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Airliner Emergency Landing Interrupts Air Show  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16717 times:

Just read on Yahoo News:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080720/ap_on_re_us/emergency_landing

I found a little strange that the NW crew can't choose a different airport to divert.
Anyway, i guess the public on the airshow understood the situation...


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAAN777AN From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16645 times:

I would imagine they thought it prudent to divert to the closest suitable airport, which DAY must have been.

User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3276 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 16598 times:

According to detnews.com, the pax are being bussed to DTW to continue travel...

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080720/METRO/807200321

Looking at the flight path on flightaware.com, you gotta wonder why they went back to DAY. It's a Pinnacle run station, no NWA mechanics on duty. Looks like if they had declared an emergency, it really wouldn't have taken much more time to get into DTW, maybe even less if they had gone to TOL instead....

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/NWA491


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16299 times:



Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
I found a little strange that the NW crew can't choose a different airport to divert.

Not strange at all--and they correctly followed FARs which don't mention anything about airshows. If an emergency aircraft needs the runway, they get it, and the airshow can run a little tardy.

§ 121.565 Engine inoperative: Landing; reporting.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, whenever an airplane engine fails or whenever an engine is shutdown to prevent possible damage, the pilot in command must land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made..

[121.565(b) deals with 3- and 4-engined aircraft, and I deleted mention of it for brevity. 121.565(a) obviously applies to twins..]

Quoting AAN777AN (Reply 1):
I would imagine they thought it prudent to divert to the closest suitable airport, which DAY must have been.

.

Quite right...  Wink


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 16007 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
Not strange at all--and they correctly followed FARs which don't mention anything about airshows. If an emergency aircraft needs the runway, they get it, and the airshow can run a little tardy.

Totally agree with you, and please don't think i'm trying to critizice the pilots decision, for sure they choose the safest and fastest option and managed very well as usual. When i read the article i though Port Columbus could be a better option, considering the fact of a crowd of people watching an airshow on the ground could be an aditional risk you don't want when you are in an emergency situation, but obviously the 70 nm between DAY and CMH can play a good role in the analysis they did, and i know the top level of organization of the airshows in US allows to manage things like this with no problem at all.
Many Thanks for your information about the 121.

 bigthumbsup 

GR1



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 15841 times:

No prob... I should also point out that in this case, this was a "procedural" emergency versus the "potential imminent death" type of emergency that some folks (especially the media) assume. There wasn't any greater risk to the folks around the DAY airport than had they been landing with both the engines working.

User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 15639 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
the pilot in command must land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport,

This has been hashed over many times and "nearest suitable" doesn't mean the nearest airport under your nose that's available. I don't know what this crew's situation was so I certainly won't second guess their decision but there would have been many choices. Also it's very possible they wouldn't have had a clue there was an airshow. Since it wasn't their dest or alt there probably wasn't any info telling them and if they declared an emerg. the controller wouldn't have mentioned it more than likely.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15403 times:



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):

This has been hashed over many times and "nearest suitable" doesn't mean the nearest airport under your nose that's available.



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
the pilot in command must land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport,

Absolutely true, as well as being a moot point since you selectively quoted only portions of my post. The key words in the reg (below) that you didn't quote were "in point of time."

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
the pilot in command must land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made..



User currently offlineJgarrido From Guam, joined Mar 2007, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 15292 times:



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
the controller wouldn't have mentioned it more than likely.

Really? I would find that fairly important information to pass on to the pilots in order to help them decide where they are going to divert to.


User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 683 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 15179 times:



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 6):
This has been hashed over many times and "nearest suitable" doesn't mean the nearest airport under your nose that's available. I don't know what this crew's situation was so I certainly won't second guess their decision but there would have been many choices.

They can declare an emergency if they wish, and crews often do in this situation. But the closest suitable airport is from the crew's point of view in point of time. Also, since they are a two engine aircraft with one shut down, they have now become a "single" engine aircraft.

