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Why No Indian Carriers To Australia?  
User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 710 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4364 times:

I've been wondering lately why no Indian carriers currently serve Australia, especially since SYD/MEL/PER have a rather large Indian population and tourism demand is getting alot bigger. Have any airlines confirmed their plans to head down under?

It would be fantastic to see 9W or AI start services to Australia...

[Edited 2008-07-20 02:22:25]

[Edited 2008-07-20 02:22:59]

[Edited 2008-07-20 02:23:16]

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4321 times:
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IC had announced plans to commence flights to Australia towards the end of this year , however , that was before the AI/IC merger became definite - I believe that this has now been put 'on hold' while the merger takes priority . IIRC most Indian carriers are having difficulty with capacity and crewing due to the rapid expansion that has occurred in the last couple of years . This coupled with the increasing caution most carriers have about starting new routes with fuel prices at current levels suggests to me that we are not likely to see an Indian carrier back in Australia any time in the immediate future ( always happy to be proved wrong though  Smile )


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Well a big part of the problem is SIA and MAS.

Travel between india and Australia is by far dominated by these two, who's hubs do a much better job of connecting pax. Syd-Mumbai would be the typical route for An Australian or Indian airline to operate, but all the other cities in India can be served one-stop via SIN, and at a frequency that both Indian and Australian airlines will find it difficult to match.

SIA alone connects all the australian capitals to to Mumbai, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Dehli, and Amedabad with just one stop.


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8603 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4276 times:
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Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 2):
SIA alone connects all the australian capitals to to Mumbai, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Dehli, and Amedabad with just one stop.

wow , when did SQ start service to HBA and CBR and re-introduce service to DRW ?   sorry LH , I couldn't resist - but I agree that SQ and MH being able to offer a large variety of one stop connections between various cities in Australia and various cities in India is probably also a big factor affecting the viability of the route for any Indian carrier

[Edited 2008-07-20 03:15:15]

[Edited 2008-07-20 03:15:42]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMIgAiR54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1856 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4195 times:

Indian carriers are focus in Europe and N.America because is a better option in terms of Yields, business and Cargo.

IMO much of the traffic between Australia and India is VFR.

Also for a daily flight for example (Delhi-Sydney), you need at least 2 planes and they are short of planes and with that you can operate FRA and CDG daily.

it will be very difficult for any carrier to compete versus SIA and such a large possibilities of Conexxion.

But i think we will see some service in a not very far future.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9958 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4175 times:



Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
IIRC most Indian carriers are having difficulty with capacity and crewing due to the rapid expansion that has occurred in the last couple of years .

Aren't Indian airlines currently expanding aggresively too and already receiving quite a few new aircraft now? I'm not sure if capacity and crewing is that big of an issue here.

Quoting Kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
with fuel prices at current levels

This can very well a valid reason to not open up new routes, including India-Australia routes but what are the current ticket prices? If the prices are high and demand still increasing I would think that starting new flights is less of a problem if people are willing to pay for those nonstop flights.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 2):
Well a big part of the problem is SIA and MAS.

Travel between india and Australia is by far dominated by these two, who's hubs do a much better job of connecting pax. Syd-Mumbai would be the typical route for An Australian or Indian airline to operate, but all the other cities in India can be served one-stop via SIN, and at a frequency that both Indian and Australian airlines will find it difficult to match.

SIA alone connects all the australian capitals to to Mumbai, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Dehli, and Amedabad with just one stop.

I really don't see this as a problem. Nothing is better than nonstop flights. I don't see why going through the hazzle of stopping at another airport, taking another aircraft, disembarking, boarding again, customs, security screening and all that makes SQ or MH more attractive. Nonstop flights are just much more attractive as the flying time is also shorter, period.

Once nonstop flights are offered by any airline on the India-Australia route and the airlines are promoting those routes well, the importance of SQ and MH on their connecting possibilities will diminish. Looking at the in-flight products Indian airlines now offer with their brandnew aircraft, they can very well compete with SQ and MH.

I don't see SQ or MH being a big reason for people not taking nonstop flights. The nonstop flights are just not there yet for other reasons. Indian airlines can offer people in Australia an Indian network SQ and MH can only dream off. People will travel to the cities that Indian airlines will fly to in Australia if the price is right. Once Indian airlines will have partners in Australia or have joined an alliance that SQ and MH market is gone in my opinion.

