Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Chances Of Machinists' Strike At Boeing?  
User currently onlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2511 posts, RR: 7
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

After reading this article in the Seattle PI today:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/371063_machinists17.html
I would say chances are high. There's some pretty tough talk from the union chiefs and the membership voted 99% in favor of authorizing a strike. Even the slogan "this time is our time" smacks of a threat. My opinion is that the unions figure they have management over a barrel this time because of all the program delays on the 787, the huge order backlog on several models and the new launches on the 77F and 748. What do you think? I am especially interested in the view of those at Boeing

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12503 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3114 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Boeing has been raking in the orders and the money, it's fairly obvious the union was going to expect a very healthy deal this time round. It really shouldn't come as much of a surprise to Boeing.


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

The IAM strikes every time that their contract is up. This is a normal occurrence; sometimes it lasts a few days, sometimes longer. Either way the union feels like this is something they need to do to make a point. Sometimes the engineers (SPEEA) go on strike too, but not as often. Let's not get started on unions...

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3066 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I imagine they will ask for the moon and the stars, settle for the moon, and then wonder why Boeing outsources production of the 737RS and 777RS.

It's...ironic...that they claim the 787 is so late because of unskilled outsourcing labor, but then demand that if Boeing doesn't pay more to the skilled in-sourced labor they will make the rest of the families late...


User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3056 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
that they claim the 787 is so late because of unskilled outsourcing labor,

Well, i mean look what happened a few weeks ago in SC at Vought with the mechanic installing the wrong fastener.... Dislcaimer: I'm not in a union nor am i on the side of IAM (i'll claim neutrality). I can see the argument about the unskilled outsourced labor, but their argument IS ironic.

And let's get this out there, just to be sure. Mechanics that work for Boeing are in a different "class" than those workers that, say, put cars together, for example (i'm not ranking, i'm just saying it's different). Boeing mechanics in seattle get upwards of $20-$25 an hour, and highly skilled labor is required to put an aircraft together. These guys are great and do such a great job interpreting some of the crap that engineering releases (i know, because i've seen crap released to manufacturing...). These guys deserve a lot, but i hate the greediness, especially when they know their jobs are safe in the current state of the economy...


User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3050 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 4):
Well, i mean look what happened a few weeks ago in SC at Vought with the mechanic installing the wrong fastener.... Dislcaimer: I'm not in a union nor am i on the side of IAM (i'll claim neutrality). I can see the argument about the unskilled outsourced labor, but their argument IS ironic.

it was reported that the person at fault for the fastener mishap was, in fact, an experienced aviation tech or mechanic. But, of course, a union member has NEVER made a mistake like that, right?


User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3040 times:



Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 5):
it was reported that the person at fault for the fastener mishap was, in fact, an experienced aviation tech or mechanic.

You definitely could be right, though, would Vought say "we pulled someone off the street to put together these advanced technology fuselage barrels, and he had no idea what he was doing." Many of the partners are in fact "pulling people off the street" just to meet schedules...

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 5):
But, of course, a union member has NEVER made a mistake like that, right?

Never!  angel  I mean i'm SURE they have, but i think most tags on the floor are from engineering and not from manufacturing errors. You should see how many tags there're going to be on the 47-8 for problems that we knew of on release of the parts/instls. But oh well...


User currently offlineScrubbsYWG From Canada, joined Mar 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3028 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 6):
I mean i'm SURE they have, but i think most tags on the floor are from engineering and not from manufacturing errors. You should see how many tags there're going to be on the 47-8 for problems that we knew of on release of the parts/instls. But oh well...

yup, always the engineer, never the techs, process techs, operators, or anyone else. always comes back to engineering.


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2974 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 2):
Sometimes the engineers (SPEEA) go on strike too, but not as often.

I think that only happened once in recent times, in the 90's.

Tom.


User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2905 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):

I think that only happened once in recent times, in the 90's.

Yeah I think so too.

So I just read this great article in the Seattle Times: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ology/2008056024_machinists17.html

Fair use excerpt:

" "Do you know why we're here?" one Machinist said to his two young children while waiting for the rally to begin inside KeyArena. "It's a big show of support to show the company we're serious." When his neighbor stood and began shouting, the father added, "That's why everyone is all excited." "

I'm sure there were a lot of members that took off time from their shifts to vote and to get the free tickets given out to area attractions. This goes back to what Stitch said; I think that they are being completely hypocritical and I for one think it's ridiculous already. let's see what happens in september (again)...


