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A Flag, An Anthem And A Money-losing Airline  
User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 8
Posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10333 times:

For some time I have been looking for the origin of a sometimes used quote about "flag" carriers. This from Time magazine in an article on 12 October 1970, reporting on Austrian Airlines and Swissair is the earliest that I have found so far:

"Along with a flag and an anthem, the symbols of nationhood all too often include a money-losing national airline. Since 1950, the number of "flag" carriers has proliferated to the point that there are almost as many as there are countries in the U.N."

Does anyone have a similar earlier (or more recent) quote?


John Macilree
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8625 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10269 times:
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the article made interesting reading - but I imagine the writer would have been very surprised to see OS outlive SR ( and Sabena as well for that matter )


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 2, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10224 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
( and Sabena as well for that matter )

What about Olympic?  duck   Wink



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 922 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

Empires of the Sky, which I consider to be one of the best books on international airline politics, says something like "To be a nation requires two things: a flag and an airline." I don't recall the exact text, and the book is currently on loan, sorry.

User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10153 times:

I have heard [paraphrased] "the first thing any country, no matter how poor it is or how war-torn, must do upon independence is buy a 747 and fly it to Heathrow".


A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (6 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 10100 times:

You could also look under the term "chosen instrument" which refers to a flag carrier that does its home government's bidding often in return for monopoly routes or direct subsidies.

[Edited 2008-07-19 12:48:24]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineMowtoib From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8306 times:

"Sales offices and planes of both lines would bear a single name, possibly "Swissair-Austrian Airlines," but aircraft from each country would still be distinguished by a national emblem on the tails"

The idea with sales offices did work - this cooperation lasted for over 25 years and was broken all of a sudden. But the aircraft were never painted in the same colours. There was also EQA - European Quality Alliance founded by OS and SR and later joined by SAS and Finnair.


User currently offlineDambuster From Switzerland, joined Nov 2006, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7465 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
the article made interesting reading - but I imagine the writer would have been very surprised to see OS outlive SR ( and Sabena as well for that matter )

SR's downfall has nothing to do with it being the national carrier, as a matter of fact, the Swiss government refused any financial help to the carrier when it was in bad shape. LX is the same now, it's only the national carrier by name, not by nature.
Some airlines such as IR however have everything to do with their government.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7329 times:



http://www.sfiac.org/Italian%20National%20Anthem.htm


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Photo © Stefano R.



User currently offlineCURLYHEADBOY From Italy, joined Feb 2005, 940 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6059 times:



Quoting FlySSC (Reply 8):


http://www.sfiac.org/Italian%20National%20Anthem.htm



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Photo © Stefano R.

I knew it was coming, whistling like a howitzer round Big grin



If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
User currently offlineCschleic From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5548 times:



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 5):
You could also look under the term "chosen instrument" which refers to a flag carrier that does its home government's bidding often in return for monopoly routes or direct subsidies.

Wasn't this phrase used in reference to Pan Am?


User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4770 times:



Quoting N867DA (Reply 4):
I have heard [paraphrased] "the first thing any country, no matter how poor it is or how war-torn, must do upon independence is buy a 747 and fly it to Heathrow".

made me think of this photo even though I believe this was a one off.


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Photo © Sarah Ward



YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Does US Airways count? They haven't done so hot for quite a while.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7359 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4052 times:
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I thought this thread was about American Airlines.  duck 

User currently offlinePlunaCRJ From Uruguay, joined Nov 2007, 576 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4037 times:



Quoting Xtoler (Reply 12):
Does US Airways count? They haven't done so hot for quite a while.

But I wouldn´t consider US Airways as the US´s flag carrier.

In fact, it is difficult to identify a US flag carrier.


User currently offlineXtoler From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 953 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3821 times:

Seeing as how our airlines aren't governement controlled, I guess I would be wrong. But then again, they are in the CRAF system and can be called up for military airlift.


EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1041 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3763 times:
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Ia Orana all !

When I saw the title I thought someone was posting something about Air Tahiti Nui who is begging for more money from the french polynesian governement.


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Photo © Simon Gregory - Jetwash Images




Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25693 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3668 times:
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Quoting Cschleic (Reply 10):
Wasn't this phrase used in reference to Pan Am?

