ORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2423 times:
If you go to MDW you see lots of WN birds with people getting off of one and connecting to another one. You can see this at PHX, LAS, HOU, and other large WN cities. That sounds like a hub to me but WN is always saying they are avoiding the costs of hubs. I don't get it. The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?
Mayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 9203 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2417 times:
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
RandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2399 times:
When it looks, smells and acts like PIT (US), GSO (CO), BNA (AA) RDU (AA), CMH (HP), MCI (EA) - the list is endless. I believe the best examples of Hubs that are no longer Hubs are RDU and PIT which were both de-hubbed by AA and US respectively.
CRJ200FAGuy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 385 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2311 times:
ThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2274 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2210 times:
Quoting Mayor (Reply 1): If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Thats all you need for WN those mentioned were hubs
Steeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 8816 posts, RR: 19 Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2015 times:
Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter): The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?
I think you answered it yourself. I think that is pretty much the main definition of a hub, banks of arrivals and departures for connecting traffic. WN operates over 100 daily flights at each of its large bases, but they mostly rely on O&D city pairs.
Airlines like US, AA, CO, DL, etc, they all have their hubs at markets with substantial O&D so that their O&D city pairs can be banked for arrivals and departures connections. Plus, it is mainly at hubs where much of the international flights arrive and depart from, and those international flights are often banked with many other arriving/departing domestic flights.
In this day and age, this is the only way for an airline to make money, off of O&D flying rather than connecting. That's why GSO and PIT are no longer hubs for anyone...
I hope that helps
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2755 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 1956 times:
There is no official definition of a hub that applies to every airline. Mostly it is a marketing term used to describe a substanital operation. WN claims to not have hubs - so PHX, LAS, MDW etc. where people connect any less of a hub than DL in ATL or AA in DFW?
A hub is not a hub when an airline says it's not a hub.
ORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1853 times:
Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6): A hub is not a hub when an airline says it's not a hub.
I guess your right. AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2755 posts, RR: 7 Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1809 times:
Quoting ORDagent (Reply 7): I guess your right. AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.
Indeed.
Another example is AA's operation at LAX - to some, it's a hub, to AA it's a focus city. What's the difference between a hub and a focus city? None really. But airlines choose to call them hubs or focus cities by their own will.
Now those of us on Anet love to debate this subject, but to the bottom line is that the airlines make these calls.
Wilax From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 465 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1705 times:
We're all intelligent people here. Let's lay down some guidelines.
These are my suggestions:
If an airline has more connecting traffic than O&D at an airport, it is a Hub.
i.e. AA @ DFW
If more of an airline's flights originate and terminate than pass through an airport, It is a focus city.
i.e. UA @ LAX
If an airport could not possibly generate O&D traffic sufficient to fill the amount of aircraft present, it is a Hub
i.e. DL @ CVG
Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW
Focus cities are often coastal or have large attractions.
i.e. MCO, LAX, BOS, JFK
Hubs can be in obscure cities with strange international non-stops.
i.e. AA with RDU-LHR, US with CLT-CDG--or something like that--
Of course, these rules are US based, because most other countries only have hubs and long-haul international traffic at a few main cities. The dynamics of other countries' route maps are almost entirely different. However, countries with multiple mega-cities like Brazil, China, India, and Mexico do have similar route structures.
NYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 653 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1671 times:
Quoting Wilax (Reply 9): Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW
Focus cities are often coastal or have large attractions.
i.e. MCO, LAX, BOS, JFK
So how do you explain IAH, SEA, EWR (which is in the same catchment area as JFK), IAD. each one of those is on a coast and yet are extensive hubs for their respective airlines.
I think needs to be a hub airport needs to be redefined as an airport in which the schedule of flights permits a significant number of people (vs. O&D) to connect to other flights. In many instances there are numerous international flights and short hall regional fights at the airports in question.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
PC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1521 times:
BigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2755 posts, RR: 7 Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1488 times:
Quoting Wilax (Reply 9): Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW
How do you factor in international gateway hub operations, such as AA @ MIA, UA @ SFO, DL @ JFK?
InnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 16 Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1313 times:
Remember, folks... central to the route map is different than central to the country. For example, CLT for US was obviously a hub... but they also had no western presence prior to the merger. Same with PHX for HP... which was obviously their hub... in the center of their route map.
With regard to multi-hub airlines such as UA, it is obvious that there hubs were laid out to handle differing traffic patterns. IAD is certainly a hub in that connections up and down the east coast use it - which is vastly preferable to connecting at ORD or DEN. The same can be said for DEN but with reversed polarity.
IAH is the same situation. Most of CO's route map is southern and eastern... and also Latin America. Considering that, IAH makes perfect sense. Same with MIA given their S. American presence.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
AirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 486 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1307 times:
Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 2): When it looks, smells and acts like PIT (US), GSO (CO), BNA (AA) RDU (AA), CMH (HP), MCI (EA) - the list is endless.
Sadly, there are apparently rumours that PHX will be joining those ranks (at least on the US side). Not that I am at all sad over US' contraction; but, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be rushing to pick up their slack and the north side of T4 will be somewhat of a ghost town. Hoping for the best.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6365 posts, RR: 34 Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1197 times:
Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter): I don't get it. The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?
Well, the lack of arrival & departure "banks" is indeed one difference. Another one (in the case of WN) is that they typically don't operate flights to and from their large cities with very little local demand; for example, routes flown by other carriers like PHX-TUS, PHL-BWI, LAX-SAN, etc. (There are a handful of exceptions like RSW-MCO and ORF-BWI.) Their marketing is generally aimed at promoting demand for their non-stop flights, and they almost always price individual segments for less than the connections made by combining segments.
Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter): WN is always saying they are avoiding the costs of hubs.
Well, yes they are. Take PHX as an example. Southwest leases 24 gates at PHX and handled 12.35 million passengers there from March 2007 to April 2008 -- or about 515,000 annual passengers per gate. Now, US Airways plus Mesa leases roughly 50 gates and had about 17.68 million passengers in the same period -- or 354,000 annual passengers per gate. They have to have staff on hand to support the highest-traffic periods (arrival/departure banks) as well as all the supporting ground equipment. Southwest's schedule is more evenly spread out throughout the day. So Southwest is close to 50% more efficient with their resources on the ground at PHX. Not scheduling for arrival/departure banks also helps to minimize the amount of time aircraft sit on the ground at outstations.
Quoting ORDagent (Reply 7): AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.
And it helps reduce costs by reducing the number of staff that need to be on hand at any given time. You don't have rampers sitting in the break room waiting for the next bank.
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