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USair Vs. USair Pilots On Fuel  
User currently offlineMercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1303 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6391 times:

Lisa Treon
7/15/2008
US Airline Pilots Association (USAPA) President Stephen Bradford, on behalf of the union, has released a memorandum to the US Airways pilots which advised them of management’s decision to initiate what the pilots consider discipline in the form of unapproved “training.”
USAPA said this “training” is to be given to the airline’s most senior captains who, according to the pilot union, have been singled out for exercising their judgment on determining fuel loads for their flights. The “training” includes simulator instruction which, if not successfully completed, could subject the pilot to a loss of his or her license. The union said in its view, the threat is clear: adding fuel could expose a pilot to career-ending license action.
USAPA spokesman Capt. James Ray said in most cases the senior captains were selected for adding what equates to approximately 10 to 15 minutes of additional arrival fuel on transoceanic flights. Under the applicable standards of the Federal Aviation Administration, the adequacy of fuel loads is considered a critical safety determination that is left to the captain’s discretion.
The memorandum to the pilots was sent after the board of pilot representatives for the US Airline Pilots Association conducted a meeting on the matter. The memorandum stated, “Captain’s authority and the right to make decisions based on good, sound judgment should never be subjected to the winds of economics.”
“Making decisions on whether or not to hand out peanuts is one thing; mandating fuel loads that our captains are uncomfortable with is another,” Bradford said. “US Airways pilots are committed to exercising their ‘Captain’s Authority,’ as granted by the Federal Aviation Administration and will always ensure a fuel load that will safely fly our passengers to their destination, with all the reserves necessary to handle any contingencies related to the flight.”

78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6372 times:



Quoting Mercure1 (Thread starter):
“Captain’s authority and the right to make decisions based on good, sound judgment should never be subjected to the winds of economics.”
“Making decisions on whether or not to hand out peanuts is one thing; mandating fuel loads that our captains are uncomfortable with is another,” Bradford said. “US Airways pilots are committed to exercising their ‘Captain’s Authority,’ as granted by the Federal Aviation Administration and will always ensure a fuel load that will safely fly our passengers to their destination, with all the reserves necessary to handle any contingencies related to the flight.”

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User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1249 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6346 times:

I wonder if the west pilots also got this "memorandum," or if only the easties were the ones to have gotten it...


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6330 times:

I wouldn't trust anything the USAPA says. Didn't the USAPA just get their lawsuit against the West pilots thrown out of court?


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22726 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6317 times:



Quoting Mercure1 (Thread starter):
“Making decisions on whether or not to hand out peanuts is one thing; mandating fuel loads that our captains are uncomfortable with is another,” Bradford said.

If comfort=safety, then I agree with this statement.

If comfort=15 minutes beyond what could possibly be required for the safe completion of the flight, then it's a harder question...



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2084 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6079 times:

Why would US management want to antagonize this group any more? The Parker apologists on this forum want to give a pass to Dougie and his team with regard to the pilots but this is inexcusable from both a safety standpoint as well as employee-managemnt relations. Maybe, in a misguided attempt, US management is trying to redirect the pilot's hatred for each other and focus it on management.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5864 times:



Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 5):
The Parker apologists on this forum want to give a pass to Dougie and his team with regard to the pilots but this is inexcusable from both a safety standpoint as well as employee-managemnt relations.

Do you have any evidence other than what the USAPA is saying?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDw747400 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1257 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5790 times:



Quoting Mercure1 (Thread starter):
The “training” includes simulator instruction which, if not successfully completed, could subject the pilot to a loss of his or her license.

Could someone explain this? I did not think the airline itself could initiate certificate action, and if the the training is no required by the opspecs I don't see why the FAA would get involved.



CFI--Certfied Freakin Idiot
User currently offlineBcoz From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 368 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

The USAPA took out a full page ad in today's USA Today on the subject. It is on page 5A.

Quoting Dw747400 (Reply 7):
Could someone explain this? I did not think the airline itself could initiate certificate action, and if the the training is no required by the opspecs I don't see why the FAA would get involved.

The ad reads: "could result in the termination of their careers."

bcoz


User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 5679 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't trust anything the USAPA says. Didn't the USAPA just get their lawsuit against the West pilots thrown out of court?