Yes, as here:

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...mercial_Aviation/Pan_Am/Tran12.htm

"Pan American: The History of America's ”Chosen Instrument” for Overseas Air Transport"

But Pan Am was never state owned, and I think (I could be wrong) the phrase was first coined about Imperial Airways, later BOAC, which was also called "a branch of the British Foreign Office".

http://www.answers.com/topic/british-airways-plc-adr

"Imperial Airways was formed with the intention of being Britain's "chosen instrument" for overseas air service."

I guess the concept applied to Air France or Aeroflot. Or any of the state owned airlines.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days ago) and read 3635 times:



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 14):
But I wouldn´t consider US Airways as the US´s flag carrier.

In fact, it is difficult to identify a US flag carrier.

Pan Am? Oh wait, they're gone  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1845 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (6 years 5 months 5 days ago) and read 3612 times:



Quoting PlunaCRJ (Reply 14):

In fact, it is difficult to identify a US flag carrier.

The USA lost it's last flag carrier when TWA was taken over.

TWA & Pan Am were both US flag carriers.



Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5600 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 5 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3362 times:



Quoting Cschleic (Reply 10):
Wasn't this phrase used in reference to Pan Am?

PanAm and Saint Paul, among others.  Smile



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAirStairs From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 487 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3319 times:



Quoting TUNisia (Reply 19):
The USA lost it's last flag carrier when TWA was taken over.

TWA & Pan Am were both US flag carriers.

Are they not now American and United?

Wikipedia says that in the United States, a national or flag carrier must have an operating revenue between $100 million and $1 billion, which seems arbitrary, and, besides, makes no sense (why cap at $1 billion and which of any of the well-known carriers makes less than that?).

This is, apparently, a(n obviously outdated) list of US flag carriers although I can't at all vouge for its accuracy, I was just curious to see what came up.

Airtran Airways (FL)
Alaska Airlines (AS)
America West Airlines (HP)
American Airlines (AA)
American Trans Air (TZ)
Continental Airlines (CO)
Delta Airlines (DL)
Frontier Airlines (F9)
Hawaiian Airlines (HA)
Midwest Express (YX)
Northwest Airlines (NW)
Southwest Airlines (WN)
Spirit Airlines (NK)
United Airlines (UA)
US Airways (US)



AirStairs


User currently offlineTUNisia From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1845 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (6 years 5 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3284 times:



Quoting AirStairs (Reply 21):
Are they not now American and United?

TWA & Pan Am had a certain cache associate with them that none of the current US carriers have. They were recognized worldwide and were respected in their fields above all others. It's a shame they are gone.

TWA even helped start and managed Saudi Arabian Airlines (even had pilots fly routes) as well as Ethiopian Airlines. They were a class act.

I'd wager most people associate AA as the flag carrier, but I think CO and DL fall more in line with that due to their larger INTL presence.



Someday the sun will shine down on me in some faraway place - Mahalia Jackson
User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2819 times:



Quoting AF Cabin Crew (Reply 16):

When I saw the title I thought someone was posting something about Air Tahiti Nui who is begging for more money from the french polynesian governement.

On 14 July 2008 Pacific Magazine reported on the latest developments with respect to the finances of Air Tahiti Nui. Note the reference to the airline's 16th recapitalisation being approved last year.



John Macilree
User currently offlineMacilree From New Zealand, joined Dec 2006, 243 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (6 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) web site has an interesting, comprehensive list of government-owned and privatized airlines compiled by the Air Transport Bureau.


John Macilree
25 DeltaL1011man : Then you have to add in Delta because they got the other half of PAA. What is funny is if you put the DL/NW route map on top of a PA route map you wi
26 Jfk777 : Have a 747, a seat at teh United Nations and a slotat LHR. The photo in question was not of an airplane Air Malawai scheduled regularlly. IT operated
27 YOWza : I was a kid living in Malawi at the time. I knew there was some elaborate story behind it all but I never fully followed up on it. At least Banda had
28 FlyMIA : As much as I love AA. (MIA!) I thought the same. But I guess thats a good thing too since I thought about AA when i read "A Flag, An Anthem." Love Li
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