What are the reasons Indian airlines have not started nonstop Australia flights?

A388


User currently offlineLOUMEL From Australia, joined May 2008, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4151 times:

I asked the same question last week on the Indian thread and got a very informative reply (from the Indian perspective).

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4052014/

Check out Reply #45


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3224 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4111 times:



Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
What are the reasons Indian airlines have not started nonstop Australia flights?

You're point is valid, but I think a big part of the problem is there aren't enough passengers to fill non-stop flights to all of the major australian cities. Connecting in SIN or KL is a breeze...you just walk out of the jetway and over to the next one...couldn't be easier. They're set up with this in mind, not like connecting in say LAX or MIA where you'd have to go through all those hassels.

The trouble becomes largely if you're, for example a melbourne - Dehli passenger. To get on a direct service to india first would involve a domestic flight to sydney, and then a domestic flight in india. Vs a 1 connection in singapore that is seemless, no need to collect and recheck luggage etc...u can just do a spot of shopping, watch a movie, swim in the pool (yes they have a pool) have a drink etc. Hell you can just about live in Changi if you want to.

So my guess is there isn't enough o & d passengers to make it work living in 2 city pairs. Which means they could only make them work by forcing domestic connections in india and most likely in Australia as well. But if its just in India (say you've got enough to get BOM to SYD/BNE/MEL you're still at no advantage over SQ.

Qantas also passes passengers onto JetAirways at SIN so maybe they figure this is the best way to compete?


User currently offlineLOUMEL From Australia, joined May 2008, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4088 times:



Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
What are the reasons Indian airlines have not started nonstop Australia flights?

Just a casual obervation of mine but most of the Indians that I've meet over the years (with the exception of the Sikhs) are from the southern states, Tamil Nadu and Kerala typically. This would make Chennai the natural jump off point for Australia, but no Indian airline hubs from Chennai as most of the Indian carriers have their hubs in the North and West. So back tracking is an issue. This had a lot to do with Indian Airlines' proposed route to MEL (which never got off the ground) stopping in SIN as they had a departure and arrivals bank that feed the ongoing flight to MEL.

Personally, I think BLR to Australia might prove be the best alternative option.


User currently offlineLOUMEL From Australia, joined May 2008, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4077 times:



Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
So my guess is there isn't enough o & d passengers to make it work living in 2 city pairs. Which means they could only make them work by forcing domestic connections in india and most likely in Australia as well.

 checkmark 


User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4050 times:

LOUMEL: sure they weren't Lankans? Melbourne's got the largest number of foreign born Sri Lankans in the country (twice as many as Sydney):



all original stats here: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=153654 (edited original pic)


User currently offlineMilesDependent From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 859 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4004 times:

Direct flights are a much preferred option for VFR pax travelling with children. It is an absolute ordeal to have to load up the kids, treck into the terminal, and get back on the plane. An Indian guy I know at work will always travel on the nonstop QF flight even if it is a few hundred more - to avoid having to deal with the transit.

On another topic, I think if Air Lanka (excuse me, Sri Lankan Airlines as they like to be called these days) restarts Australian flights, it could also get a piece of the Aust - Sth India market. UL has a decent network of flights to India and CMB airport is a pleasure to transit. SYD-BOM/MAA is roughly the same via both SIN and CMB.


User currently offlineLOUMEL From Australia, joined May 2008, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

G'day Tayser,

No they're not Lankan. Indian regional break ups are hard to get from the stats but I think you'll find those figures are dated and probably only reflect permanent residents so don't include students, which in 2007 accounted for another 40,010 Indians in Australia, 54% of those come to Melbourne. Approximately one in five of the international students studying in Melbourne and Victoria are from India.

I think you'll find the Indian population in Melbourne is considerably larger than NSW, and given the growth of Indian students the number of students nationwide is now northwards of 40,010.

Source
http://overseasindian.in/2007/june/news/20072606-171053.shtml


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3662 times:

AI served PER a while ago with an A310 a while ago (pretty sure it routed via SIN). Why did they drop the route?

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 47
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3648 times:

One possibilty is for an Indian carrier to connect LHR-SYD through India. I hope IT will explore the possibilty of LHR-BLR-SYD. There will be no backtracking involved for routes like SYD-BLR-HYD/BOM/DEL/CCU, and very little backtracking on SYD-BLR-MAA.