What does the lawsuit have to do with this? Again, another anti-ALPA/USAPA/APA injection to hijack the thread.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5627 times:



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 9):
What does the lawsuit have to do with this?

They're going down in flames and need to keep the media attention on big bad management rather than their failing campaign to screw their own pilot brethren



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineImapilotaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5551 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 10):
They're going down in flames and need to keep the media attention on big bad management rather than their failing campaign to screw their own pilot brethren

Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

If you are a pilot and disgruntled, one of the few ways you can "screw" management is taking your "captain's discretion" and add on some extra fuel to increase expenses. Remember, this is a small group of the most senior "trans-oceanic" captains, which means, East based pilots who are completely pissed about the integration of Seniority, as these were the guys who would have been at the absolute top of the seniority list under the "East" proposal.

Yes it is their authority to be able to determine final fuel levels for a flight, but US Airways management isnt stupid. If you notice a trend that has a small group of Sr East pilots adding extra fuel over what is required and what the Dispatcher has determined is adequate per FARs and route planning for that day, you take action. Again, the Dispatcher's career, livelihood and freedom (if negligent, criminal charges can be brought against them) is on the line just like the Pilots, and when the pilot is "adding fuel for the sake of adding fuel", then I can see where US has a gripe.


User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5532 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't trust anything the USAPA says. Didn't the USAPA just get their lawsuit against the West pilots thrown out of court?

As Phil accurately pointed out, this is a non sequitur. The two have no logical links. Union bashing works best when it isn't based exclusively on personal bias or fallacious red herrings.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5517 times:



Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 11):
pissed about the integration of Seniority,

You forgot to capitalize "Pissed," lol.

Quoting Imapilotaz (Reply 11):
If you notice a trend that has a small group of Sr East pilots adding extra fuel over what is required and what the Dispatcher has determined is adequate per FARs and route planning for that day, you take action. Again, the Dispatcher's career, livelihood and freedom (if negligent, criminal charges can be brought against them) is on the line just like the Pilots, and when the pilot is "adding fuel for the sake of adding fuel", then I can see where US has a gripe.

Of course. If the pilot is not aware how FARs are calculated, maybe he or she does need re-training, or statistical training. It is possible to be just flat wrong, even if a person is "uncomfortable." The solution to that is training. They are playing God here, its just a pissing match, move along folks. Both sides are in favor of complete and total safety. So the argument is about something else.

The funny part is, most of US's aircraft don't have the ABILITY to carry extra fuel because they are cargo restricted anyhow.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
As Phil accurately pointed out, this is a non sequitur. The two have no logical links. Union bashing works best when it isn't based exclusively on personal bias or fallacious red herrings.

The same works for management bashing, which is most likely what USAPA is doing here, unless there is an unbiased third party that can verify their claims. Given their track record, I'd bet a dollar it's just mud slinging. If you can't see the connection, you're not paying attention. What do the pilots want? A contract, and who do they think will give it to them? Management. If they put pressure on management they think they'll get their way faster. What's the easiest way to pressure management? Drag them through the mud and accuse them of running an "unsafe" airline.

[Edited 2008-07-16 10:01:31]


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5466 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
As Phil accurately pointed out, this is a non sequitur. The two have no logical links. Union bashing works best when it isn't based exclusively on personal bias or fallacious red herrings.

The same works for management bashing, which is most likely what USAPA is doing here, unless there is an unbiased third party that can verify their claims. Given their track record, I'd bet a dollar it's just mud slinging. If you can't see the connection, you're not paying attention. What do the pilots want? A contract, and who do they think will give it to them? Management. If they put pressure on management they think they'll get their way faster. What's the easiest way to pressure management? Drag them through the mud and accuse them of running an "unsafe" airline.

I've been paying attention to and positively contributing to this industry in both line operational and management jobs since you were in grade school. If you actually read my response you will see that I said nothing either positive or negative about management. I do not know, nor did I claim to, the nature of this "training." I am confident that some training of this type is happening or US management would simply say that the assertions by USPA are totally false, and that no training of this nature is occurring. So far they either haven't, or most likely, can't say that.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5348 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 15):
I am confident that some training of this type is happening or US management would simply say that the assertions by USPA are totally false, and that no training of this nature is occurring. So far they either haven't, or most likely, can't say that.