Their choices under this rule and this situation are really not that many. If they went to a further point and it was shown that they could have easily gone to a closer one, such as DAY, then they would have been in violation of the rule and risk FAA action. The rule is set up that way as a pure safety measure. Their choices were, in fact, limited.

I have personally seen a case where a B757 crew shut an engine down due to an indication problem and decided to go beyond the nearest suitable airport. The aircraft dispatcher told the captain to land at the nearest suitable airport and told him which one would be appropriate. But the Captain did not follow the aircraft dispatcher and went further. The FAA was waiting for the crew when they landed and gave the Captain 90 days on the ground. ATC always calls the operations inspectors, whenever their is an engine shutdown.

If DAY was the nearest suitable, then this crew did the right thing, air show or no air show, mechanics available or not.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 14540 times:

My question is, didn't it take just as long to circle around to drop to appropriate altitude than it would be to continue on to DTW or even TOL?

Flying over DAY the plane would have probably been around 30,000 ft still, obviously they would have to circle around a bit to get a smooth descent and wouldn't that take as long just to continue on with a normal descent into DTW?

Or did the plane lose the engine somewhere over Kentucky and the nearest airport it could descend to comfortably was DAY?


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13984 times:

Revised link:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...1/history/20080720/1357Z/KTPA/KDTW

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 10):
Or did the plane lose the engine somewhere over Kentucky and the nearest airport it could descend to comfortably was DAY?

"Comfort" doesn't really have anything to with it. I think had they shut the engine down over KY the nearest suitable in point of time may have been CVG, before thunderstorms zapped the ATC radar there, that is. Looking at the flight path, it seems reasonable to presume that the shutdown took place sometime prior to their starting to turn right, off their previous northbound track.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 10):
My question is, didn't it take just as long to circle around to drop to appropriate altitude than it would be to continue on to DTW or even TOL?

Flying over DAY the plane would have probably been around 30,000 ft still, obviously they would have to circle around a bit to get a smooth descent and wouldn't that take as long just to continue on with a normal descent into DTW?

Nobody here knows precisely what altitude they were at at the time of the shutdown, so it's impossible for anyone here (including myself) to say with certainty what other choices might have been available. Notwithstanding anyone who stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night, I'm going to act on the reasonable presumption that the crew knew exactly what they were doing and complied with the letter and spirit of the regs by landing in DAY.


User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1800 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13921 times:

Having lived in Beavercreek for 12 years of my life, I always wondered why the airshow was at DAY when FFO is just down the road and more readily suited for the crowds.

User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6264 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13844 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 3):
(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, whenever an airplane engine fails or whenever an engine is shutdown to prevent possible damage, the pilot in command must land the airplane at the nearest suitable airport, in point of time, at which a safe landing can be made..

Back in my lineboy days, we received a Convair CV-640 at LRU because of that FAR (they had an engine fire and had to pull the bottle)...It was fun marshalling a "real" airplane in, feathered engine and all. Can't recall whose bird it was, might have been Arrow, but I'm not sure if they were flying Convair turboprops around in the early 1990's. I'm sure LRU would have been about their last choice for landing otherwise.

The plane was on the ground for a couple of months, then I think they trucked a new (well, as new as a re-built Rolls-Royce Dart gets in 1993) engine up from ELP, and spent a couple of days doing an engine swap and the associated ground tests. BTW, the Dart engine is louder than hell, it even rivals the GE's on the 20 series Learjets and the Garret on the Mitsubishi MU-2 for loud noises.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineSFO777200LR From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13634 times:

Talk about an exciting air show! At least the PAX had something to watch while they waited for a solution.

[Edited 2008-07-20 21:52:38]

User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13467 times:



Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 10):
My question is, didn't it take just as long to circle around to drop to appropriate altitude than it would be to continue on to DTW or even TOL?

When you're engine out, proximity to the airport may be important than time to the airport. Even if it was the same time to DTW, TOL, or DAY, DAY was within glide range while the others may not have been. If they lost the second engine they could have continued to circle down to DAY...maybe not so if they tried to make DTW or TOL.