However, immigration/customs at BLR for SYD-India passengers will still be a deal breaker for many.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days ago) and read 3516 times:



Quoting Ben175 (Reply 13):
AI served PER a while ago with an A310 a while ago (pretty sure it routed via SIN). Why did they drop the route?

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

AI's A310 was routed BOM-SIN-PER. Not too sure when they started but it was stopped in 1992. Another beyond-SIN A310 destination was Jakarta which they only stopped recently in 2006.



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User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1652 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3432 times:



Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 15):
AI's A310 was routed BOM-SIN-PER. Not too sure when they started but it was stopped in 1992. Another beyond-SIN A310 destination was Jakarta which they only stopped recently in 2006.

Am I dreaming when I recall that at some point they served Ahmedabad en route to PER with the A310 as well?

And that back in the days of the 707, they flew right through from PER to SYD?



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User currently offlineLeftWing From Singapore, joined Mar 2006, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3401 times:

AI really needs to stop flying those 310's......  Angry

User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3349 times:



Quoting LeftWing (Reply 17):
AI really needs to stop flying those 310's......

LOL... I agree 100%. Awesome livery but they are anything but "Palace In The Sky". However, they are now flying the brand new A330s to SIN so that is a breadth of fresh air!



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User currently offlineCHANGYOU From Singapore, joined Nov 2003, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 3074 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 5):
Looking at the in-flight products Indian airlines now offer with their brandnew aircraft, they can very well compete with SQ and MH.

I do agree that there's a vast improvements in their seats and IFE. But the touch of the cabin crew is by far a mile away from MH and SQ. And these little softwares do retain passengers. I've done some surveys as to why Indian passengers prefer SQ than any Indian airlines myself.
First its the reputation of the airline. SQ might have overhyped abt their service like some of you here agreed but for some reasons the flights are always chock the block. And the passengers that flies SQ for the first time will return for their future travels. I've met many regular passengers in the premium classes myself. Including Mr Lakshmi Mittal flying fcl from SIN-BOM.
Secondly is the connection from SIN. SQ does provide very good connection from India to Aust/NZ compares to many carriers.
SIN is a financial and medical hub for Indians. Many passengers seek medical treatments and bank their savings is SIN. And many of these passengers will stop over here in SIN before continuing their journey to not only AUst/NZ but other parts of the world.
So there are many reasons people from India fly SQ not only because of the airline but also from various external factors.


User currently offlineGr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2874 times:



Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 16):
Am I dreaming when I recall that at some point they served Ahmedabad en route to PER with the A310 as well?

Yes, you are....AMD was never on the direct route to PER....it used to be BOM-SIN-PER....

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 16):
And that back in the days of the 707, they flew right through from PER to SYD?

Yes, you're right.....they used to fly BOM-MAA-SIN-PER-SYD with the 707's ..... and some of the flights used to go right up to NAN...but that was back in the 60's and 70's.... smile 


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 20):
Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 16):
And that back in the days of the 707, they flew right through from PER to SYD?

Yes, you're right.....they used to fly BOM-MAA-SIN-PER-SYD with the 707's ..... and some of the flights used to go right up to NAN...but that was back in the 60's and 70's....

AI served Australia from October 1956 to January 1991. From AI website history timeline --

October 1956 - SYD commenced, 1 x week L1049G BOM-MAA-SIN-DRW-SYD. (DRW a technical stop only.)
May 1962 - 707 replaced L1049G.
October 1962 - PER commenced. Routing BOM-BKK-SIN-PER-SYD.
August 1964 - SYD service extended to NAN.
At some point after 1964 SYD increased from once to twice a week with one flight continuing to NAN.
September 1970 - one SYD flight dropped.
April 1974 - NAN dropped.
March 1976 - 747-200 replaced 707. Routing then BOM-MAA-SIN-PER-SYD.
June 1980 - MEL commenced. Routing BOM-PER-SYD-MEL-PER-BOM.
April 1981 - MEL dropped.
April 1986 - PER dropped. Routing then BOM-SIN-SYD.
January 1991 - SYD dropped.

[Edited 2008-07-21 18:41:23]

[Edited 2008-07-21 18:43:14]

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