risk. If advance sales dont do well, they'll pull out before ever starting.


User currently offlineStapleton From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 280 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6160 times:



Quoting STLGph (Reply 20):
Redmond, Oregon seems to be doing well. it's population is smaller than Casper, too.

Grand Forks does have a population of 97-some-odd-thousand, which is larger than a few other cities in the Allegiant system ... Redmond, Medford, Casper, Rapid City, Grand Junction, Duluth, etc. etc.

Roughly the same as Bismarck.

Actually, Casper was part of the point that they are a small market (66,533 in Natrona County) but of the markets listed, only Rapid City (Pennington County - 88,565) is smaller but it is no where close to another Allegiant market. Here is a breakdown of the counties listed (All of them have additional population in adjacent counties but to keep it simple, just the main county is listed except for GFK where Polk County, MN is just across the river):
Redmond (Deschutes County - 115,357)
Medford (Jackson County - 197,071)
Grand Junction (Mesa County - 116,255)
Duluth (St. Louis County - 200,528)
Rapid City (Pennington County - 88,565)
GFK (Grand Forks County, ND and Polk County, MN combined - 97,478)
Casper (Natrona County - 66,533)

Some that are smaller that were missed are:
Missoula (Missoula County - 95,802)
Great Falls (Cascade County - 80,357)
Idaho Falls (Bonneville County - 91,856)

But again, IDA, MSO and GTF are a 3 hour drive or more from another Allegiant market rather than just over an hour between GFK and FAR. When you add in the BIL, COS, PSC, FAT, CID, FSD, ICT, DSM, etc. etc. markets, the fact is GFK and CPR are among the smallest population bases Allegiant serves.


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