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EU Forbids Flights For Free Unless It Is Free  
User currently offlineShany From Germany, joined Jul 2008, 113 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 11568 times:

The EU parliament decided today, that airlines that have their legal home in the EU have to make clear the full price from the very beginning on. This will be also necessary for internet websites and any other way of advertisement/booking. The full price will have to include all known additional costs such as fees, taxes and surcharges. On german newpage "tagesschau" they also claim that it will be not legal to have some items "preselected" on webpages hoping the customer does not realize it.

Also on "tagesschau" they say, that it will only take a few month from now, until this new law will become valid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worl...lude-taxes-fees-extra-charges.html

(only in german)

http://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/lockangebote100.html


ETOPS - Engines Turn Or People Swim
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12333 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11407 times:

How will this work with search engines like Expida/Travelocity/etc?

Will they have to use the "complete" price on a BA JFK-LHR but be able to display the "incomplete" price for AA JFK-LHR (for example)?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11392 times:



Quoting Shany (Thread starter):
The EU parliament decided today, that airlines that have their legal home in the EU have to make clear the full price from the very beginning on.

Bravo. This is only fair.

I wish they'd do the same thing in the USA. Though most carriers are honest about it and show you the full fare including all taxes (except certain facility charges dependent on route), a few are shady about it. DL and CO are really upfront, B6 and FL show you right after you pick which flight, but VX won't show you any of the taxes until you are ready to pay, after you give your personal information, no way to find any details beforehand…  Angry



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 11371 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
Will they have to use the "complete" price on a BA JFK-LHR but be able to display the "incomplete" price for AA JFK-LHR (for example)?

No, they'll have to show the complete price for all flights they offer on the website.

Now, will AA.com EU/UK editions be required to as well? Not yet, but give the EU time to fix that if AA or others abuse the difference.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineWPIAeroGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11209 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 3):
No, they'll have to show the complete price for all flights they offer on the website.

I'm confused, so you're saying expedia will have to show the full price of every flight it sells, or the airlines will only have to show the full price on its own website?



-WPIAeroGuy
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11102 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
wish they'd do the same thing in the USA. Though most carriers are honest about it and show you the full fare including all taxes (except certain facility charges dependent on route), a few are shady about it. DL and CO are really upfront, B6 and FL show you right after you pick which flight, but VX won't show you any of the taxes until you are ready to pay,

Right, but in the USA it's only government taxes and fees that can be added on, as you say. They cannot simply add on their own surcharges (like fuel) for domestic US flights.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6714 posts, RR: 78
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10972 times:

Very good decision. It will finally stop airlines from fooling the customers. Just received a Germanwings newsletter today - once again they promote "0* Euro" flights (note the star...). In the end I searched for a flight for two, found one for 0* Euro, clicked on it and suddenly they wanted 86 Euro. Actually the same price as some days ago WITHOUT special promotion...  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineFlexo From St. Helena, joined Mar 2007, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10955 times:

Will that also include fees like the Ryanair credit card fee and the like?

User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17330 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10919 times:

How 'bout the airlines demand the EU show where all the taxes/fees end up? Yeah sure


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2213 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10923 times:



Quote:
I'm confused, so you're saying expedia will have to show the full price of every flight it sells, or the airlines will only have to show the full price on its own website?

I don't think that Expedia is an airline with a legal base in the EU. If Expedia is not an EU airline, it means they are not bound by EU laws. They can do whatever they want to.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19378 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10892 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
Very good decision. It will finally stop airlines from fooling the customers. Just received a Germanwings newsletter today - once again they promote "0* Euro" flights (note the star...). In the end I searched for a flight for two, found one for 0* Euro, clicked on it and suddenly they wanted 86 Euro. Actually the same price as some days ago WITHOUT special promotion...      

Good. False advertising is false advertising.

In my opinion, ALL airlines should be required to provide the TOTAL fare, including taxes and fees, to the travel websites. Optional fees, such as luggage charges, should then be indicated in clear text prior to the "accept" page.

It drives me crazy when I think I have a fare only to find out that the real fare is twice as much.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10859 times:



Quoting WPIAeroGuy (Reply 4):
I'm confused, so you're saying expedia will have to show the full price of every flight it sells, or the airlines will only have to show the full price on its own website?

