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CO CLE Hub In Decline?  
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

I just got back from a trip to CLE. I was on WN and got to the airport with almost two hours to kill. The CO facilities appeared really underused. Even when a bank of flights appeared to be passing through a lot of gates were left empty. The facilities themselves were rather nice. The midfield concourse was particularly pleasant. The ops looked to be heavily dominated by XE. If you love junglejets this is your place! To me it looked like CO was squatting on gates to keep others out. Does anybody have any insight into what CO is up to in CLE?

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6197 times:
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What day was it? I do know that Tuesday, Wednesday and Saturday CO has a noticeable decline in flights.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

It was on Monday. between 11 and 2

User currently offlineCAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6042 times:

I noticed when I had a 3 hour connection in CLE that CO flights will surge for an hour-and-a-half or so, and then disappear...Planes don't make money on the ground.


1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5907 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Reply 2):
It was on Monday. between 11 and 2

Between 11 and 2 on Monday, you have one bank, between 12 and 1. There's another bank that leaves about 10:30am, and another at around 3pm.

CO is cutting 24 cities out of the CLE schedule on Sept 3, as part of the overall CO cutback. I have heard local management is trying to crunch some numbers to get a few of them reinstated, but that's just a rumor. CO will be adding 3 EAS cities in September, and 2 in October.

There are also a lot of layoffs here that will occur beginning Sept 3.

Quoting CAL764 (Reply 3):
I noticed when I had a 3 hour connection in CLE that CO flights will surge for an hour-and-a-half or so, and then disappear...Planes don't make money on the ground.

You'll notice that before/after the surge on the banks, there are almost no planes on the ground. CLE still has a traditional hub system, meaning solid "banks" of flights, then downtime. EWR and IAH use the "rolling hub" system, where there's always activity. But CLE hasn't gone to that. There's been talk that eventually CLE will.

But when you have traditional banks, you have a bunch of arrivals, say, within a 45-minute period, then a bunch of departures within another 45 minute period, then no activity for a while.

When I come into work about 1315 each day, there's hardly any flights on the gates, because the noon/1pm bank has left, and the 1415 to 1500 arrivals are on their way.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5907 times:

[I'm an idiot, I thought I flew out of CLE on Monday so my observations were relevent... it was actually Tuesday (515 CLE-LAX at 12:45), which also seemed extraordinarially dead, even for CLE]

Lincoln

[Edited 2008-07-10 14:58:25]


CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5831 times:

I have always known CLE to be a substantial size less of a CO hub than EWR or IAH. Even for CO that only has two hub cities, they really do not focus on CLE that much at all.


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineCOalways From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5823 times:

I think every Airline has a Hub that just kinda the red headed step child. CO its CLE, DL its CVG & SLC, US its PIT, AA its STL, NW its MEM and u know the list goes on and on

User currently offlineElBandGeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5783 times:

Maybe they're just setting up for a quick pull out when UA goes under and they take over ORD  sarcastic 

[/sarcasm].....although you never know

It probably does just look like its declining since it was smaller than EWR and IAH to begin with


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9211 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5647 times:



Quoting COalways (Reply 7):
I think every Airline has a Hub that just kinda the red headed step child.



Quoting COalways (Reply 7):
US its PIT

I think that would be LAS now. PIT is soon to be almost nonexistent with, from what I heard, 30 or so daily flights now... They just lost MDT service and reduced service to many other cities across the board...

Regarding CO's presence at CLE, it may be a small hub, but at roughly 250 flights or so, that's nothing too small. At least it's a hub with flights to Europe. PIT had about 250 flights when it was dehubbed by US. With the dehubbing, PIT lost its 3 flights to Europe; now it has no intercontinental flights. CLE should be fortunate for having what it still has IMO. Hopefully they won't see too much in the way of cuts, but...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5513 times:

Its obvious that the CLE airport authority and city spent good money to make a pretty decent facility. It's a pity that it will be a while before CO rebuilds the operation or more likely somebody else gives it a try.

User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5472 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Reply 10):
Its obvious that the CLE airport authority and city spent good money to make a pretty decent facility. It's a pity that it will be a while before CO rebuilds the operation or more likely somebody else gives it a try.

