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Question On AA F100s  
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

I just bought the August issue of Airliner World. Free with it comes the Airliner World Global Airline Guide 2008.

The Guide has listed all operators, their IATA code, ICAO code, Aircraft types they operate and their website addresses.

Well I was reading through the guide and I stopped to look at the AA section, mainly just to see how many Mad Dogs they have these days. I was shocked to find that, according to the guide, they still operate 4 Fokker F100s.

Are these aircraft stored in the desert? Or has the guide got it wrong?

I didn't think AA had any left but the guide is supposed to be accurate of May 2008

Cheers BA787

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 4965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

The guide is wrong... As much as I'd like it to be true (those F100s were fantastic aircraft), they were retired from use in 2004.


Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4037 times:



Quoting BA787 (Thread starter):
I was shocked to find that, according to the guide, they still operate 4 Fokker F100s

Mate, no need to get shocked about it. As with most aviation periodicals, they're not up to date at the moment of print.



"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineExpressJet_ERJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 834 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3809 times:

They may still own them, maybe looking for a buyer.


ETOPS...Engines Turn Or People Swim
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3798 times:



Quoting ExpressJet_ERJ (Reply 3):
They may still own them, maybe looking for a buyer

Most likely the correct answer. The F100's have been parked for years... I'm sure they are just on the AA Ops Spec......thus still listed



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineDFW13L From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

A lot of them are painted completely in bright hot pink as Helvetic. Well I guess they were and now they are painted a bit better. Anyway, I have thought this was a strange look for the formerly silver F100s:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jerome Zbinden



I think all of Helvetic's fleet consists of former AA F100s.


User currently offlineCALRAMPER From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3721 times:

AA still has 4 of them parked in the desert


ETOPS-Engines Turn or People Swim
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3678 times:



Quoting DFW13L (Reply 5):
A lot of them are painted completely in bright hot pink as Helvetic.

"A lot" isn't a good term for Helvetic's fleet which currently comprises 4 Fokker 100s. They had 7 at one time. They're ending all their scheduled services in October and will then only operate charters and the few scheduled LX routes they operate on a wet-lease basis.


User currently offlineTWA1985 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3676 times:

I am not sure if anyone knows this neat bit of F-100 trivia, but the F-100's wings were glued on, and that is about it in terms of securing them to the fuselage.

I am good friends with an AA mechanic at ORD and he was always terrified to fly on that aircraft, but then again he is afraid to fly as it is - go figure.

TWA1985


User currently offlineBrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4414 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3661 times:

I think they have around 8 stored in the desert I believe.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3631 times:



Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 8):
I am not sure if anyone knows this neat bit of F-100 trivia, but the F-100's wings were glued on, and that is about it in terms of securing them to the fuselage.

I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source for that?

In any case, both the F100 and it's shorter twin the F70 have among the best safety records of all commercial jets, especially considering their mostly shorthaul operations. Only two fatal F100 accidents after more than 20 years service, and the F70 is accident-free.


User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3619 times:

When I worked for AA in the '90s I loved that bird! Almost flawless entry into the fleet and happy passengers. The only problem was that as a gate agent you might work the departure alone and in the day of paper tickets that meant LOTS of running!

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3618 times:



Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 8):
I am good friends with an AA mechanic at ORD and he was always terrified to fly on that aircraft, but then again he is afraid to fly as it is - go figure.

Those things were pretty horrific from a maintenance perspective.

I remember talking to mechanics who referred to them as "those pieces of sh*t from Holland."

I'm not saying they were unsafe - I have no doubt they were, and I had no particular reservations about flying on them, which I did countless times.

However, the Fokkers that AA had were absolutely maintenance hogs, which is a big part of the reason why AA got rid of them. (The fact that, especially towards the end, AA had to manufacture many of their own spare parts in house because of Fokker's collapse, also didn't help!)

They were also always amazingly hot inside during the Texas summer.


User currently offlineB727LVR From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 630 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3457 times:

They still have 4. Last I knew they were parked in Roswell. I worked there when they flew them in from either Mojave or Victorville. If you haven't been to Roswell, you should go check it out, its quite an impressive sight.


B727



I'm like a kid in a candy store when it comes to planes!
User currently offlineFlyibaby From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3448 times:

I remember the JI F100's always smelled like a dirty lavatory, but they didn't have near the MX issues the AA ones apparently did.

User currently offlineDALCE From Netherlands, joined Feb 2007, 1721 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3446 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
However, the Fokkers that AA had were absolutely maintenance hogs

How do AA mechanics think of the 737 / 767 / 777 and the mad dogs.
It seems that all aircraft except for the US built aircraft are called mainenance hogs.
The AB6's are also maintenance hogs in the AA fleet.
Is it really like that or do I smell a tiny bit of national pride towards Boeing and McDD?  stirthepot 



flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,744,77W,319,320,321,333,AB6.
User currently offlineBA787 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2006, 2596 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3351 times:



Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 2):

I wasn't really being literal mate, surprised would have been a better way of putting it.  Silly


Thanks for the response guys. Would i be right in thinking then that the F100s were probably retired before they really needed to be? Obviously AA thought it necessary but they were quite young were they not?

BA787


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3303 times:



Quoting DALCE (Reply 15):
How do AA mechanics think of the 737 / 767 / 777 and the mad dogs.
It seems that all aircraft except for the US built aircraft are called mainenance hogs.
The AB6's are also maintenance hogs in the AA fleet.
Is it really like that or do I smell a tiny bit of national pride towards Boeing and McDD? stirthepot

From what I've heard, the 737s and 777s - being all new (oldest is not even 10 yet) - are great. The 757s require a little more maintenance, being older, but are still amazingly reliable. The 767s are getting far worse as they age, and they are becoming very, very maintenance intensive, while the A300s are horrific, as were the Fokkers and MD11s. The MD80s are also getting worse as they age although, given their age, they are actually fair good relatively.

