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AA Downsizing At FLL  
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5207 times:
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http://www.miamiherald.com/business/story/598073.html

AA is cutting 79 jobs and a third of its flights at FLL. Flights cut: all 3 dailies to SJU, both dailies to NAS, and the non-stop to LAX.


Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5123 times:
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With such a mega hub at MIA are they just attracting the same passengers that would have flown them anyways, just out of MIA?


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5074 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
With such a mega hub at MIA are they just attracting the same passengers that would have flown them anyways, just out of MIA?

Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

The cuts are unfortunate, though in addition to flying to Chicago and Dallas, AA will continue to fly daily from Fort Lauderdale to Kingston, Port Au Prince, and San José.



a.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5056 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineBartolo From Spain, joined Jan 2006, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4882 times:

Good news for Spirit Airlines!!!!

User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7521 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4660 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 1):
With such a mega hub at MIA are they just attracting the same passengers that would have flown them anyways, just out of MIA?

In most instances, AA's FLL fares are usually much cheaper than their MIA fares.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineMoMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4397 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
The cuts are unfortunate, though in addition to flying to Chicago and Dallas, AA will continue to fly daily from Fort Lauderdale to Kingston, Port Au Prince, and San José.

Do you see the winter STL flight returning?



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4343 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.

And the opposite is true for just as many, including myself.

Quoting MoMan (Reply 6):

Do you see the winter STL flight returning?

No, it is not returning.



a.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4331 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.

And the opposite is true for just as many, including myself.

Yes we have already beaten this horse to death. Your love of all things MIA is evident.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineFLY2LIM From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4317 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.

I don't live in Miami but my friend does, and she chooses to fly on AA strictly because she likes to avoid MIA and loves FLL. I have to think that this is the case for many people.

FLY2LIM



Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4302 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.

And the opposite is true for just as many, including myself.

Yes we have already beaten this horse to death. Your love of all things MIA is evident.

So you are allowed to state your preference, but I'm not without being snapped back at? I guess that makes sense.



a.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4291 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 8):

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Not nessecarily. They were also attracting passengers who avoid MIA all together.

Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.

And the opposite is true for just as many, including myself.

Yes we have already beaten this horse to death. Your love of all things MIA is evident.

So you are allowed to state your preference, but I'm not without being snapped back at? I guess that makes sense.

Not at all, just commenting that your past posting history and vocal support of MIA is well known. Sorry if I came across otherwise.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 4279 times:

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 11):
Not at all, just commenting that your past posting history and vocal support of MIA is well known. Sorry if I came across otherwise.

No worries. I wasn't commenting on MIA vs. FLL, just saying that just as many people prefer MIA as there are that prefer FLL; more than people would think. Though with all the cuts at FLL, soon more passengers will essentially be forced to fly to MIA if they want a non-stop (or a flight from California that isn't a redeye), so it will be interesting to see what happens as a result of the heavy cuts DL, AA, and UA have made at FLL.

Though expect a significant Southwest build-up at FLL in 2009, from what I hear; more than just the five daily flights being added this fall.

[Edited 2008-07-09 18:14:30]


a.
User currently offlineShadez From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4140 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):

Though expect a significant Southwest build-up at FLL in 2009, from what I hear; more than just the five daily flights being added this fall.

Makes sense. We've already seen them pick up two dropped routes: MCI (YX), and LAS (DL+ US reductions).

My wish list would include: BMH, ORF, CMH, PIT, and ABQ. Depending on how risky they feel, SAN would be nice, and SLC could be an option with DL cutting the route.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4121 times:

Quoting Shadez (Reply 13):
SLC could be an option with DL cutting the route.

DL actually isn't dropping it; it's a short-term suspension.

I think we will see PIT, CMH, and BDL added in 2009.

I would not rule out ORF, ABQ, and BHM. Essentially, FLL can support anything that TPA supports, so a look at TPA's route network can give a good idea at what might be in store for FLL.

[Edited 2008-07-09 19:32:01]


a.
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7175 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3928 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 3):
Well in all honesty that is a given for a whole lot of folks myself included.



Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 9):
I don't live in Miami but my friend does, and she chooses to fly on AA strictly because she likes to avoid MIA and loves FLL. I have to think that this is the case for many people.

