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New Great Lakes Service: PRC / VIS / MCE to ONT  
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

http://www.pe.com/business/local/sto...s/PE_Biz_S_aviation22.3ad2638.html

I am totally surprised by this one and called late Monday night my friend who's the airport manager, and he hadn't even heard this yet from the airline. Guess Tuesday press release maybe, it's bookable on the Great Lakes site but not in their timetable nor route map. Same start date as the Horizon nonstop LAX flight, so now we'll have two flights a day to ONT/PHX and the once daily LAX flight.

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5888 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3225 times:
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That's good news, but we'll see how long it lasts. I assume they will be using B-1900's for these routes?

User currently offlineFlyingcat From United States of America, joined May 2007, 538 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

At least PHX was a hub. We should write the government and stop this as it is a waste of our money. ZK has very few codeshares (F9 and UA) so all of their pax will still not be at a hub.

"The Ontario flights seem to meet all of our goals," Conway said, adding that the city wanted to be linked to another airport that could provide further travel connections for residents and also be an attractive destination on its own.


Please, what a crock! It meets their goal of enlarging the subsidy and flying to an airport that is so desperate for service they are getting free gate and ticket space. I'm surprised they did not go to PMD.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17290 posts, RR: 46
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3143 times:

A tiny market with no connectivity in ONT. Brilliant.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3121 times:

They still are offering twice daily PHX rotations in addition to the twice daily ONT rotations. This was along with the announcement of the central California EAS service that has been much overdue.

What's skipped though that I noticed is any mention of Great Lakes service to Kingman or Ely yet. Both of those were EAS approved with flights to LAS and I know Great Lakes had been mentioning to connect Ely with Denver with a one-stop via Rock Springs, Moab, or Vernal. Great Lakes first said delay with early EAS contracts was with crew and aircraft availability, we know the a/c part of that is complete b/s, then the airline said they couldn't align their computer/res system with that of United's, then, they were unable to find appropriate gate space in LAS. How long will it take somebody at DOT to realize that Great Lakes is just full of excuses and I at home can find aircraft readily available for lease, and I know there are open gates at LAS, and I know there are many more excuses and not reasons that Great Lakes is so delayed in fulfilling some of their EAS contracts. Just now doing an internet search found a clip that officials in Ely are being told that flights might start but with service only to SLC, intersting again not yet a Great Lakes station.

Here are the PRC flights I've found in the Great Lakes res system:

PRC-ONT 940am 1103am 355pm 518pm
ONT-PRC 800am 923am 309pm 432pm

PRC-PHX 933am 1013am 442pm 522pm
PHX-PRC 850am 930am 305pm 345pm


Just noticed and very surprised with the 10 minute turnaround times they've planned for PRC, that's a stretch. And now have to edit something typed above and this will just be quicker, with new flights loaded, now have the Ely flights in the system, once daily to DEN via Moab.


User currently offlineCBPhoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1550 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2966 times:



Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 2):
Please, what a crock! It meets their goal of enlarging the subsidy and flying to an airport that is so desperate for service they are getting free gate and ticket space. I'm surprised they did not go to PMD.



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
A tiny market with no connectivity in ONT. Brilliant.

Wow...you guys need to get a clue! ONT is def not something they just decided to link up with PRC for the hell of it. ONT is there to serve the California EAS market, and instead of spending a lot of money opening up a LAS base, like they were previously considering, they decided to go with ONT. PRC-ONT service is not for connectivity, hell its not even for the passengers. It is purely an operational decision. Aircraft that are in ONT need to be swapped out for regular maintenance, Crews need to be positioned there. So instead of wasting money and doing ferry flights and flag stops, they just decided to add it as a revenue flight. Once the aircraft is in PHX, it is in the entire route system and can be sent up to CYS for maintenance.

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 4):
Just noticed and very surprised with the 10 minute turnaround times they've planned for PRC, that's a stretch

Why may I ask, is it a stretch? We do 10 min turns at 95% of our outstations no problem!

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 4):
Great Lakes first said delay with early EAS contracts was with crew and aircraft availability, we know the a/c part of that is complete b/s, then the airline said they couldn't align their computer/res system with that of United's, then, they were unable to find appropriate gate space in LAS. How long will it take somebody at DOT to realize that Great Lakes is just full of excuses and I at home can find aircraft readily available for lease, and I know there are open gates at LAS, and I know there are many more excuses and not reasons that Great Lakes is so delayed in fulfilling some of their EAS contracts. Just now doing an internet search found a clip that officials in Ely are being told that flights might start but with service only to SLC, interesting again not yet a Great Lakes station.