Rereading it, it's not clear what they mean by "internet websites." Who's website?

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 6):
In the end I searched for a flight for two, found one for 0* Euro, clicked on it and suddenly they wanted 86 Euro. Actually the same price as some days ago WITHOUT special promotion...

How much of that price was made up of airline fees vs. government taxes/fees.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineChumley From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10857 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
How 'bout the airlines demand the EU show where all the taxes/fees end up? Yeah sure

 thumbsup 


User currently offlineShany From Germany, joined Jul 2008, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10749 times:



Quoting Revelation (Reply 1):
Will they have to use the "complete" price on a BA JFK-LHR but be able to display the "incomplete" price for AA JFK-LHR (for example)?

Interesting question which I haven't thought of, yet. I think the reason why they started this law ist because of the offers of LCC. However, the point of your question remains valid especially if you think of networks, where partners come from other countries than the EU (for example not only alliances like *A but also the close tie between LH and LX. You can buy LX tickets using LH's website if I remember well. However, Switzerland is not EU. Would be interesting to see, how this gap in the law is closed or if some carriers try to make benefit from the gap at all (if there is really one).

Quoting Flexo (Reply 7):
Will that also include fees like the Ryanair credit card fee and the like?

I think they speak of any cost, that is unavoidable to be on that flight. So this would include such things. However, I'm not sure about extra charges on your luggage, since you can fly for that price (but of course without the luggage).

In summary, I feel generally happy about this new law, as I can more easily compare the prices. I think I would never have thought that I can fly from A to B for free, nor did I want that (because this would be economically and environmentally nonsense) but I want to compare the different fares. Doing that, on a sidenote, I often found out, that LCC not always have the best offer.

Shany



ETOPS - Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently offlineShany From Germany, joined Jul 2008, 113 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10696 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
How much of that price was made up of airline fees vs. government taxes/fees.

Good question, but once more, I think this law is meant to avoid these "super offers" given by some LCC which are often very untransparent.

What I have often noticed by comparing the so called taxes is, that the same city pair by the same airline at different days and times were to cost completely different taxes and fees, which the airlines claimed, come from the state. I find that very odd, because I would think that the taxes only change on a wider time-scale. I can't get rid of the feeling that some carriers use the label "fee/taxes" for simply a higher price. If true, this law could help.

Shany



ETOPS - Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6714 posts, RR: 78
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10671 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
How 'bout the airlines demand the EU show where all the taxes/fees end up?

What about milk, bread, shoes, tv screens, soap, furniture and all other stuff? Should producers of any kind demand that?  Yeah sure
The issue here is misleading advertising.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
How much of that price was made up of airline fees vs. government taxes/fees.

86 Euro...at least according to Germanwings.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineMrocktor From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1668 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10662 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
How 'bout the airlines demand the EU show where all the taxes/fees end up?

This gets my vote as well. Read the fine print, whine less.

The US is going downhill, but the European Nanny State is still showing the world how it's done.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10609 times:



Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 16):
The US is going downhill, but the European Nanny State is still showing the world how it's done.

Actually, the US is showing the EU how it's done. It's been DOT advertising regulations for many years, that ALL charges must be included in advertised domestic fares, except per person government charges and fees (usually only $30 extra). In fact, as Ikra mentioned, most airlines include everything anyway ... VX is one of the exceptions, perhaps because it cannot get rid of it's European practices  Wink


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17330 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10592 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 15):
What about milk, bread, shoes, tv screens, soap, furniture and all other stuff? Should producers of any kind demand that?

Yes. Absolutely.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10538 times:

So, in theory, someone like RyanAir could "sell" their ticketing system to a 3rd party and then pay them to book the flights for them so that they can still advertise the old way? They wont be "owning" the site, so they can circumvent these rules right?

User currently offlineBrianDromey From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 3915 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10451 times:



Quoting Jbernie (Reply 19):
So, in theory, someone like RyanAir could "sell" their ticketing system to a 3rd party and then pay them to book the flights for them so that they can still advertise the old way? They wont be "owning" the site, so they can circumvent these rules right?

They already have. Ryanair Direct is the booking company which is separate from the operational airline. I think it could be hard to police, depending on the wording of the laws. They might do it on purchases made in the EU, thereby getting all airlines operating within the confines of the EU. I think it is a good idea though.

