Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
When Is A Hub Not A Hub?  
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

If you go to MDW you see lots of WN birds with people getting off of one and connecting to another one. You can see this at PHX, LAS, HOU, and other large WN cities. That sounds like a hub to me but WN is always saying they are avoiding the costs of hubs. I don't get it. The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10392 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineRandyWaldron From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 324 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2965 times:

When it looks, smells and acts like PIT (US), GSO (CO), BNA (AA) RDU (AA), CMH (HP), MCI (EA) - the list is endless. I believe the best examples of Hubs that are no longer Hubs are RDU and PIT which were both de-hubbed by AA and US respectively.


"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
User currently offlineCRJ200FAGuy From United States of America, joined May 2007, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2877 times:

When it's CVG or MEM in 2009.

User currently offlineThegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2776 times:



Quoting Mayor (Reply 1):
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Thats all you need for WN those mentioned were hubs



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9194 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2581 times:



Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 2):
When it looks, smells and acts like PIT

Darn! Beat me to it!

Now, to answer the question:

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?

I think you answered it yourself. I think that is pretty much the main definition of a hub, banks of arrivals and departures for connecting traffic. WN operates over 100 daily flights at each of its large bases, but they mostly rely on O&D city pairs.

Airlines like US, AA, CO, DL, etc, they all have their hubs at markets with substantial O&D so that their O&D city pairs can be banked for arrivals and departures connections. Plus, it is mainly at hubs where much of the international flights arrive and depart from, and those international flights are often banked with many other arriving/departing domestic flights.

In this day and age, this is the only way for an airline to make money, off of O&D flying rather than connecting. That's why GSO and PIT are no longer hubs for anyone...

I hope that helps  Smile



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2522 times:

There is no official definition of a hub that applies to every airline. Mostly it is a marketing term used to describe a substanital operation. WN claims to not have hubs - so PHX, LAS, MDW etc. where people connect any less of a hub than DL in ATL or AA in DFW?

A hub is not a hub when an airline says it's not a hub.


User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2419 times:



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
A hub is not a hub when an airline says it's not a hub.

I guess your right. AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.


User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2375 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Reply 7):
I guess your right. AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.

Indeed.

Another example is AA's operation at LAX - to some, it's a hub, to AA it's a focus city. What's the difference between a hub and a focus city? None really. But airlines choose to call them hubs or focus cities by their own will.

Now those of us on Anet love to debate this subject, but to the bottom line is that the airlines make these calls.


User currently offlineWilax From United States of America, joined Jun 2002, 465 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

We're all intelligent people here. Let's lay down some guidelines.

These are my suggestions:

If an airline has more connecting traffic than O&D at an airport, it is a Hub.
i.e. AA @ DFW

If more of an airline's flights originate and terminate than pass through an airport, It is a focus city.
i.e. UA @ LAX

If an airport could not possibly generate O&D traffic sufficient to fill the amount of aircraft present, it is a Hub
i.e. DL @ CVG

Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW

Focus cities are often coastal or have large attractions.
i.e. MCO, LAX, BOS, JFK

Hubs can be in obscure cities with strange international non-stops.
i.e. AA with RDU-LHR, US with CLT-CDG--or something like that--


Of course, these rules are US based, because most other countries only have hubs and long-haul international traffic at a few main cities. The dynamics of other countries' route maps are almost entirely different. However, countries with multiple mega-cities like Brazil, China, India, and Mexico do have similar route structures.

Your thoughts...


User currently offlineNYC2theworld From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2237 times:



Quoting Wilax (Reply 9):
Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW

Focus cities are often coastal or have large attractions.
i.e. MCO, LAX, BOS, JFK

So how do you explain IAH, SEA, EWR (which is in the same catchment area as JFK), IAD. each one of those is on a coast and yet are extensive hubs for their respective airlines.

I think needs to be a hub airport needs to be redefined as an airport in which the schedule of flights permits a significant number of people (vs. O&D) to connect to other flights. In many instances there are numerous international flights and short hall regional fights at the airports in question.



Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2432 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2087 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
When Is A Hub Not A Hub?

When AA takes over at STL.  irked 



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2054 times:



Quoting Wilax (Reply 9):
Hub cities are generally located in a central location to the route map.
i.e. ORD, DEN, DTW

How do you factor in international gateway hub operations, such as AA @ MIA, UA @ SFO, DL @ JFK?