Not exactly, for anyone who lives in the city of Miami or south it is a hassle to drive all the way up to FLL or pay $70 each way. Also FLL has all those ATC delays which MIA does not experience as much. I never seen a problem with MIA when traveling O/D on any aspect except for the time it takes to get your luggage at bag claim, and I have never seen anything special with flying out or in to FLL.

Anyway the cuts at FLL of unfortunate but its something all the airlines are doing. Schedules need to be reduced to save fuel and these flights are not must keeps. FLL-PAP is a must keep flight though. I was surprised to see FLL-NAS go, but there are still 3 airlines flying the route multiple times daily.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3875 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
just saying that just as many people prefer MIA as there are that prefer FLL; more than people would think.

Come on Mark, that simply is not true and you know it of all people on these forums.  Smile If MIA was as popular with locals as FLL then it would have O&D figures close to FLL's. FLL is by far the O&D airport of South Florida. MIA is a hub airport with a substantial percentage (I can't find the latest percentage) of their annual passengers simply connecting between flights and not setting a foot out of the airport and they are not a local catching an originating flight.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 15):
Also FLL has all those ATC delays which MIA does not experience as much. I never seen a problem with MIA when traveling O/D on any aspect except for the time it takes to get your luggage at bag claim, and I have never seen anything special with flying out or in to FLL.

FLL hasn't had "all those ATC delays" for a year or more and that has been reported numerous times in the Herald and Sun Sentinel. I'm sure someone can pull up the statistics that bear this out. The BTS statistics for January 1 thru May 31, 2008 show that FLL is ranked #19 in the country with 77.37% of flights departing on time and MIA is ranked #29 with 70.78% of flights departing on time, which is the exact opposite of what you stated.

You personally don't see a problem with MIA except for the notoriously long baggage wait times, but plenty of other folks do and they refuse to fly out of MIA unless it's absolutely necessary. Here's a few problems that other folks see with using MIA:

1. Location, location, location. FLL is centrally located within the South Florida population base. MIA is at least 20 miles south of the center of population.

2. Traffic congestion southbound on I-75, the Palmetto, the Turnpike, I-95, NW 27th Avenue, LeJeune Road, etc. is a big problem with North Dade, Broward and Palm Beach county residents who find it much easier to drive to FLL. One big delay on those roadways can cause you to be late for your flight and with non-refundable tickets who wants to risk paying a hefty change fee for missing your flight, assuming you cancel your rez before your flight departs?

3. Airfares are generally lower out of FLL than MIA which makes it very worthwhile to fly out of FLL, especially if you have a family of three, four or more going on the trip.

4. People say, in these forums and in letters to the editor time and time again, that airline and airport employees are "friendlier" at FLL than MIA, that MIA is full of rude people despite all the costly airport courtesy training, etc. I would speculate that the language barriers at MIA are responsible for a lot of people feeling that way when all they get is silence or something incomprehensible uttered in another language when they stop someone to ask for directions.

5. People say, in these forums and in letters to the editor, that MIA looks like a war zone in places due to construction, reconstruction, whatever. You don't have that war zone scenario at FLL and FLL has nothing similar to MIA's old Concourse G that I've seen.

6. Where at MIA can you park in a garage as close to the security checkpoint as you can at FLL when parking in the Cypress Garage and catching a flight on an airline (Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, Continental, and Northwest) out of beautiful efficient Terminal 1? Virtually nowhere unless you park at 0400. Certain parts of the Hibiscus garage are identically close to Terminal 2's airlines (Delta, Air Canada, Allegiant, and Midwest). The hikes, or tram rides, to other terminals are further from the garages but I never fly on airlines using those terminals. At least FLL has the tram service to eliminate long as hell hikes from the garages to the other terminals.

7. The perception of crime around FLL is far lower than MIA, especially to residents of Broward and Palm Beach counties, and even more if they moved out of Dade years or decades ago to escape it. People just don't relish the idea of getting mugged or carjacked even if the odds of it happening to them are remote compared to what people envision from numerous crime stories on TV and in the newspapers. FLL just doesn't have crime-ridden areas around it like the east side of MIA.

