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CO CLE-CDG Axed?  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6590 times:

With CO joining Star Alliance and a weakening US economy, is it likely that CO will just drop the seasonal CLE-CDG and use the 757-200ER ETOPS elsewhere in the system? Does not seem like a viable route if CO exits SkyTeam.

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6583 times:
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not necessarily. If we keep a codesahre with AF than the route would still be worthwhile to keep.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7536 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6543 times:



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 1):
not necessarily. If we keep a codesahre with AF than the route would still be worthwhile to keep.

With how whiny AF can be, I wouldn't count them in, they seem to take the your with us 100% or your not approach to many things. But only time will tell.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6470 times:



Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 2):
With how whiny AF can be, I wouldn't count them in, they seem to take the your with us 100% or your not approach to many things

Not hardly.

AF happily and successfully codeshares / partners with AY, JL, QF (all oneworld) and LO, LX, OS, OU (all star) in addition to a bunch of unaffiliated carriers.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

with a few exceptions, all of the 3 major alliances prohibit carriers codesharing with airlines of anyother alliance. Once CO moves to Star, AF cannot codeshare on CO flights and v.v.

It is more likely that CO can justify starting other routes from CLE but because most of Star's continental Europe hubs are beyond the range of a 757 from CLE, the economics become different.


User currently offlineCLE757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6396 times:

CLE-CDG and CLE-LGW are already bookable for 2009.


Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6357 times:



Quoting ContinentalEWR (Thread starter):


With CO joining Star Alliance and a weakening US economy, is it likely that CO will just drop the seasonal CLE-CDG and use the 757-200ER ETOPS elsewhere in the system? Does not seem like a viable route if CO exits SkyTeam.

CLE-FRA can be flown with the 757-200ER ETOPS. It will be flown, if, and I stress the word if Cleveland maintains its position of importance in the Continental Airlines network.

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 1):
not necessarily. If we keep a codesahre with AF than the route would still be worthwhile to keep

Continental Airlines operates the CLE-CDG flight with the Air France codeshare for one reason alone - connections. The route is not supported by O&D. Continental Airlines will operate CLE-FRA, if Cleveland is maintained in a position of importance in the network. Thinking that Air France and Continental Airlines will maintain a code-share with the exit from SkyTeam would not be viable for either parties. For Air France since all Cleveland markets can be served more than well via Detroit, and Atlanta. For Continental Airlines since all European markets currently code-shared by Air France via CDG can be easily replaced by the power of Lufthansa via FRA.

Big version: Width: 1515 Height: 1136 File size: 290kb
CO 757-200 ~ EWR


User currently offlineGreenair727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 558 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6283 times:



Quote:
Continental Airlines operates the CLE-CDG flight with the Air France codeshare for one reason alone - connections. The route is not supported by O&D

Anybody know the percentage of pax that are local CLE to local CDG?


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6141 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
with a few exceptions, all of the 3 major alliances prohibit carriers codesharing with airlines of anyother alliance



Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 3):
AF happily and successfully codeshares / partners with AY, JL, QF (all oneworld) and LO, LX, OS, OU (all star)

Seems like AF is using most (if not all) of the few exceptions



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineFXramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7247 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6135 times:
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Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
CLE-CDG and CLE-LGW are already bookable for 2009.

Please tell me how this secures the future of this route if oil goes to $200/barrel and CO joins Star Alliance?

 confused 


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6008 times:

While CLE-FRA is 160 miles farther than the usual 752 limit of EWR-TXL, the fact that CLE rarely gets delays based on air traffic may make FRA-CLE a good possibility. It's also a few miles shorter than DL's CVG-CDG, flown is a 752.

User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4747 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5999 times:



Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
It's also a few miles shorter than DL's CVG-CDG, flown is a 752.

CVG-CDG is not a 757.

CVG-AMS is a 757.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4368 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5968 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
with a few exceptions, all of the 3 major alliances prohibit carriers codesharing with airlines of anyother alliance. Once CO moves to Star, AF cannot codeshare on CO flights and v.v.

This is not the case -- in fact, such a restriction would be violative of various antitrust laws around the world.