When was the last time you saw management lower themselves to a PR war with their own union?



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinePGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2821 posts, RR: 45
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5227 times:



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 15):
I am confident that some training of this type is happening or US management would simply say that the assertions by USPA are totally false, and that no training of this nature is occurring. So far they either haven't, or most likely, can't say that.

When was the last time you saw management lower themselves to a PR war with their own union?

You are the one alleging a PR war in your non sequitur reply 3; I have been completely neutral on management. Please show me where I said that management is engaging in a PR war with their own union. Oh, that's right, you can't.

What I said was that if the allegations USPA have levied are demonstrably false, US management would certainly and rightly say so.


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8406 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5173 times:



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 17):
What I said was that if the allegations USPA have levied are demonstrably false, US management would certainly and rightly say so.

The allegations are probably true. They are also completely ok and normal.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5160 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 2):
I wonder if the west pilots also got this "memorandum," or if only the easties were the ones to have gotten it...

Hell, I wonder if the dispatchers at east/west got anything--it's not like they have anything to do with calculating fuel loads, right?  Yeah sure


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17348 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5030 times:



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 20):
USAPA is evil, but I think there's something to this complaint.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 19):
I wonder if the dispatchers at east/west got anything

What are the dispatchers saying? Too little fuel? Too much?

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 20):
Dispatch generally hits the nail on the head as far as fuel burn, but they can tend to not see the big picture. You can't depend on being number one for the runway and not sitting on a taxiway burning the APU for two hours while a thunderstorm passes, then turning an engine as the 50+ aircraft ahead of you takeoff needing 20 miles in trail making for one takeoff every 4 minutes (read another 3 hours in line).

Dispatchers deal with a heck of a lot more flights than pilots do on a daily basis, so I'd bet they *do* count on sitting on taxiways as a well as any number of things you may never even consider.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4977 times:

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 20):
I see what you're getting at. Dispatch generally hits the nail on the head as far as fuel burn, but they can tend to not see the big picture. You can't depend on being number one for the runway and not sitting on a taxiway burning the APU for two hours while a thunderstorm passes, then turning an engine as the 50+ aircraft ahead of you takeoff needing 20 miles in trail making for one takeoff every 4 minutes (read another 3 hours in line).

Dispatch also can't count on a thunderstorm not setting up shop over DITCH intersection and that departure route closing, necessitating a reroute over Woodstown, then down to SBY before turning northeast towards your European destination. The list of things like that goes on...

Bottom line is when I'm the captain of an aircraft, I'm getting paid to have the final decision in whether the flight goes, stays, takes more fuel, etc. If in my experience more fuel is going to be needed to complete a flight, more fuel WILL be put on the airplane. If the company doesn't like it, they can find another captain for that flight.

At the risk of countering one generalization with another and moving the thread off-topic, allow me to briefly state that many crews likewise don't seem to have the "big picture" on things. Now before I get 48,892 pilot replies relating their individual experiences that "disprove" my statement, let me assure you and the other pilots out there that we share more in common with you than we have differences. If pilots ever spent any meaningful time in a Dispatch office (like we do to your "office" on required annual jumpseat rides), pilots might see some of the things that we see. I'm not talking about 10-15 minute "fly-by" visits ("Oh, look at the neat computers"), I'm talking about sitting with a dispatcher, working the desk, for a few hours. There's much each can actually learn from each other should they just start to communicate with one another, rather than make assumptions.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
What are the dispatchers saying? Too little fuel? Too much?

That's precisely what I was wondering...

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Dispatchers deal with a heck of a lot more flights than pilots do on a daily basis, so I'd bet they *do* count on sitting on taxiways as a well as any number of things you may never even consider.

Absolutely....

[Edited 2008-07-16 16:07:20]

User currently offlinePHLJJS From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 417 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4959 times:

Hmm... Full page ad in a nationally circulated newspaper on the day the CEO is scheduled to appear in prime time on a nationally televised TV show. Coincidence? or Smart move by USAPA to put the boss on the hot seat about the issue?

User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 541 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4912 times:



Quoting PHLJJS (Reply 23):
Hmm... Full page ad in a nationally circulated newspaper on the day the CEO is scheduled to appear in prime time on a nationally televised TV show. Coincidence? or Smart move by USAPA to put the boss on the hot seat about the issue?