8. Southwest flies to FLL. They don't fly to MIA, which is a darn good reason to fly out of FLL.  Wow!



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting DB777 (Reply 16):
MIA is a hub airport with a substantial percentage (I can't find the latest percentage) of their annual passengers simply

It's not "substantial." I believe the split somewhere around half (45 to 55%), which is very high for a hub operation. It has been on the rise in the past few years thanks to AA re-focusing on building up domestic O&D out of MIA. In 2007, AA carried more O&D than they did connecting passengers at MIA.

I'm not doubting FLL is the main domestic gateway. Has been for a while and likely always will be, but domestic O&D at MIA as gone up about 20% since 2004 as AA created much friendlier schedules for local passengers, combined with adding about 18 new domestic routes, many of which are not served from FLL non-stop.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 16):
You don't have that war zone scenario at FLL and FLL has nothing similar to MIA's old Concourse G that I've seen.

G is a dump, but so is FLL's Terminal 4. Meanwhile, FLL's Terminal 1 is beautiful, but doesn't come close to matching MIA's Concourse J.

They each have their good terminals and their bad.

[Edited 2008-07-10 01:43:28]


a.
User currently offlineCaribbean484 From Trinidad and Tobago, joined Jan 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3777 times:



Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 15):
Not exactly, for anyone who lives in the city of Miami or south it is a hassle to drive all the way up to FLL or pay $70 each way. Also FLL has all those ATC delays which MIA does not experience as much. I never seen a problem with MIA when traveling O/D on any aspect except for the time it takes to get your luggage at bag claim, and I have never seen anything special with flying out or in to FLL.

For on thing those ATC problems are better this year at FLL because of better scheduling and traffic patterns at FLL.
Then FLL is going to start the much needed second runway expansion to accommodate more flight arrival/departure by 2011.
You don't have to drive up to FLL you can use the Tri-Rail services that ia about US$2 each way. I use it to go from MIA to FLL and it saves me money, especially with gas at over US$4 per gallon.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 16):
5. People say, in these forums and in letters to the editor, that MIA looks like a war zone in places due to construction, reconstruction, whatever. You don't have that war zone scenario at FLL and FLL has nothing similar to MIA's old Concourse G that I've seen.

The warzone is at the North Terminal and we all know who is there.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
G is a dump, but so is FLL's Terminal 4. Meanwhile, FLL's Terminal 1 is beautiful, but doesn't come close to matching MIA's Concourse J.

Terminal 4 at FLL is to be replaced by a new terminal 4 which is in the conceptual phase still and should be know by late next year. The plan is to reconstruct it as a new main terminal with connecting 3 and 4. But J is really good.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 16):
7. The perception of crime around FLL is far lower than MIA, especially to residents of Broward and Palm Beach counties, and even more if they moved out of Dade years or decades ago to escape it. FLL just doesn't have crime-ridden areas around it like the east side of MIA.

FLL is located between an entire industrialised area so the crime perception is low when you are between I-95, I-75, US1 and the intercontinental cargo railway.



All ah we is one family
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Time for UA to buy Spirit and create a Southern hub out of FLL!

A man can dream  Smile


User currently offlineCschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1249 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3365 times:



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 5):
In most instances, AA's FLL fares are usually much cheaper than their MIA fares

Partly because MIA is an expensive airport for airline operations.


User currently offlineDB777 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 885 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3236 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
It's not "substantial." I believe the split somewhere around half (45 to 55%), which is very high for a hub operation.

I thought it was around 50% but I didn't want to put it into writing without being sure. To me, that's substantial. Let's assume 50% is correct just for the heck of it.

According to MIA's website statistics:

MIA - 32,500,000 total passengers in calendar year 2006
FLL - 21,400,000 total passengers in calendar year 2006

If 50% of those pax were connecting passengers at MIA, that leaves 16,250,000 O&D pax for MIA

FLL probably has 2 or 3% connecting passengers (wild ass guess). So let's say 500,000 are connecting passengers. That leaves 20,900,000 O&D passengers at FLL, or 4,650,000 more O&D passengers than what MIA has. I think the gap used to be higher than that in years past.

