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Boeing Actively Considering 2nd 787 Line.  
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11971 times:

Boeing actively considering 2nd 787 production line to ease delivery delays

Excellent article to read... Hope this works out for Boeing and the 787 team.

Boeing considers 2nd 787 line?

Right now with 1 line Boeing can build 8-10 frames a month. With 2 lines I believe that as long as the supply chain can keep up without issues they can build 16-20 frames a month. I hope Boeing will be able to get this online by 2011.

Thoughts are welcome.


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11967 times:
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Fantastic read. I know AA has secured spots for 787 when they are ready to order new Boeing. If and when Boeing decides to offer the 78F, would the same lines be used for pax and cargo models?

 airplane 


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5744 posts, RR: 47
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11951 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 1):
If and when Boeing decides to offer the 78F, would the same lines be used for pax and cargo models?

More than likely, the 777F uses the same line as the passenger versions.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11892 times:

With a second line opening will Boeing look to add more 744LCF Dreamlifters?


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11872 times:
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Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):

More than likely, the 777F uses the same line as the passenger versions.

Information is appreciated Uresh.

Good luck Boeing.  yes 


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8216 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11856 times:

I would love to see a second line, but ramping up to a greater delivery rate is going to focus on the suppliers. Boeing knows where the choke points are and it will be interesting to see how they manage them, or if they bring in some secondary supplier in certain areas.

User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11517 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11844 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 1):
I know AA has secured spots for 787 when they are ready to order new Boeing.

From the first link:

"Delivery slots prior to 2019 would only be available to strategic customers such as US airlines..."

Interesting...


User currently offlineSYfan100 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 590 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11749 times:

That would be a smart move on opening a second line. That would help not having any orders on the delay list. Which would make their customers happy since then the planes they ordered would be delivered on time.

User currently offlineDL767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

In reality Boeing has to build a second line and speed up production. There backorder is massive and with fuel going higher and higher airlines are going to want their planes sooner.

Now if they do open a second line how would they move orders around? Would airlines simply place new orders on the second line? Would delivery times just be moved up for free or would they have to pay?

Another thing this could help with is a redesigned 787-3 that would be well suited for something like US markets to make LAX-JFK profitable. With high fuel prices multiple 737s just doesn't make sense, switch it to a 787-3 to carry more people and lower cost. With the A350 domestic version now Boeing should really consider offering a much better 787-3 that is truly designed for shorter domestic missions to become a true replacement for the 767-300


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11695 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 1):
If and when Boeing decides to offer the 78F, would the same lines be used for pax and cargo models?

It works that way for all the other freighters, so I don't see why the 787 would be different.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
Now if they do open a second line how would they move orders around? Would airlines simply place new orders on the second line? Would delivery times just be moved up for free or would they have to pay?

I don't think they'd move orders around at all...airlines don't order for a particular production line, they just order an airplane with a particular delivery time. Boeing is free to play around with what gets built where as long as they meet the commitment to the customer.

Tom.


User currently offlineFlyglobal From Germany, joined Mar 2008, 575 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11684 times:

I always expected this. With the current delays and with the slower ramp up they can only catchup when adding more capacity. I would say it is even a must, otherwise they would hurt business, as it is unlikely that customers may wait that long on new planes.
I doubt however that they would be ready by 2011. Its not just the line, it's the whole supply chain that needs to ramup.

My earliest bet is about 2012 starting to ramp up above 10 frames / month and for sure not in a 1 jump from 10 to 20 frames.

Further the 'line' should be designed to run another future frame as well, such as '737 new' with reasonable rebuild. That could keep flexibility within demands of airframes.

regards

Flyglobal


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11606 times:
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It makes sense. The backlog is so large that there is really no risk to the suppliers to increase their own production capacity.

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 968 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11522 times:

The article mentions that Boeing could place the second assembly line in Building 40-26 where the 767 is currently manufactured. A few months ago, it appeared that the San Antonio, TX area was a candidate for the second line as well. Has that possibility grown dim?

User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11395 times:

I think a couple of the suppliers have proven they can deliver just fine. Boeing has bought into the one that was the slowest. Much will be determined by the outcome of the rebid for the tanker project. If the order switches to Boeing and once all the protests are over then production could go to San Antonio. If the A330 bid is upheld then it makes sense to take over the 767 line.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30855 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11379 times:
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Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
The article mentions that Boeing could place the second assembly line in Building 40-26 where the 767 is currently manufactured. A few months ago, it appeared that the San Antonio, TX area was a candidate for the second line as well. Has that possibility grown dim?

If Boeing loses the KC-X RFP again, the 767 line would become available for Boeing to close and convert.


User currently offlineAlangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11330 times:

If a second line is started will this affect decision on 787-10?

User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11242 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 6):
"Delivery slots prior to 2019 would only be available to strategic customers such as US airlines..."