Brian.



Next flights: MAN-ORK-LHR(EI)-MAN(BD); MAN-LHR(BD)-ORK (EI); DUB-ZRH-LAX (LX) LAX-YYZ (AC) YYZ-YHZ-LHR(AC)-DUB(BD)
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 10398 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 15):
86 Euro...at least according to Germanwings.

86 Euro broken down how?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6714 posts, RR: 78
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 10255 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 21):
86 Euro broken down how?

I checked again some minutes ago (LEJ-CGN), total price is 84,58 Euro. Details:

Value-added tax: 13,50
Fuel surcharge: 16,20
Dispatch fee (departure): 19,28
Dispatch fee (arrival): 11,90
Security fee: 9,80
"Surcharge" (whatever that is): 13,90


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19378 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8622 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
Value-added tax: 13,50

A tax on €0?

Interesting...


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 8533 times:



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
"Surcharge" (whatever that is): 13,90

Sounds like another way of saying "ticket price"


25 IRelayer : Fortunately, I don't think we'll ever have to worry about this ever again, especially in the US. -IR
26 Lufthansa411 : The law sounds really good in theory, but as others have pointed out, there are so many loopholes that can be exploited. (Although what law doesnt hav
27 Babybus : It's not Ryanair who'll suffer the most here but UK charter airlines. The masters of deceit. Their advertising should be taken to court for time wasti
28 REALDEAL : the idiots who have written this rule have forgotten one big thing - it will led to higher prices, like trying to regulate the cost of petrol. Less re
29 JohnKrist : Which is not allowed by EMV rules. No surcharge for use of Visa/Mastercard, a rule clearly stated in the terms for use of their credit card systems.
30 Burkhard : And the biggest irony is that we pay these fees to the organisations that have created thís mess, and they continue to increase the mess... But I th
31 JohnKrist : It sure is a good price, and I think if the advertising said "Fly to the UK at 30 euro, all incl." would attract just as many passengers as 0* fares.
32 ComeAndGo : I think the part of the law that applies to websites refers to EU operated websites. Most airlines have a country specific website. BA has one for Ita
33 FlyingAY : No. German Wings went bankrupt years ago. Germanwings on the other hand is owned 100% by Eurowings Luftverkehrs AG. Lufthansa owns 49% of Germanwings
34 CV990Coronado : Excellent this should be so worldwide. Lets also get rid of all the surcharges and have a fare that realy is a fare. Quoting "MaverickM11 "How 'bout t
35 SandroZRH : Point is that Switzerland has implemented this very law ages ago, and the EU finally woke up and copied it (which is a good thing by all means). Why
36 Mrocktor : You forgot to mention that the extra $22 are taxes ande government fees. No, I don't wish for it - but I would deal with it or (and here is the kicke
37 ZRH : Yes. But: first of all Switzerland has a bilateral contract with the EU where all Swiss and EU airlines have the same rights and duties. This means t
38 DABZF : This EU decision is great and should have been in place long time ago! If you add the surcharges and the fees together you get EUR 71.08 VAT in German
39 Shany : Ok, didn't know that there is such a law, although I knew, that Switzerland has bilateral agreements with the EU for traveling. Thank you. Shany
40 Panova98 : As a matter of information, the US "price advertising," or so-called "full-price" rule is written in the US Dept. of Transportation regulations at 14
41 Viscount724 : Only LX flights that have LH codeshare flight numbers as far as I know. For example, you can't book LX flights GVA-JFK-GVA on the LH site.
42 REALDEAL : Airlines could say to govt's everywhere. Stuff it, u collect the taxes & we'll sell airfares (inc surcharges) but not govt taxes.
43 AirNZ : "No" to what? Expedia UK already show the complete price for all flights, and always have done. As above, so I'm not sure at all what you mean. Hmmm!
44 Pyrex : Sounds great. But by all means, let's make the list complete. As an example: tax on the flight: 5€ interest payments and amortization on the airpor
45 Ikramerica : This is a strange practice, because you don't tax a tax in the USA, nor do you tax a government imposed fee. Generally. So are any of those fees actu
46 ComeAndGo : No, the "surcharges and fees" is smart talk for "I want to rip you off" (a LH trait, 49% or not). So the ticket price is 71.08 and the tax is the tax