Now in practice, there are various duties that arise under the contractual relationships entered into between alliance members that do serve to discourage such activity, but that's still a far cry from outright prohibition.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineFUN2FLY From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1035 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5769 times:

The fact that LGW and CDG are both loaded this early in the season is very good news for CLE. It hasn't always been that way. CDG consistently has been $200 RT more than LGW the times I've looked. I don't really have any feel for either flight's profitability. Many have said it will take a year for CO to get out of Skyteam, therefore the CDG could only be around for one more summer. Prior to the Skyteam departure, there was a lot of talk on the forum that CO exec's had strongly hinted at AMS for 2009. That might just be a CLE pipedream now.

With Star, I'd bet we'd see the aforementioned FRA at some point, might be 2010. Makes a lot of sense as everyone points out. It certainly could run year round if fuel is right (similar to the CDG flight if fuel was right). Also, CO is short metal into FRA. Unless the pull an widebody from thin air, and they already are going to be short 2 777's for PVG, CLE or EWR should be seeing a 752 flight to FRA in addition to the 764(sometimes 777) flight from EWR.

By the way, MAD was downgraded from 764/752 to 2x 752 for next summer. Looks like they free up one 764 for a 777 route for EWR>PVG or a 764 for EWR>MUC??? We all know that's not coming to CLE.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11522 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5762 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
with a few exceptions, all of the 3 major alliances prohibit carriers codesharing with airlines of anyother alliance.

oneworld has no such prohibition of any kind.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22863 posts, RR: 20
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5708 times:



Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 13):

With Star, I'd bet we'd see the aforementioned FRA at some point, might be 2010. Makes a lot of sense as everyone points out. It certainly could run year round if fuel is right (similar to the CDG flight if fuel was right). Also, CO is short metal into FRA. Unless the pull an widebody from thin air, and they already are going to be short 2 777's for PVG, CLE or EWR should be seeing a 752 flight to FRA in addition to the 764(sometimes 777) flight from EWR.

You assume, of course, that CO will operate the flight. However, LH does operate CLT-MUC despite not having an especially intimate relationship with US.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3936 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5668 times:
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Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):

that's just Worldtraveler's attempt to look down on CO.



okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5616 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 15):
espite not having an especially intimate relationship with US.

haha who does? :-P

But what good does US-Airways do Star if no one wants to get close to them?

~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22863 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5592 times:



Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 17):
But what good does US-Airways do Star if no one wants to get close to them?

That's not the point. Once CO joins Star, even if their relationship with LH is as relatively distant as US's is, LH may still operate CLE-FRA.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5491 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 18):
That's not the point

Well you made the statement. So I just want to see the proof that they don't have a close relationship with US. If they fly to CLT and code share with US throughout CLT than that seems like a close relationship to me.

~Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22863 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5453 times:



Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 19):
If they fly to CLT and code share with US throughout CLT than that seems like a close relationship to me.

US and LH do not have antitrust immunity. US and LH have a relatively less intimate relationship than do, say, UA and LH or UA and AC. You've seemingly imputed a normative judgment to what I said. There's nothing wrong with not being as close to your alliance partners as UA is to LH or DL is to AF.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2672 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5416 times:



Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
CLE-CDG and CLE-LGW are already bookable for 2009.

So was about 11% of AA's route network. Just because they're loaded means nothing. For a schedule that far out, it's likely a "default" that will be firmed as time grows nearer (IIRC, about 90 days out). For those in the know, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2613 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5357 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 11):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 10):
It's also a few miles shorter than DL's CVG-CDG, flown is a 752.

CVG-CDG is not a 757.

CVG-AMS is a 757.

Oops, you are correct, but CVG-AMS is only 13 miles shorter than CDG-CVG and two miles longer than CLE-FRA.


User currently offlineCLE757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4420 times:



Quoting FXramper (Reply 9):


Quoting CLE757 (Reply 5):
CLE-CDG and CLE-LGW are already bookable for 2009.

Please tell me how this secures the future of this route if oil goes to $200/barrel and CO joins Star Alliance?

If Oil goes to $200 a barrel, alot of routes and airlines wont be around.



Cleveland the best location in the Nation
User currently offlineATLFlyer323 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 4402 times:



Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20):
US and LH do not have antitrust immunity. US and LH have a relatively less intimate relationship than do, say, UA and LH or UA and AC. You've seemingly imputed a normative judgment to what I said. There's nothing wrong with not being as close to your alliance partners as UA is to LH or DL is to AF.