Joe, I've got my information from fleet managers at AA regarding their securing of very early production slots for the 87.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
In reality Boeing has to build a second line and speed up production. There backorder is massive

Agreed, 100%.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 9):
so I don't see why the 787 would be different

It's a new a/c frame, with new standards. I would attend to agree with you.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
San Antonio, TX area was a candidate for the second line as well. Has that possibility grown dim?

Wow, link to an article regarding this scenario would be appreciated. Does Boeing have a large scale facility at SAT?

 airplane 


User currently offlineUA76Heavy From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11164 times:



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
but ramping up to a greater delivery rate is going to focus on the suppliers.

Exactly. They probably have the floor space to add a second assembly line without much problem but it's useless unless suppliers are able to ramp-up as well.


User currently offlineTravelhound From Australia, joined May 2008, 919 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11131 times:

Another point not considered yet is ramp up of "Wave 2" type aircraft. They could have one line running with established production techniques and use the second line for ramp up of new processes and models.

Maybe this would eliminate some of the problems like that of Airbus and the A380. So it becomes a scenario of increasing production and minimising risk to production.


User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 11021 times:

I hope the second line would open in Long Beach - would be sad if no aircraft will come out this great and historic plant.


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKaitak744 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 2366 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 10901 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
If Boeing loses the KC-X RFP again, the 767 line would become available for Boeing to close and convert.

No need. The 747 used to run on 3 lines. It currently runs on just 2 lines, leaving one empty. This is the building which currently contains the 787 static test rig. Once 787 testing is done, this line would be completely free. (I believe it is the 3rd one from the left)


User currently offlineRheinwaldner From Switzerland, joined Jan 2008, 2222 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10772 times:

The 787 is Boeings gold mine. IMO they should ramp up another production line asap. Each available production slot can be sold for the next 10..20 years.
If you can setup one line duplicating it can not be so hard. There remains no question that has not been answered the first time.


User currently offlineIAD787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 502 posts, RR: 44
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10761 times:

Hey all, back in January I wrote a piece on the merits of San Antonio as a second production line site.

San Antonio Rising: Is Boeing Laying the Groundwork for a Second 787 Line?
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/fl...an-antonio-rising-is-boeing-l.html

"The interconnectedness of the aviation industry has often been likened to a massive global chess game. A skilled player makes a move of one piece with deliberate consideration for all the moves to follow, always mindful of the larger picture at hand.

"Boeing’s latest move across the global chess board lands in the heart of Texas at the site of the old Kelly Air Force Base in the city of San Antonio, Texas has quietly been growing as a secondary base to compliment the primary Everett 787 production line."

Onward,

AD787



Former FlightBlogger turned Wall Street Journal Aerospace Beat Reporter
User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1874 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10700 times:



Quoting DL767captain (Reply 8):
Now if they do open a second line how would they move orders around? Would airlines simply place new orders on the second line? Would delivery times just be moved up for free or would they have to pay?

More than likely Boeing would work to first ramp the production up to the original delivery schedule with existing customers. This could also mean that 787-10 is not as much in the air as Boeing announced it a few weeks ago. My take on it is that Boeing is preparing itself for acommodating additional demand for 787-10, as the A350-900 is selling quite well.

Expect the 7,900nm 787-10 to be announced at LeBourget 2009.



STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10598 times:



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
A few months ago, it appeared that the San Antonio, TX area was a candidate for the second line as well. Has that possibility grown dim?

I thought San Antonio was just going to be the site to convert the early flight test aircraft to delivery configuration...was there really a plan to put a final assembly line there?

Quoting Columba (Reply 19):
I hope the second line would open in Long Beach

I think the commercial plant in Long Beach is either gone or in the process of being gone. The C-17 line is still there, but it's going to be a going concern for several more years.

Tom.