Tom.


User currently offlineManu From Canada, joined Dec 2004, 406 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

As well, DTW is obviously a busier airport and this made a lot of people's day flying out of DTW much less impacted by having emergency services dispatched for an emergency landing. While not the intent from the pilots, I am sure it is a benefit.

Also, isn't this a PAN PAN PAN rather than a true declare emergency?


User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 8900 times:



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 2):
TOL instead....

Yeah I wondered to as to why they went to DAY and not TOL. Maybe dispatch told them DAY and that way they had more resources to fix the plane compared to TOL I guess.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3150 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8408 times:



Quoting Manu (Reply 16):
Yeah I wondered to as to why they went to DAY and not TOL. Maybe dispatch told them DAY and that way they had more resources to fix the plane compared to TOL I guess.

Usually when planes divert, it has to do with the ground handler too. I work for MCO and we get a lot of MIA diversions and we send our planes elsewhere when our daily thunderstorms happen down here. When I lived in Daytona, planes diverting from MCO to DAB were usually Delta, Delta Connection or Continental - since we had Delta and Continental ground handlers.

Both TOL and DAY have Northwest Airlink operations, so they would probably use the same ground handler to handle them... while CMH I think still gets Northwest mainline.

As for more resources at DAY vs TOL to fix the plane I doubt that would be a reason. If they needed anything from DTW that could only be shipped by truck - TOL is only 45 minute drive vs the 3 hour drive to DAY.

It makes me think that if they landed at DAY while overflying DAY airspace, that the situation was more serious than we are led to believe and that the plane had to get down quick - otherwise maybe the situation happened over LEX or something and the plane smoothly descended to land at DAY.

Usually when I fly MCO-DTW we are usually well east of DAY and enter Ohio from W Va, then overfly CLE, however when I stop at ATL on the way, we fly over DAY and when we are still over DAY we haven't really begun our descent yet.


User currently offlineCosmicCruiser From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2254 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8300 times:



Quoting Kellmark (Reply 9):
They can declare an emergency if they wish, and crews often do in this situation. But the closest suitable airport is from the crew's point of view in point of time.

I wasn't disagreeing with you I was just pointing out that "nearest suitable" can mean many things. granted a twin losing one does slim down your options but in this cat. of jet you're falling out the sky either like you would be in a Piper Aztec. We would consider a number of things such as weather, airport facilities, distance, real nature of problem and if this is a co. served airport for maint. Declaring an emerg whether at that moment or later at the terminal area (for fire protect.) would rest with the Capt. Most of us would these days just to cover your "6". Flying a 3 eng jet as I do would certainly give you more options.


Quoting Kellmark (Reply 9):
But the Captain did not follow the aircraft dispatcher and went further. The FAA was waiting for the crew when they landed and gave the Captain 90 days on the ground.

So the dispatcher turned him in huh? whoa tough crowd! LOL. I'm curious as to all the underlieing details. 1. what was co. policy here, I'm sure it was discussed in pilot grd. school and recurrent trg. 2. what were the dispatchers options and why were they adament about this one. 3. what was the Capt.'s reasons for continuing. I've always found if I have a different idea than our dispatchers after an ACARS or two we always agree on a plan. Sometimes they know something that I don't and vice versa. You have to work together for the common goal.

Quoting Jgarrido (Reply 8):
I would find that fairly important information to pass on to the pilots in order to help them decide where they are going to divert to.

I'm saying from MY perspective (from the cockpit side) if I declare an emerg. from that moment on ATC will give me priority airspace and "personal service" until I'm on the ground. I doubt they would add to the problem by telling me there was an airshow going on and I MAY want to consider this before choosing the airdrome. Now obviously if a runway is closed or other IMPORTANT data, yes. Now that's what I think but one of the ATC folks on this site can quote the book as far as ATC responsibility goes.


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 8061 times:



Quoting Manu (Reply 16):
Also, isn't this a PAN PAN PAN rather than a true declare emergency?