A lot of work still needs to be done at CLE. It's still a facility 10 years behind the time. I still think when the new Convention Center is built, and it probably will by mid next decade, the IX Center should go, and CLE should build a very modern terminal on that site. It doesn't have to be huge, obviously, but a spacious, modern, open facility would be nice.

As for CO, I don't see us going anywhere for quite a while. We have a 10-year lease just signed last year, and if the oil prices could just stablalize, and go down a bit, CLE will be fine.
No one else is going in there to open a hub any time soon.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5432 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Reply 10):
Its obvious that the CLE airport authority and city spent good money to make a pretty decent facility. It's a pity that it will be a while before CO rebuilds the operation or more likely somebody else gives it a try.

Are you CRAZY? Maybe I'm suffering from "Grass is greener" syndrome because I live there, but the only worse airport/terminal I can think of is T6 at LAX.

- They've completely lost control of the PA (I thought the random woman announcing "C..L..E..Going Places" was bad enough, now they've added some dude screaming "C...L...E...Baaaby!" in addition to the announcements in the sterile area about picing up a taxi and not soliciting a ride. (I'll save my how-could-the-convention-and-visitors-bureau not be raising a stink about the "Going someplace important? So are we!"/"Going someplace [insert adjective here]? So are we!" ad campaign...which implies that Cleveland is neither fun, beautiful, or important)

- The holdrooms are way undersized on the C concourse and on D it's kind of hard to tell where one gate ends and another begins.

- The food concessions on C and D vary from sub-par to horrid and with the exception of the BK there's not a whole lot of seating either. (There was a cluster between A and B that was almosst good, but I haven't been that far over since I was working on a project in the terminal a couple years ago)

- Very little in the way of AC power -- on Tuesday, I was litterally sitting on the floor under a stainless steel counter across from C5 because that was the nearest/only outlet I could find to get work done before my flight

- "Interesting" architecture throughout, including exposed aggregate in the NW gates and a random stairway to nowhere (that I'm always tempted to go down) in the C rotunda.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
It's still a facility 10 years behind the time

Falcon, I think you're beeing a little too generous there. D, maybe, but C feels like time froze 20 years ago... A and B were, last time I was down there, just a little depressing.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 11):
As for CO, I don't see us going anywhere for quite a while. We have a 10-year lease just signed last year, and if the oil prices could just stablalize, and go down a bit, CLE will be fine.
No one else is going in there to open a hub any time soon.

 checkmark  There's no way any other airline is going to build a significant presence in Cleveland as long as CO is here...and if CO goes away, I still don't think a new carrier would swarm in, especially in the current market.

CLE has a strong contingent of very loyal COers... When I'm flying anywhere [except Northern Michigan] I go to Continental.com, price/book at Continental.com (frequently at full fare) and don't look anywhere else -- a lot of friends and coworkers are the same way. It's an alrine that has treated us well (both service frequency and quality of service/employees), and we return the favor

And it's not like CLE is hurting for gates, either... If a new entrant wanted to come in it seems to me that there are plenty of options..

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5282 times:



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 12):
- "Interesting" architecture throughout, including exposed aggregate in the NW gates and a random stairway to nowhere (that I'm always tempted to go down) in the C rotunda.

Thsoe stairs used to go down to work areas below the Rotunda, in the day when the rotunda was literally "the banjo", of 6 gates. They were sealed off years ago.


User currently offlineNcflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5208 times:

Thank you, Lincoln. CLE is a dump, still captive to it's 1950s bones. Narrow concourses, low ceilings, duct tape is a commonly used accessory (though not as bad as it used to be), restrooms are puny, poorly cleaned, and smell horrific, too much use of carpet rather than terazo, which is much more durable, etc., etc.. D is acceptable but for such a small airport the walking distances in Cleveland are poor. I don't think local leaders embrace how bad CLE is.

User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 49
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5189 times:
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Having grown up in MI and having DTW as my airport before relocating to CLE let me just say this. Cleveland might not be the most modern though it sure as hell beat the old DTW any day of the week. Also lets be thankful that it is not the white elephant that PIT is, build it and they will come.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineEnilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7195 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5183 times:



Quoting ORDagent (Thread starter):
The CO facilities appeared really underused.

Take a visit to any hub this September and enjoy the same scene.