Doubtful that it will be brought up. USAPA is rarely brought up by name during TV interview only print media usually goes into depth.

All the old tricks have not worked in a long time. Poeple are rarely are moved by an informational picket.


User currently offlineN770WD From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4853 times:



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 20):
Do I decide everything will work as it's supposed to and ATC won't cause me any delays getting to my filed cruise altitude where fuel burn is lower? Will I be assigned a lower cruise altitude for traffic? Do I just put on an extra 2000 lb because shit happens? You're the captain. You decide. I know what my choice is....

The dispatcher and company are well aware of this tradeoff. Yes, less contingency (not reserve) fuel means more frequent diversions.

But to put this in perspective, on an eight hour transatlantic flight with a 767-200ER an additional 3,000 pounds of fuel adds 751 pounds of burn. 751 pounds = 112 gallons @ $4.25 per gallon = $476 per flight.

Don't load that incremental fuel burn. Say you divert one segment out of sixty (or, once a month). The cost of a diversion might reach $15,000 in fuel, handling, and missed connections. But you're still 59 * $476 = $28,000 better off.

Another illustration of how fuel cost drives different operating decisions. Old way = just load extra gas and circle if you need to. New way = minimum load to be legal and safe, and divert if you have to.


25 Pinsent : Pardon me... The captain has the final say whether the flight goes? Not to up on the FAA Dispatcher's authority, and if that's the way it works down
26 Par13del : As a ex-dispatcher let me add this to the scenario listed above. Management has decided to ward off any "actions" by pilots who want to add extra fuel
27 PHLJJS : The ad was one of the first things that Larry talked about and Parker canceled. What a spineless piece of garbage!
28 ADXMatt : I've never dispatched a Dash 8 (per your profile) but using your numbers above that would be a 3hr 48min flight from AAA-BBB would the dash hold much
29 OPNLguy : I had one sit with me for about 3 hrs recently. She got an eyefull!
30 ADXMatt : What the "bean counters" also fail to take into account is the dispatchers workload. If the dispatcher has a reasonably spread out load with good ACAR
31 Mercure1 :
32 GoBoeing : Nobody has mentioned what has apparently been going on among a few senior disgruntled captains: running the APU on all the way across the Atlantic.
33 Usair320 : I saw a message from the USAPA in todays issue of USA today. Same thing.
34 Kellmark : If they are doing that, then they get no sympathy from me. One or more bad acts by management do not justify any pilot doing that. It is not only unp
35 DashTrash : My profile is a little misleading at the moment. I don't fly the Dash anymore. At any rate, I was just picking numbers out of the air. A Dash only ho
36 OPNLguy : For DashTrash only, got an FAR cite?
37 GoAlaska : Okay... Super dumb question about to be asked by someone that does not know. Is un-burnt fuel in the tanks of the plane when it reaches it's destinati
38 OPNLguy : Not a dumb question at all. The unused fuel is still there, but not 100% of it. Depending upon the stage length of the flight, 2%-5% of it was consum
39 Par13del : GoAlaska it is not a dumb question, it just goes to show that when a hot topic item comes along, the crowd actually just goes along, welcome to the wo
40 A/c dxer : Pretty easy solution to this carry the min fuel for a month and see how many diversion there are. Everytime ATC wants to put you in a hold divert, Atc
41 Goldenshield : If I had my way, I'd have them sit in for a whole week during upgrade training. Is that sequence intentional? -------------------------------- As far
42 Flighty : ????? Including a reposition flight and cancellation of the next flight, with reaccoms? I really don't think so. But it's cheaper than crashing.
43 MaverickM11 : Which is why I believe no airline would do that, and the USAPA is full of the proverbial caca... Regardless, it should be the dispatchers that make s
44 A/c dxer : Well I wouldn't believe it either but AA is doing the same thing with their dispatchers.
45 Goldenshield : In the above example, I'm basing that on if an airport loses a runway or two during an arrival rush, or a storm sits an airport for a long time—as
46 Enilria : Typically there is an enormous excess in the amount of fuel loaded. It's not unusual to have 90 minutes of fuel onboard at landing on a 3 hour flight
47 OPNLguy : With all due respect (and I used to be a 20-something airline caterer myself--Dobbs House) this 90 minutes you're quoting is so "not unusal" that it'