Cool my question was answered. See that wasn't hard! lol

Thanks,
Brandon



Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
25 Cle757 : I Checked the loads for the CDG-CLE flights, I bet they are averaging 80-95% load factor, the CLE-CDG probably 60-70%. The weak US dollar is bringing
26 PSU.DTW.SCE : The fact that both flights are loaded for 2009 means absolutely nothing about the future of the route. Routes like DTW-DUS & BDL-AMS were bookable for
27 Falcon84 : OK, I will. In past years, CLE-LGW hasn't been loaded until the late fall schedule-usually in October. Both LGW and CDG have been loaded for seasonal
28 Panamair : Yes, but that is because there is no SkyTeam option to partner with in those markets. In the transatlantic market, AF will have more than its share w
29 Ncflyer : cle757, how are loads CLE-LGW? I have no info but have assumed CDG has cannibalized LGW in a big way, and am not terribly confident both will survive
30 CLE757 : CLE-LGW I would say the average load is 70-75%, but again LGW-CLE is much higher.
31 CALMSP : sporadic on loads................hard to get people from the US to jump to London where the dollar is cut in half. BF loads are okay, coach is killin
32 Cubsrule : Unless there's some massive emigration from Cleveland to Europe that I don't know about, shouldn't the loads be roughly the same in both directions?
33 Falcon84 : Not with the dollar in the tank. The loads from Europe have been much higher than those going to Europe. And remember, it's not just going to CLE. We
34 Cubsrule : But how do the Europeans get back to Europe? The weakness of the dollar certainly affects the breakdown of originating passengers-- other things bein
35 DeltaL1011man : read post above. so? And JFK,CVG and MSP CVG-CDG is a 763 I can play this game too So what happens to the routes are if CO has a change of heart stay
36 MasseyBrown : Presumably; but they wouldn't have to return via CLE or on the CLE-LGW flight. Along the same lines, there is an anomaly in the Washington region: mo
37 CLE757 : Uh...so its better than not being bookable
38 Cubsrule : All I'm saying is that the weak dollar isn't the explanation. Numbers are inexplicable sometimes.
39 Falcon84 : I think it's exactly the explaination, as loads going EWR/IAH to LGW/LHR have been lower than normal. I think the weak dollar has a lot to do with it
40 Cubsrule : The weak dollar can explain worse loads on the London routes. It cannot explain a difference between CLE-LGW loads and LGW-CLE loads.
41 CLE757 : Why?...The Europeans get alot more for their money here then we do there. So more of them are coming to the U.S right now.
42 Evan767 : Still doesn't make any sense, unless you're implying that Europeans come to the US on a one-way ticket, to live perhaps?
43 Falcon84 : No, but all those Euro's don't all return on the same flight, do they? They may not even return on the same airline. If they come into the country go
44 CLE757 : It may not make any sense to you, but its a fact the inbounds from Europe have many more passengers then the outbounds.
45 Bobnwa : Do you have the numbers to show that to be true. As far as the weak dollar affecting loads only one way, that is not a reasonable conclusion if you t
46 ADXMatt : We have 8 B777 on order IIRC and start taking delivery 1st quarter of 2009. PVG is covered .
47 Cle757 : Well I work for CO, so I do know what the loads are.
48 FUN2FLY : 1st delivery is in Aug 2009. PVG starts in March. CO needs 2 for that leaving a 5-6 month gap for the summer schedule.
49 Bobnwa : How about sharing with us the average loads for a few months eastbound and westbound. Do you check the loads every day in both directions or have you
50 Viscount724 : But if traffic is highly directional, it means overall lower load factors in both directions since Europe-U.S. traffic is also seasonal. Many Europea
51 Evan767 : Sure, but the same amount of people come to the U.S. on DL going CDG-ATL-PHX, and then come home on CO PHX-CLE-CDG. It just doesn't make any sense th
52 LHR777 : It's always been cyclical on the North Atlantic, and continues to be so. US-Europe traffic was heavy when US summer vacation started, back in June. Th
53 Ikramerica : Or they decide to go to LA or NYC for a while after CLE, then leave from there.
54 Cle757 :
55 ThePalauan : So does this imply that CO is intending to start EWR-MUC service next year and the 764 is being considered for the flight?
56 ADXMatt : Fun2Fly... Where do you get your information? I don't recall a formal company announcement but was under the impression that is was 1st quarter 2009
57 FUN2FLY : Matt, I read this in the 10-k or 10-q in the contract section in the back when CO added 2 772's (IIRC this was done in Q4 2007 so it should be in the
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