47 Ikramerica : Yep. And $110 one way plus tax between two out of the way airports hardly seems like a huge bargain to me. Cheaper in the USA on many carriers over e
48 DABZF : ... none of them are goverment imposed. It is either airport or the airline itself who is charging these. ... yes of course it is a rip of from the a
49 Ikramerica : Which is what I figured, but I couldn't tell because they use terms like security fee and dispatch fee, and to an untrained American ear, those COULD
50 Delta777jet : Now EU also need to include free award tickets into this sheme or force the airline to say 20000 miles plus up to 300 EUR one-way in taxes and charges
51 AirNZ : What are you referring to....what Expedia EU site? No it is not, nor has to be part of the fare. How do you come to the conclusion that a 'security c
52 AirNZ : Eh???? What on God's green earth are you talking about, and what a total nonsensical post? Expedia is not an airline of any description!!!!!! For you
53 FlyingAY : However, it can be argued that fuel surcharge (and possibly also "Surcharge") should be included in the fare, as it is going directly to the pockets
54 RedChili : Quote from AirNZ: I have not read the legal text, and I cannot read the German link in the thread starter's post. Thus, I'm limited to what the Daily
55 Ikramerica : See below. Exactly. You shouldn't ever be able to back out fuel and then call anything free...
56 Post contains links AirNZ : I'm sorry, but you are talking complete nonsense and it has nothing whatever to do with what Shany wrote. Indeed, in your post #9 you are then making
57 RedChili : AirNZ, is this, for some reason, a very bad day for you? If you would care to read my post in its context, I think all your problems would go away. I
58 ComeAndGo : I'm referring to US travel agencies that receive payments in EU currencies. In other words if you get a free night stay at a hotel, the hotel could i
59 AirNZ : No, a company imposed fee is not part of the fare at all, and which is a separate entity entirely. If I would point out an example, a baggage charge
60 AirNZ : No RedChilli, it is not a bad day at all for me, but I am more than surprised. Firstly, if I misread your post #9 I apologise for any upset but that
61 Bond007 : Boy, was it a bad day for you then also?? I believe it's grammatically correct, and valid, to state ALL, followed by EXCEPT, in order to state that e
62 AirNZ : I would respectfully disagree, but then we're probably playing with semantics really......Using ALL and EXCEPT in the same sentence is a natural cont
63 RedChili : I thought I was making a very simple and obvious observation that the previous posters had not noticed. There was a discussion going on about "when E
64 ComeAndGo : A company imposed fee such as airport charges is part of the cost to transport the passenger. That cost is part of the ticket and not counted extra.
65 MillwallSean : The same rules will apply to all EU based providers, not just airlines. Meaning that expedia.co.uk have to follow it. If the system is abused its very
66 ComeAndGo : UK and Italy are not much better. Unfortunately, we have to live with Virgin America that can't shed it's European trait of grossly inflating adverti
67 MillwallSean : This new legislation is also part of the consumerlaws being introduced in Europe. the EU is taking over these functions from the national states and a
68 RedChili : I fear that his fair attempt at spelling ticket fare did not fare so well... Maybe he should say farewell to the fairway and go back to Miss Feer in
69 LJ : Expedia is a travel agent and as such already bound by EU law stating that all travel agents must publish "all-in" prices. This is not the legislatio
70 BuyantUkhaa : Why would the EU have to show that? They don't collect the taxes... Switzerland is part of the EEA (with the EU, Norway and Iceland). An EC resolutio
71 Flexo : You are using different currencies of course. The comparable numbers are: Debt: USA: US $ 9 trillion UK: US $ 1.2 trillion GDP (2007): USA: US $ 14.0
72 Vfw614 : Look, the whole legislation is about consumer protection, and thus the point of view of the consumer is all that matters for the legislator. You are
73 RedChili : Actually, no. Switzerland is not a member of the EEA, but Lichtenstein is. But Switzerland has a lot of independent agreements with the EU which cove
74 AirNZ : Whoa, whoa, just wait and hold up there!!! I am not singing any airline's tune whatsoever, or anything else for that matter.......what I am stipulati
75 Bond007 : OK, but the reasons you don't hear folks, especially Americans, complain about this, is because it is not related to "unfair and false advertising".
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