User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5155 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 15):
Cleveland might not be the most modern though it sure as hell beat the old DTW any day of the week

I agrree with you in principle, but... DTW's new/NW terminal is one of my favorite "large" airport terminals and the L.C. Smith Terminal was (as of 2003 or so, last time I was in that terminal) had a kind of cool retro vibe to it because it seemed like hardly anything had been done in terms of modernization/renovated...Not that I would want to spend a ton of time there nor woud I it be sutable for a hub airline, but it was kind of cool looking at the history of aviation

CLE on the other hand looks like someone made a half-assed attempt to modernize the terminal -- too ashamed of what it was but not really interested in doing what it would tke to turn it into what it should be.

Though I have heard rumblings about terminal construction work at CLE and on Tuesday a guy walked past me with a roll of blueprints labeled "Concourse C" so I can cross my fingers...

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlinePITops From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5077 times:



Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 15):
Also lets be thankful that it is not the white elephant that PIT is, build it and they will come.

That's more like build it for them, using their designs, then watch them pull their hub leaving a huge empty terminal unused.



Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1208 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4964 times:

BTW,

Does anyone else notice the very strange PA announcements in CLE? The voice is some other worldly women with a very odd cadence. It's almost funny it's so weird.

Is this a computer generated voice or is there actually some real person speaking?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5441 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4934 times:



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 14):
restrooms are puny, poorly cleaned, and smell horrific,

This is to keep Senator Craig away. And very successful it has been, too.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineDelta767 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4783 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):

Any thoughts on what those cities might be if they did decide to reinstate some? Im hoping GSO can be spared the axe if possible!


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4702 times:



Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 9):
With the dehubbing, PIT lost its 3 flights to Europe; now it has no intercontinental flights.

Actually, CDG was dropped in October 2002, long before PIT was dehubbed.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4532 times:



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 17):
CLE on the other hand looks like someone made a half-assed attempt to modernize the terminal

At least they painted over the puke-green color that was on some of the doors.  Yeah sure

Quoting Delta767 (Reply 21):
Any thoughts on what those cities might be if they did decide to reinstate some? Im hoping GSO can be spared the axe if possible!

I never understood why 3 GSO flights were put in to begin with. If it ever comes back, I think a DH2 should be put on it. It certainly doesn't warrent 3 50-seat RJ's a day.

The ones that have been talked about the most were SAV, CHS, OMA, TUL, LIT. They all semed to do pretty well. Also ORF, AUS and SAT. Those are just rumors, however.


User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 677 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4490 times:



Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 14):
CLE is a dump, still captive to it's 1950's bones.

I have photos in my family archives of the Cleveland Hopkins terminal long ago when a huge railroad type arrival/departure sign adorned an entire north wall of the central terminal building. Where did that idea come from, the lower bowels of the Terminal Tower in the days of the New York Central? On the sign are arrival and departure announcements of Capital Airlines from Washington and United Airlines from Chicago Midway. There was also a small news stand next to a modest looking restaurant within the central terminal area.

Also note Ncflyer: the travelers in the ancient photos looked much happier back then. The Viscount 700s and DC-6Bs may have been lower and slower but there were no TSA hassles either.