This is not about national pride towards any manufacturer.


User currently offlineTWA1985 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 3162 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
Quoting TWA1985 (Reply 8):
I am not sure if anyone knows this neat bit of F-100 trivia, but the F-100's wings were glued on, and that is about it in terms of securing them to the fuselage.

I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source for that?

Yep, his name is Jim Wiegman (An AA mechanic at ORD).


User currently offlineFlyguy41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 36 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Loved working those planes...but they were carry on luggage nightmares. The overhead bins were tiny and slanted. Also, we used to call them the "Little Dutch Oven", because if you were in the back jumpseat, there was no tail exit in an emergency - you had to make a mad dash to the window exits...........

Also, quite a few went to JetsGo in Canada before they went under.


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3391 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 3073 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 12):
The fact that, especially towards the end, AA had to manufacture many of their own spare parts in house because of Fokker's collapse, also didn't help!)

What did not help is that AA did not buy into the Fokker (later Stork/Fokker) spare parts pool They figured they could do it cheaper by themselves. Availability of spare parts is not a problem, even today. You just have to be willing to pay for them.

Quoting Flyguy41 (Reply 19):
there was no tail exit in an emergency - you had to make a mad dash to the window exits...........

Actually, Fokker did offer a rear exit just in front of the #1 engine. Must admit I am not sure if this option was already available by the time AA ordered theirs.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Besides being a maintenance hog, the F100 at least with AA I know, completely underperformed.

When at ERAU, one of my roommates did the AA internship in Dallas, and one project assigned was a route/yield analysis of the F100 opertions out of the DFW hub. He then used this as a basis for a senior thesis he had to complete later, but when at AA, the airline had noticed certain routes where they flew the F100 and actually were losing revenue when compared to the MD-80. I remember one route in particular that they analyzed heavily was DFW-Houston and the airline noticed that when the F100 would be flown, it was so underpowered on that short of a route, that they couldn't fly fully loaded with pax and carry the revenue generating cargo beneath. They were either leaving pax/cargo behind on these flights and during their research, he was able to jumpseat a flight and he remarked how it felt the plane just struggled to get to cruise on the shorter leg between Dallas and Houston. After the analysis was completed, AA determined on this route in specific that while flying the MD80, which offered more available seats and thus might show a lower load factor from a statistic perspective, the airline still though could carry as much cargo as they might need down below increasing revenue generated. My roommate at the time was specifically assigned to analyzing the Dallas-Houston route while other intern counterparts looked at other routes, and I remember that he mentioned that one other route, I think it was DFW-OMA or DFW-DSM, the airline found the complete opposite when utilizing the F100 simply because the lack of cargo flown bewteen the two cities. It also was a stage length just long enough I guess for the F100 to perform to spec whereas other toutes AA truly struggled to get the F100 to kick it into gear.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11969 posts, RR: 62
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2995 times:



Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 20):
They figured they could do it cheaper by themselves.

Precisely the point: they could do it cheaper in-house, but still not as cheap as it was to buy things off the shelf for other aircraft, or the F100.

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 21):
When at ERAU, one of my roommates did the AA internship in Dallas, and one project assigned was a route/yield analysis of the F100 opertions out of the DFW hub.

Well, one of the issues AA had with the plane was that its economics weren't as they expected - and thus it was never really used in the markets they were originally planning for it to be used in. AA bought the plane for short-haul, high-cycle flying: markets like DFW-SAT, ORD-IND, etc., but it ended up flying on routes like ORD-SAT and DFW-CLT, which have much longer stage lengths and far fewer cycles.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7564 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2988 times:

AA does indeed still have 4 F-100's that they own.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineTUSAA From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 244 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2983 times:



Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 21):
Besides being a maintenance hog, the F100 at least with AA I know, completely underperformed.

When at ERAU, one of my roommates did the AA internship in Dallas, and one project assigned was a route/yield analysis of the F100 opertions out of the DFW hub.

The F100's were a challenge from a baggage/cargo respect, they simply could't hold that much and were always weight restricted on some of the longer hauls. I know DFW-JAX was a major issue because the flights were always oversold, then the rampers would run out of room and end up leaving 30 or more pairs of golf clubs behind for the next flight, which had the same problem as the first, no room for the clubs. It was the same issue on the DFW-GDL flight, after about a week we would have to sub a 727 or 757 for the F100 just to get the 300 bags left behind. Also, the baggage compartments were rather small and confined to the point where a lot of rampers were getting hurt from having to lay on their backs while loading bags.


25 FlyCaledonian : So what did the Fokker 100 offer over the MD-87 that made AA order 75 of them?
26 TUSAA : AA got them dirt cheap!! Usair had already been flying them, but Fokker wanted more carriers in the US to have them, so AA struck a deal with Fokker
27 KELPkid : Never noticed that. The A/C seemed to work just fine on many ELP-DFW legs that I was a passenger on... I loved those oval-shaped windows, too!
28 PSU.DTW.SCE : They were fairly reliable, and AA had surprisingly few teething problems, but they had a lot of quirks to them. The F-100's were decent from a reliab
29 LMP737 : I don't know about other people but I call it like I see it. The MD-90 was a royal pain in the butt when it came to maintenance and it was built in t
30 AMSSFO : I guess these four are N1402K/11353, N1403M/11354, N1404D/11355 and N1405J/11356. These should be located at ROW where they were ferried to from MHV i
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