User currently offlineSxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2875 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 6):
You definitely could be right, though, would Vought say "we pulled someone off the street to put together these advanced technology fuselage barrels, and he had no idea what he was doing." Many of the partners are in fact "pulling people off the street" just to meet schedules...

Where else do you think workers for new programs come from? If they're shifted from existing programs they still need to be backfilled with someone of the street...

Its the training and management that counts, not the tenure or union affiliation.


User currently offlineBaroque From Australia, joined Apr 2006, 15380 posts, RR: 59
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2849 times:



Quoting ER757 (Thread starter):
have management over a barrel this time

In the case of the 787, literally over a barrel.

It will be interesting to see if the industrial scene has changed as much as has been supposed after the economic rationalists fiddled with systems. It might be that unrest is more related to perceived levels of inflation, and high petrol prices are a good way of convincing folk that costs of living are rising.


User currently offlineHercPPMX From United States of America, joined May 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Being the son of a retired boeing engineer (SPEEA), it's my opinion that boeing doesn't normally try and shaft the employees too bad, you have to keep in mind that its a publicly traded company that will try and keep as much money as possible. However IMHO this is not the time for the company to be tight fisted. With boeing have backlogs of somewhere in between 1000-2000 aircraft (correct me if my numbers off) I think Boeing may come out in a better financial position in the long run if they give the union a little more now and get the 787, 77F, and 747-8'S rolling out of the factory doors.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 8):
Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 2):
Sometimes the engineers (SPEEA) go on strike too, but not as often.

I think that only happened once in recent times, in the 90's.

If I remember correctly it was spring 99 they were out for somewhere around 30 days. (That may be a little off, I was quite a bit younger then and can't remember for sure.)



C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12503 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2713 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 12):
With boeing have backlogs of somewhere in between 1000-2000 aircraft (correct me if my numbers off)

At the end of June their backlog was 3,661. With the new business they announced at Farnborough, that will have increased even after July delivereis are taken in to account.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineHercPPMX From United States of America, joined May 2008, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2693 times:



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 13):
At the end of June their backlog was 3,661.

Wow that is way more then I thought, is this the backlog for Commercial and Defense.

Also does anyone know if the Machinists union covers all of the Defense A/C machinists



C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12503 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2669 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!



Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 14):
Wow that is way more then I thought, is this the backlog for Commercial and Defense.

That's just Boeing Commercial Aircraft.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9612 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2625 times:

At the last contract negotiation, Boeing was hurting. Stock price was about 30 and there had been quite a few layoffs in the wake of 9/11. The unions ceded to the benefit of the company. Now however, the profits are just rolling in and the backlog is huge. The company has been hiring wildly recently and obviously the unions want a chunk of it. It is an interesting year since it is IAM negotiations followed immediately by SPEEA.

I am a believer that one of the unions will go on strike. Management might be able to keep IAM in this time, but if they do then IAM is going to get some pretty good concessions. If so SPEEA is going to want those same levels of increase to pay, health care, pension, and work rules. I would be very impressed if management could prevent both unions from striking. One thing though is that the machinists are smart and if they strike it would be in September or October when the weather is still decent. If the engineers went on strike, it will be in February. Yeah, ok who's the smart ones there?

One thing to consider is that in contract negotiations with the airlines for sales, there are always contingencies for labor disputes. So if IAM walked out then Boeing would get an excuse to delay the 787 yet would keep the engineers working hard to come up with solutions. The result could be beneficial for the company. I know it's a stretch, but it's possible. Who knows what management will do.

Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 2):
Sometimes the engineers (SPEEA) go on strike too, but not as often.

Engineers have been on strike once. Production never shut down because of engineering on strike. Management got the contract negotiated before production did completely shut down.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 7):


Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 6):
I mean i'm SURE they have, but i think most tags on the floor are from engineering and not from manufacturing errors. You should see how many tags there're going to be on the 47-8 for problems that we knew of on release of the parts/instls. But oh well...

yup, always the engineer, never the techs, process techs, operators, or anyone else. always comes back to engineering.