User currently offlineInnocuousFox From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2805 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1879 times:

Remember, folks... central to the route map is different than central to the country. For example, CLT for US was obviously a hub... but they also had no western presence prior to the merger. Same with PHX for HP... which was obviously their hub... in the center of their route map.

With regard to multi-hub airlines such as UA, it is obvious that there hubs were laid out to handle differing traffic patterns. IAD is certainly a hub in that connections up and down the east coast use it - which is vastly preferable to connecting at ORD or DEN. The same can be said for DEN but with reversed polarity.

IAH is the same situation. Most of CO's route map is southern and eastern... and also Latin America. Considering that, IAH makes perfect sense. Same with MIA given their S. American presence.



Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1730 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1873 times:



Quoting Wilax (Reply 9):
If more of an airline's flights originate and terminate than pass through an airport, It is a focus city.
i.e. UA @ LAX

LAX is considered a hub.


User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1873 times:



Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 2):
When it looks, smells and acts like PIT (US), GSO (CO), BNA (AA) RDU (AA), CMH (HP), MCI (EA) - the list is endless.

Sadly, there are apparently rumours that PHX will be joining those ranks (at least on the US side). Not that I am at all sad over US' contraction; but, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be rushing to pick up their slack and the north side of T4 will be somewhat of a ghost town. Hoping for the best.  pray 


AirStairs


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6748 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1763 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
I don't get it. The only real difference I can see sitting at the gate is that they don't "bank" arrival and departure times. What am I overlooking?

Well, the lack of arrival & departure "banks" is indeed one difference. Another one (in the case of WN) is that they typically don't operate flights to and from their large cities with very little local demand; for example, routes flown by other carriers like PHX-TUS, PHL-BWI, LAX-SAN, etc. (There are a handful of exceptions like RSW-MCO and ORF-BWI.) Their marketing is generally aimed at promoting demand for their non-stop flights, and they almost always price individual segments for less than the connections made by combining segments.

Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
WN is always saying they are avoiding the costs of hubs.

Well, yes they are. Take PHX as an example. Southwest leases 24 gates at PHX and handled 12.35 million passengers there from March 2007 to April 2008 -- or about 515,000 annual passengers per gate. Now, US Airways plus Mesa leases roughly 50 gates and had about 17.68 million passengers in the same period -- or 354,000 annual passengers per gate. They have to have staff on hand to support the highest-traffic periods (arrival/departure banks) as well as all the supporting ground equipment. Southwest's schedule is more evenly spread out throughout the day. So Southwest is close to 50% more efficient with their resources on the ground at PHX. Not scheduling for arrival/departure banks also helps to minimize the amount of time aircraft sit on the ground at outstations.

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 7):
AA still calls Chicago a hub despite the fact that AA "debanked" the schedule there and at DFW. Apparently spreading flight schedules made for some longer layovers but fewer ATC delays. Supposedly.

And it helps reduce costs by reducing the number of staff that need to be on hand at any given time. You don't have rampers sitting in the break room waiting for the next bank.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Is 'Hub-and-Spoke' Dead? posted Mon Jun 11 2007 20:08:39 by ChrisNH
777 Vrs 747 When Is The 777 Just Not Enough? posted Thu Nov 23 2006 02:55:54 by JAM747
Why Is JFK Not A DL Hub? posted Fri Jun 17 2005 01:05:40 by PanAm747
Why Is Manila Not A Major Hub posted Sun Mar 17 2002 05:31:33 by Ibizajet A330
When Is The New Dubai Airport Opening? posted Thu May 22 2008 18:03:20 by MXA318
AQ 738, When Is It Going Back? posted Wed Apr 9 2008 17:10:40 by AAH732UAL
When Is The DOT Expected To Decide On LAX-SJD posted Fri Apr 4 2008 18:29:06 by Juventus
Where/when Is This Incident? posted Wed Mar 5 2008 07:05:12 by Chase
When Is Condor Going To Change The 767? posted Sat Feb 9 2008 19:14:02 by Plairbus
When Is The Buyer Of AZ Known? posted Tue Dec 4 2007 05:11:33 by Beaucaire