48 PhilSquares : I have tried to stay on the sidelines on this issue, but I can't let some of these off the wall comments just get by. BULL! Your characterisation is
49 Eghansen : I am not really sure what the meaning of the fuss is. Suspect it is just a lot of hoorah. When I worked for Continental, the amount of fuel loaded was
50 OPNLguy : Ever hear of a dispatcher? The gauges don't need any kind of recalibration. The reason the PIC gets the fuel slip is that it has the "gallons added"
51 PhilSquares : Not quite! The load planner gets the fuel figures from Dispatch. The Dispatcher and the Captain both agree on the fuel to be loaded. If, as happens i
52 DocLightning : Good. I think that the responsibility should lie with the captain for the simple reason that the captain is also aboard the plane, so if it goes down
53 Todd727 : By Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) - The pilots union for US Airways said Wednesday the airline is pressuring pilots to use less fuel than they feel
54 Eghansen : At Continental, the load planners and dispatchers were in the same room. The Dispatchers are the supervisors of the load planners and most load plann
55 Goldenshield : What you describe is an operations agent. They are NOT dispatchers.
56 Eghansen : I am sure that the names are different at all the airlines and that they probably change over the years. At the time I worked for Continental I know
57 Goldenshield : Some people just give themselves the title, because they have the ability to talk on the radio and tell others what to do—such as the case with a c
58 Post contains links MaverickM11 : Planebuzz has a piece on it, calling exactly what it is--a bunch of jacka$$es trying to get press. http://www.planebuzz.com/
59 JayDub : There are "dispatchers" and there are Dispatchers. In the hierarchy of major hub operations...some operations agent/supervisor positions have been du
60 OPNLguy : There may havd been one at IAH, but methinks there was (then, and now) a whole slew of them at the HDQ... Dispatchers determine the fuel load, and lo
61 Eghansen : Sorry if I am rude, but you don't sound like you know anything about airlines. I worked in maintenance records at Continental as well and we willfull
62 OPNLguy : Oh, now that's a good one... And each of those 8 MD-80s has the same amount arrival fuel on the inbound aircraft? The fuel load doesn't change based
63 Dispatchguy : Wrong, he is going to fuel what is loaded on the fuel ticket, if the loads are the same, so be it. He has no capability to make his own fuel load, un
64 Flighty : I have never been inside that house, but that post also struck me as gratuitous and suspect. The only real intentional oversight I remember was Indy
65 Kellmark : Eghansen, I just have to chime in here. I am sure your jobs both in maintenance records and customer service were very important, as I have done maint
66 JayDub : Allow me to respond to this part of your post...with your own words. Directing that comment to OPNL literally made me laugh. OPNL is well respected b
67 Eghansen : Actually, they really do. We always did a full load planning procedure for the IAH-LGW flight because of cargo, weather and load factor. But for the
68 Ca2ohhp : What the heck does a station manager have to do with planned fuel loads of a flight? Yeah a lot of flight segments will have redundant (meaning almos
69 OPNLguy : We call that "tankering"..... I'll echo the words of another well-respected veteran of the industry who a couple of messages ago, and also note that
70 Dispatcher : This post confirms every assumption I've ever had about records / stores folks.
71 ADXMatt : These comments are not something that I would put on a public forum. Again... be careful what you say as the above could be considered criminal.
72 Post contains links RDUDDJI : Look at the dispatchers Union reply... Those pilots are looking pretty stupid right about now... I have to admit, I enjoy the fact that the two Unions
73 MaverickM11 : God it's so delicious I feel full
74 DualQual : I was going to leave this one alone but a couple of things, Number one I am glad that certain people no longer represent the mindset of the current di
75 A/c dxer : No offense from me I take the pilots word on the ground more than anything else. Also this thread has me cracking up with certain peoples perception o
76 Ca2ohhp : I still can't get over the "Station Managers tweak fuel loads" statement. 12 years between DL, UA, HP and US and I've NEVER seen that. Nor have I wit
77 JayDub : Hilarity indeed.
78 OPNLguy : No offense here either. Oh, tell me about it... I know Don, and he's a first-rate guy, and I admire him all the more for getting out in front of it a
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