25 Astuteman : I think making the preparations is a good idea, but I'd be surprised if Boeing commit to it fairly soon. The key issue for me isn't today's backlog,
26 Farzan : Excuse me, but should the thing not be flying before beefing up production? I mean what would happen if production capacity is increased, not cheap, a
27 Stitch : Having walked that area, I am not sure how well it is configured for an aircraft production line. However, I expect Boeing can shuffle stuff around t
28 Greg3322 : The 717 plant is still there, but closed. I haven't heard any plans for redevelopment... yet. Greg
29 KC135TopBoom : Thay would need at least four more B-747-400LCFs, adding to the three they have now. This allows one airplane OTS for heavy maintenance at any given
30 Jfk777 : Given how much Boeing's future is 787 related I would bet they will do a second line. More then 10 planes per month should be teh 2012 goal. By then A
31 N328KF : I thought they had sold it? As a note, I found that my company had recently bought some of the former MD land. The street names around our facility a
32 Gsosbee : One would think this is a no-brainer. The 787 is like a big unexplored oil formation just begging to be tapped. I believe the real question is not 2 l
33 NYC777 : That's apossiblity. Boeing needs flight test data from the -8 to optimize both the -9 and the -10. The delay in flight testing the 787-8 is really th
34 Stitch : I would not be surprised to see Boeing working on the 787-9 and 787-10 in parallel with the goal of their entering service very near together. The A35
35 NYC777 : They have a fourth LCF currently undergoing modification in Taiwan so they'll have four. I think they would need another 3 to support a second line.
36 AS739X : Greg Someone else can correct me, but I think the old 717 line building was purchased by a developer. It will become apartments (so we can have more
37 Sofianec : The only reason they are toying with this information now is to prepare the public and the airlines for further delays to the 787 program. Expect a he
38 Cloudy : In other threads we have discussed three options for Boeing to replace the 777 and compete with the A350. The options seemed to fall into one of four
39 Post contains links NYC777 : The CEO of Qatar Airways thinks it's a good idea for Boeing to start a 2nd 787 line too. Read it here.
40 Revelation : There are 27 767Fs to be built for UPS between 2009 and 2012, they can't just close the line. The 2nd link in the thread starter talks about moving t
41 Dacman : Building 80 (MD80/90/95 production) and Building 84 (DC-8/DC-10/MD11 production) are still standing along with both paint shops. The delivery center a
42 DL767captain : Yes the airlines ordered lets say a 2011 delivery time but with the second line a 2009 date is available. Would the airline be able to pay a little m
43 DfwRevolution : For now, the only 787 work in San Antonio is the conversion activities you mentioned. But this led to speculation that if Boeing were to search for a
44 SirOmega : Am I the only one who is entirely skeptical about the ability of the suppliers ability to ramp up for a second line? And the effectiveness of a second
45 Revelation : Who knows what the current reality is? Now that they've put 3 together (and the first one, several times!) maybe they realize the pieces take longer
46 Rheinbote : My understanding is that a second line wouldn't help much as the bottleneck is parts production and non-destructive inspection, not final assembly. No
47 JayinKitsap : Gee- Boeing can build 30+ 737's a month and Airbus 40 320's. It doesn't seem that difficult to make 14 of a larger plane per month as long as the ramp
48 Danny : I thought the biggest issue with 787 was the supply chain struggling to deliver. Can't see how the 2nd asembly line would help it.
49 Boeingfever777 : The customer adds that the 787 is sold out until 2017; a date which does not take into account an average 20-month delivery delay. "They aren't quotin
50 Firennice : The issue with plane #1 and with plane #4 shows the problem with one line. No flexability. For example: Plane one has problems...well it plugs up the
51 Stitch : First of all, we need to remember that Boeing wouldn't be adding a second line tomorrow. Most likely it would kick-in around 2012 to support 787-9 and
52 Tdscanuck : If they started on a second line today, it wouldn't be running for a few years. It had better be flying by then. Nope. They are. I think the quote wa
53 BALHRWWCC : Does anyone know exactly how many of each varient is ordered? When was the first 787-9 and 10 originally meant to rollout? I was just thinking that th
54 Travelhound : The supplier situation probably isn't as bad as the current situation suggests. At present these guys just aren't making parts for the 787, they are
55 Travelhound : The supplier situation probably isn't as bad as the current situation suggests. At present these guys just aren't making parts for the 787, they are
56 Stitch : The 787-9 is now planned to EIS in 2012. I figure a 787-10 will EIS within twelve months of that, if not sooner. Some 787-9 sales will likely morph i
57 Tdscanuck : Currently: 43 787-3 645 787-8 208 787-9 Tom.
58 AutoThrust : I don't think its so easy even its well planned. There can always be a problem at a key supplier which can stop the whole supply chain. Btw, some peo
59 Rheinwaldner : I think that "only" widens to the majority of all airlines cosidering the unconstrained conditions. If an airline says: "Dear Boeing we got also a ve
60 Danny : Completely unrealistic, -10 if ever buit will not come until late in next decade.
61 Stitch : Why? It will be is a 6m stretch of a 787-9 fuselage. Boeing can do that in the sleep and it makes the most sense to do it while doing final definitio
62 Danny : The customers widely rejected "the stretch" -10. They want -10 with range close to -9 which will take much more design work. I don't see how Boeing t
63 Jacobin777 : That's completely counter to what Boeing management, as well as many carriers have stated.
64 JayinKitsap : I think $140/bbl oil changes a lot of considerations. If a 6m stretch provides better CASM and works well on 6,000 to 6,500 mile legs it should be a
65 Stitch : I'd debate "widely rejected" since I have not seen cascades of topics of airlines publicly rejecting the plane (and I know many people troll news sit
66 Pnwtraveler : As someone from AA aluded to recently, don't forget Boeing is holding slots for open for some big customers. So you need to add those to the equation
67 Post contains links Revelation : From Boeing targets two-tier response to Airbus A350-1000 threat: So ILFC, BA, EK seem to want Boeing to offer something in the 787-10 market soon. A
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