Well i guess it's pilot decision what kind of call he wants to do. The ill-fated Swiss Air 111 crashed near Newfoundland start with a PAN PAN PAN, and later change the call to a full emergency, but sadly was too late for them. In the other hand, if you see the link below, the pilot says MAYDAY ( three times, about 22 seconds on the video ) after a bird ingestion, and request an immediate return to the airport, the controller says "all runways available to you"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Oub-EZVDs

Saludos.

GR1



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineHighflier92660 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 660 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7780 times:

If not for the Dayton Air Show this would have been a non-event. The Northwest 757 crew detected an apparent anomaly in the right engine's Fuel Control Unit and acting in consultation with their company ops, shut down the engine and landed at the nearest suitable airport (which happened to have an airshow at the time.) All the FAR's were met and everyone on board was safe but inconvenienced.

What made this newsworthy was a red and gray Boeing 757 landing while the throngs lining the runway were expecting to see wing walker Jenny atop an inverted Stearman. In the follow-up, Fox News and others just had to show the fleet of Geyhound buses chartered to take the pax the last 200 plus miles to Detroit as well as interviewing distressed relatives.

Ain't air travel 2008 the pits.


User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7311 times:

Other factors come to play as well. Time and distance needed to come down from altitude, need to burn or dump fuel to get within safe operation weights, weather and ATC recommendations. Just because an airport is immediately below or close to you doesn't make it the most suitable.

User currently offlineFalconBird From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Oh, common you all. Really! Several of the passengers knew the air show was going on and after a discussion with the flight crew, who wanted to see the show as well, they decided to fake an emergency situation and requested from dispatch and ATC to divert to Dayton and make a day of it in south central Ohio.

What else could it be?



Vector, Victor... Clearance, Clarence...Roger, over...under...done...
User currently offlineAAH732UAL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 23 hours ago) and read 5097 times:

They could have also chose DAY for publicity  Smile Land your airplane into an airshow.... its almost like free advertising.

25 Airbalticfan : Safety of commercial aircraft should be always priority and I am more than happy that everything ended good.It would be more than dumb to divert NW to
26 Freeze3192 : Like others have said, it's all about location and common sense. They don't want to be stuck between DAY and TOL at 10,000 ft while the other engine
27 Freeze3192 : Doubt it.
28 OPNLguy : Not quite the end of the story, i.e. those four little words you left out, "in point of time"....
29 Post contains images AAH732UAL : Sorry sour puss   I was sorta joking   Yeah land as soon as praticable not ASAP. Just like Lost Comms or most any other in flight problem. Plus the
30 OPNLguy : ..and the engine reportedly shut down as a consequence... ...not legally, as it was it was too far.
31 CosmicCruiser : That's probably true if they declared an emerg at that time however they could have just reported having shutdown an eng. and proceeded further and d
32 Isitsafenow : I kinda surprised they did not divert to CVG and "borrowed" Delta's mechanics to look at the problem. Unless DL and not Comair had mechanics at DAY...
33 SYfan100 : What is with the Detroit to Tampa Boeing 757-200 flights these days? This time it was Tampa to Detroit but my goodness.
34 AAH732UAL : Ok then that makes sense...... I was under the understanding that there was just an EICAS message and no in flight shut down.
35 Travatl : So, have the Air Show attendees demanded compensation from NW yet for delaying and interrupting their day?
36 Tdscanuck : Even if the engine didn't shut down of its own accord, the EICAS doesn't necessarily provide enough data for the flight crew to know that it's an err
37 Skibum9 : That blows....why didn't they send a spare down to DAY from DTW to pick them up? They had to have something available at DTW.
38 Arffguy : And by landing during the airshow, a boatload of ARFF and public safety equipment and personnel was already onscene and ready for a multi-casualty inc
39 DeltaRules : First DAY Air Show I've missed in four years...go figure that there's a little added drama. Glad it all turned out fine, though. They do, DC-9s, A319s
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