Oh yes it is always the design engineer who is blamed yet of course there are so many people downstream who have an involvement in a part. The number of tags caused by engineering isn't very high, but when you look at the number of areas that are involved in getting a part on the plane, there are so many sources for error.

Quoting HercPPMX (Reply 12):
Being the son of a retired boeing engineer (SPEEA), it's my opinion that boeing doesn't normally try and shaft the employees too bad, you have to keep in mind that its a publicly traded company that will try and keep as much money as possible.

Well I'm glad your father/mother felt that way, but a lot of people feel that Boeing does give its employees the shaft. Who knows if we'll have our pension in 20 years? I'm not old and jaded yet, but a lot of people do feel like they have to be in a union to protect their rights. Not so much in SPEEA, but definitely IAM.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2594 times:



Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
It is an interesting year since it is IAM negotiations followed immediately by SPEEA.

This happened last time around too. It will continue until one of the unions goes for something other than a 3 year contract.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
Engineers have been on strike once. Production never shut down because of engineering on strike. Management got the contract negotiated before production did completely shut down.

Production didn't totally stop, but I believe deliveries did. The AR's (then DER's) who sign the airworthiness paperwork are SPEEA.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):

Well I'm glad your father/mother felt that way, but a lot of people feel that Boeing does give its employees the shaft.

I've seen that too. However, in my experience, the people that feel that way are the ones who never worked for anyone else. Compared to most other businesses, and especially most other engineering/manufacturing businesses, Boeing is very very good to their people.

Tom.


User currently offline707lvr From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 583 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2565 times:



Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 4):
Boeing mechanics in seattle get upwards of $20-$25 an hour

(Considerably upwards.) The labor environment is very different than it was prior to any of the previous strikes. They even liked Alan. So is the psychological: remaining workers view their futures more apocalyptically. I predict a bitter but relatively short strike with Boeing throwing as much money as it takes. For now. Joke is Everett will eventually only have one employee - somebody to hand over the keys.

As for the above, "..a lot of people feel that Boeing does give its employees the shaft," and ".. compared to most other businesses, and especially most other engineering/manufacturing businesses, Boeing is very very good to their people." Both of these statements are true. Explains a lot when you think about it.


User currently offlinePianos101 From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 365 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2537 times:



Quoting 707lvr (Reply 18):
As for the above, "..a lot of people feel that Boeing does give its employees the shaft," and ".. compared to most other businesses, and especially most other engineering/manufacturing businesses, Boeing is very very good to their people." Both of these statements are true. Explains a lot when you think about it.

I couldn't agree more. I mean on one side we have the EIP, which gave non-managers 15 days of pay as a bonus this year. After completing my BS and MS degrees I was awarded 100 shares of stock each, and the general health and education benefits are GREAT. And we get paid for all of our OT.  Smile That starts to rack up over time...

On the the other hand: Share Value Trust. Conspiracy or not, SVT did not provide for us as much as the executives wanted, but that's why they started EIP. So I think in the end they are looking out for us, even though at the moment it might not seem so...

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
At the last contract negotiation, Boeing was hurting. Stock price was about 30 and there had been quite a few layoffs in the wake of 9/11

For the last IAM negotiations (summer/fall 05) the stock price was around 65 and that was during the upswing part of the crazy hiring (that's still going on). The end of 05 was a pretty good time for Boeing.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 16):
I'm not old and jaded yet, but a lot of people do feel like they have to be in a union to protect their rights. Not so much in SPEEA, but definitely IAM.

That's what i've found too. The IAM members seems much more "vocal," shall we say, than the SPEEA members (I'm guessing you're in SPEEA). When I worked in EVT and was in SPEEA all i thought of the union was the $30 deductions on my paycheck. Now that I'm not in SPEEA here in Philly everyone wonders what good the unions are. Still being Boeing directs, when SPEEA gets new contracts we pretty much get the same (new) benefits. All the pluses of being in a union, without actually being in the union (and paying dues!).


User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2530 times:



Quoting ER757 (Thread starter):
I would say chances are high. There's some pretty tough talk from the union chiefs and the membership voted 99% in favor of authorizing a strike.

The secret word in the statement above is "authorize". With the rank and file members authorization to strike the union has something to hold over the company head during contracts negotiations. Without strike authorization the union would have little or no power.