Quoting Cschleic (Reply 20):
Partly because MIA is an expensive airport for airline operations.

The latest figures I've seen for both airports is $17.39 per enplaned passenger at MIA and $5.45 at FLL. MIA's will be up in the mid to high $30's, and possibly higher, when they have to start making their full capital improvement program bond payments. I haven't seen any figures for FLL's future per enplanement cost.



.



Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting DB777 (Reply 21):

I thought it was around 50% but I didn't want to put it into writing without being sure. To me, that's substantial. Let's assume 50% is correct just for the heck of it.

To you it might be substantial. Compared to most major hubs, it's not. AA's MIA operations is one of the most O&D heavy hub operations in the United States. Very few hubs operations have as large an O&D percentage. In fact, I believe the only hub among the major U.S. airlines with more O&D than AA at MIA are Delta's JFK hub and United's Dulles hub and LAX "hub." Most hub operations are around 30% O&D.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 21):
FLL probably has 2 or 3% connecting passengers (wild ass guess).

It used to be like that. With the growth of Spirit, it's now around 10-12% connecting.

Quoting DB777 (Reply 21):
I think the gap used to be higher than that in years past.

Yes, the gap has narrowed since 2004. FLL has seen a sharp increase in international connecting passengers; MIA has seen a sharp increase in domestic O&D.

[Edited 2008-07-10 22:41:13]


a.
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

Mark-I haven't been keeping up with American's schedules, but do they no longer fly Fort Lauderdale-LaGuardia?


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3180 times:



Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 23):
Mark-I haven't been keeping up with American's schedules, but do they no longer fly Fort Lauderdale-LaGuardia?

Discontinued already.

After the September, it will be just DFW, KIN, ORD, PAP, and SJO.



a.
25 Ocracoke : With most of the increase in the (non-military) population in the last 30 years in the Tidewater area seeming to come from New York, I'm surprised th
26 MAH4546 : Half-heartedly? They've had a daily ERJ-140 for more than two years now, recently upgraded to an ERJ-145. They don't really have the RJs to add frequ
27 Ocracoke : Yea, I realize that AA has problems getting more planes into their system. I'm just speaking from an ORF point of view. I've always had this feeling
28 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : Getting back to FLL and AA, the subject at hand. Myself guilty (or in Airline speak..what they want), make the trip to South Florida every month to vi
29 YULYMX : PBI is just up the road also
30 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : Well aware..read my comments again....
31 Cubsrule : The more they cut STL, the more MIA can grow (not to mention that, if AA was interested, there are now some ex-UA* ERJs that could move over to CHQ's
32 Anetter123 : I fly out of MIA all the time and have never experienced a delay. Also MIA has 4 runaways and FLL technically only has 1 fully functional runaway to
33 AA757MIA : Myself included as well, mostly because of the non-stop flight availability from MIA...
34 Hondah35 : I'm not sure why anyone would want to fly through FLL instead of MIA. Why would you want to miss security lines stretching out the front door of the a
35 FlyMIA : True but the More Northern Areas of Miami-Dade Country after Miami are the ones with the largest populations but Miami-Dade is the largest county in
36 TN757Flyer : Assuming they are going to be around to reap the benefits. If one is to believe other threads on a.net, they are high up on the endangered species li
37 SCL767 : Really? Then how come they are still expanding Internationally? According to the Sun-Sentinel, "Miramar-based Spirit handled the largest number of pa
38 TN757Flyer : Note what I said. They are likely expanding internationally like most carriers to offset the domestic losses. I don't know if they are in trouble or
39 DeltaL1011man : Why they had a better one in MIA and they pretty much got scared of AA put there tail between there legs and ran. The bad thing about it was had Ron
40 N62NA : I live in Miami Beach and use MIA exclusively (and frequently 15 to 20 times a year) and find it to be a pretty good facility for the most part. But H
41 Cubsrule : It's true, but it's ridiculous. Conditions are never ideal during major construction projects. The walk to and from C is no exception.
42 SCL767 : "Spirit Airlines attacks record high fuel prices by revising 2008 growth, cutting 15% of non-fuel costs, continuing to increase NON-TICKET REVENUE, a
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