25 Greenair727 : Hey Highflier--If its not too much trouble, could you scan and post the photos? It'd be great to see them!
26 Lincoln : As far as I know, for better or worse, all announcements are spoken by humans; some are live, with the majority of the really annoying ones being rec
27 Xms3200 : Actually, the guy that makes the P.A announcements is of Nigerian descent with a heavy accent and does a pretty good job of butchering names and overa
28 Runway23 : Out of interest, do you know how badly YOW was doing?
29 Steeler83 : Oh yeah, I seem to remember CDG being rather pitiful for US even with the Hub... I would guess that LGW was in the middle, with FRA being the stronge
30 Falcon84 : When it first came out, it was damn near empty. It has done a lot better as 2008 went along. It's not like OMA that is sold out about 90% of the time
31 Post contains links 102IAHexpress : http://www.census.gov/popest/cities/tables/SUB-EST2007-03.xls I was once more optimistic about CO CLE hub, but now I'm not so sure. The 2007 Census nu
32 CLE757 : This might be true for the city of Cleveland, but I think the suburbs support most of CO's CLE traffic.
33 Luv2fly : I think you are 100% correct.
34 102IAHexpress : Well if so, that would be bad news for CLE because back in March, the Census Bureau reported that between 2000 and 2007, Cuyahoga County lost more pe
35 Post contains links Greenair727 : Metro Cleveland is no different than almost anywhere in America, where people are moving further and further out from core cities and as a result, ce
36 CO767FA : You know that doesn't carry any weight with a carrier like CO - I've mentioned this before - DEN is a prime example; we held long term leases on the
37 Lincoln : Yeah, the voice sounds familiar... I want to say Ray Charles, but honestly I don't care who it is, I just want it to stop. Maybe they're doing it to
38 Falcon84 : There are still 4.1 million people within a 16-county area that uses Hopkins, and that's still substantial. Cleveland is smaller-it used to be around
39 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : no way is slc the red headed step child. Delta for years is continually adding flights all over. It also has the second most mainline flights of any
40 Joeljack : I sure hope OMA-CLE sticks around. Extremely full flights so far, I wonder about yields. AA is dropping 1xER4 on OMA-ORD and NW is significantly redu
41 FalconBird : Obviously I haven't read that much on Continental in recent months, albeit I knew they were going to have big cuts coming soon, but what cities are af
42 Luv2fly : All cuts were flown on the regional jets, except for SAN, which was the only mainline flight cut
43 Falcon84 : Not true. IAD, DTW, TOL, CVG, AVP, JFK, CRW. All were flown with the Dash-2's by CommutAir.
44 Greenair727 : Anyone know how are the loads on CLE-LGW and -CDG are doing?
45 CLE757 : Very good
46 Chrisjake : ahhh yes, i remember that main terminal building. the huge "scoreboard" style arrival/departure info, the shiny tile floor, the new model autos rotat
47 Typhaerion : Ironically here in TUL there is still a sign announcing CO's new non-stop service to CLE. I am wondering if the flight will dissappear before the bann
48 DualQual : I take it you have not had the pot roast sandwich or chicken florentine sandwich from BanJoe's which is in the Banjo of C across from C-22. The rest
49 Falcon84 : That Pot Roast sandwich is absolutely AWESOME. Pot Roast, with cole slaw on top, on ciabata bread. And it's huge. I have gotten it twice. Both times,
50 ADXMatt : What I don't understand is the heirarchy in the reservation system. Example... 20JUL ORD-CDG 2p ORD-CLE-CDG comes up as the 3rd option even though the
51 DualQual : I actually prefer it without the cheese on it. That sandwich alone makes me wish I had more CLE transits.
52 Lincoln : That is really funky. I was going to try to tell you that it was easily explainable by factoring in taxes or fare class or time of day or...something
53 Dutchflyboi : Just did it online with a 2pm departure out of ORD and the CLE connection shows up first on Continental.com
54 Boeing727 : CO First Officer told me the other day (while getting a jumpseat to RDU) that the LGW flight had only 60 people on board. Hopefully only an off day fo
55 Falcon84 : Depends on how many paid fares were in B/F to see how good/bad it did. If 10 of those 60 people were B/F fares, then the flight made money. Or, I sho
56 Lincoln : And the other question is "Is there any cargo"? -- I honestly don't know what kind of consistant cargo demand there would be CLE-LON or LON-CLE, but
57 MasseyBrown : Justifications for the runway extension have reported that the CLE region originates about 100 tons of international air cargo a day; most of it gets
58 Ncflyer : Are seat maps an even worse proxy for flight bookings for international-- I know many on this forum caution against using seat maps for such informat
59 MasseyBrown : Provisional June traffic numbers were posted on July 14th by the British CAA. They indicate the CLE-LGW flight ran around 118 pax average or about a
60 ContnlEliteCMH : I loved CLE. It's not one of the best-looking airports around, but it was always great for transferring. It was by far my favorite. Plus, one holiday
61 RJdxer : I remember that, and the shoe shine stand just beneath it to the right. There is a bar there now. Yep, I also remember the Sohio gas station that was
62 Post contains links Chrisjake : RJdxer, i think you'll appreciate this old photo: http://www.opshots.net/gallery2/index.php?page=photos&id=5054
63 MasseyBrown : The data I saw indicated that the 100 tons of international cargo was generated daily by businesses in the Cleveland area; I don't believe it counted
64 ORDagent : Absolutely. I'm in Chicago. ORD can be a pain. However MDW can be much better. I noticed that! I could understand the gentleman but people that don't
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