After the contract negotiations are completed the union will have another vote, this time either to accept the contract or will go on strike.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30910 posts, RR: 87
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2483 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

With "The Great Culling" of late 2001/early 2002, folks with the lowest seniority were the ones sent packing. So if the majority of SPEEA and IAM workers are those with ten or less years left before retirement, they have no vested interest in protecting those jobs for younger members and can both demand significant concessions and launch a strike, even if both ensure future airplane programs will require significantly less in-house engineering and assembly talent.

They won't be around, anyway, so their goal will be to get as much as they can while they can and protect what they (like pensions) have for as long as they can.


User currently offlineA10WARTHOG From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 324 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2465 times:



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
With "The Great Culling" of late 2001/early 2002, folks with the lowest seniority were the ones sent packing. So if the majority of SPEEA and IAM workers are those with ten or less years left before retirement, they have no vested interest in protecting those jobs for younger members and can both demand significant concessions and launch a strike, even if both ensure future airplane programs will require significantly less in-house engineering and assembly talent.

They won't be around, anyway, so their goal will be to get as much as they can while they can and protect what they (like pensions) have for as long as they can.

With all do respect, I believe you are a little off on that statement. The majority of the people I work with have been with the company 20+ years. Some are with in 3 years of retirement some longer. They do care about the younger employees. That is one reason why they went on strike in 2005. From talking with them they do not what to see the jobs go out the doors. Many have kids that have just now started working at Boeing.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9612 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2398 times:



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 17):

I've seen that too. However, in my experience, the people that feel that way are the ones who never worked for anyone else. Compared to most other businesses, and especially most other engineering/manufacturing businesses, Boeing is very very good to their people.

I know what it is like working for a contractor that does business for Boeing and I know how Boeing treats its employees and I think Boeing is very good to its people. However it is human nature to never be happy. But then again, I'm not a very jaded individual and still cherish the opportunity every day to work in an aerospace environment.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineEA772LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2836 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

I don't understand the need for unions anymore. It seems that companies that use unions have nothing but trouble... This isn't the old days when guys like Carnegie and Vanderbilt were providing unacceptable work conditions and there was rampant abuse. I used to work with a lot of ex-union guys doing construction as a summer job 7 years ago or so, and they just had this attitude about them like they would only do so much and nothing more. I'm not saying that all union guys are that way, just my own observation working with about a dozen or so. Wouldn't that be something if Boeing had to announce yet another delay due to renegotiation of union contracts....  Yeah sure


We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
25 Tdscanuck : It really depends on who you work for. There are employers out there that deserve to have their workforce unionize. Sometimes true, but certainly not
26 Flybyguy : Oh great... If they strike now look forward to lay-offs next year. When will the unions learn that being greedy only hurts the little guy... namely th
27 Lightsaber : I do not work for Boeing, but I've seen a few of their traveling IAM mechanics. They're itching to strike. Not as much as you would think. It take a
28 F9Animal : Wrong area I posted in! Please delete mods![Edited 2008-07-20 19:59:40]
29 Ken777 : Regardless of how much the unions want to get there are still factors that can impact the jobs of their members. Continual deterioration of the econom
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
End Of Northwest Strike May Be At Hand posted Fri Dec 30 2005 15:08:05 by KarlB737
What Are The Chances Of Seeing B6 Back At ATL posted Tue Dec 9 2003 18:47:23 by Flairport
Strike Avoided At Boeing posted Sun Sep 15 2002 00:42:41 by B757300
Alliance Likes Chances Of Landing Boeing posted Fri Mar 23 2001 03:48:40 by Baec777
Progress Of New Airport At La Mercy, DUR posted Fri Jun 13 2008 04:57:22 by Signol
Decor Of UA's FIS At LAX posted Thu May 29 2008 12:14:41 by Uclax
Future Of Int'l Carriers At Fortress ATL? posted Mon May 12 2008 13:48:07 by Delta763
UA And AS Planes At Boeing Field On 5/11 posted Sun May 11 2008 20:25:24 by RoseFlyer
Chances Of Cathay Getting The A380 posted Tue Apr 29 2008 18:13:54 by Ctang
For Those Who Are Bored Of EZY A319 At LGW posted Fri Apr 25 2008 11:21:48 by EZYAirbus