Alright...more inaccurate statements. First off, why do you assume the aircraft problem is BS? Do you know anything about our aircraft. Do me a favor, go look at our route map and then consider the fact we are doing 90% of the route map with just 27 aircraft, keeping in mind a few are down for maintenance at any one time. Our aircraft are boeing pushed to the limit, flying sometimes almost 15-16 legs a day. Because of the increased use, we are having to do more maintenance with the aircraft. I dont know anything about the United Res system, so I will not comment on that. I am soo happy for you that you can find aircraft for lease and that you can get gates at LAS, in a matter of fact, you should totally start your own 1900 service to compete with us. But where are you going to get the $$$ for that? That is exactly our problem. We currently have 10 1900s that are waiting for us from Air Midwest, but management doesn't want to pay the high lease rates on the aircraft. After all, what is the point of flying EAS with aircraft that have so high lease rates, they loose money everytime they fly, full or not?? Do I necessarily agree with this, no. Is Lakes being cheap, yes and because of it, our planes break more and our flight crews are being worked to death. But then again, thats like most airlines. SLC...now thats a new one to me.

Just as a note, I am definately not drinking the Lakes "Kool Aid" nor am I sticking up for the company I work for. I am just mearly stating facts that I know. Please, feel free to flame me on this!!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6079 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2945 times:

Many of you are forgetting that ZK will be starting ONT-VIS and MCE (EAS) service. The reason for the PRC is more of a positioning flight to connect to the rest of the ZK network. ONT was chosen over LAS for the VIS/MCE service due to lack and price of counter space in LAS. ZK is not starting PRC service to Ontario for just that market.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6079 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2941 times:



Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 4):

Lakes does 10 minute turn in many cities, not very hard in a 19 seat Beech.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineUAL727NE From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 205 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

I've turned almost a full pax and bags ZK flight in 4 min. Yep not very hard. as long as they dont need fuel its very easy. I just wish they would get some more planes soon so they can start back up here in GRI. We lost Air Midwest. I used to work for them and when I get my ratings finished Ill prob. fly for them. I can't believe how much they have expanded since I worked for them.


Gotta love 3 holers!!! MD11,DC10,L-1011,B727 for life!!!!
User currently offlineMark5388916 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2917 times:

Read my sig and guess how I feel  Smile


I Love ONT and SNA, the good So Cal Airports! URL Removed as required by mod
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2902 times:



Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 9):
Read my sig and guess how I feel

I agree with you about that, I love ONT and am glad to see this service as my wife and I have close friends in Prescott and if we can fly there for those low fares then it is great.

Too bad about B6 leaving ONT and XJ also but times are changing.

FX1816


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5790 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2754 times:

I originally started a new thread about VIS/MCE but the consensus seemed to be to consolidate the info here. Unforturnately we lost a couple of comments about the service on that thread.

But thanks to the mods for changing the title of this thread before I reposted my original info about additional cities besides Prescott.

Great Lakes has started taking reservations for its EAS service out of Merced and Visalia, California. Flights will operate twice daily to ONT on a MCE-VIS-ONT-VIS-MCE routing starting Sept 8.

Schedule:
Dep Merced 6 am stop in Visalia w/dep at 6:47 am arr Ontario 7:32 am
Dep Merced 1:17 pm stop in Visalia w/dep at 2:04 am arr Ontario 2:49 pm
Dep Ontario 11:30 am stop in Visalia w/dep at 12:15 pm arr Merced 1:02 pm
Dep Ontario 5:45 p.m. stop in Visalia w/dep at 6:30 pm arr Merced 7:17 pm

Originally Great Lakes was given the MCE/VIS EAS contract last year. They planned to operate to LAS but ran into problems variously described as being related to computer systems, space at LAS. The rising price of fuel also meant their original bid became unprofitable before even starting.

The contract was rebid and awarded to Great Lakes again.

Rumors are that Great Lakes still wants to operate to LAS from Merced and Visalia but starting flights to ONT allows it to fulfill the EAS contract by starting within the deadline given by the DOT.

The airport manager at VIS also thinks they might pick up some of the O&D passengers that have been using FAT-ONT. Not a large route for XJet but there have been some non-connecting passengers between the 2. VIS thinks some Fresno passengers might drive the 45 minutes to Visalia and use their free parking to avoid driving to the Ontario area.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
User currently offlineSan747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4941 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2654 times:



Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 11):
VIS thinks some Fresno passengers might drive the 45 minutes to Visalia and use their free parking to avoid driving to the Ontario area.

Free parking is tempting... If I had a use for the flight, I would definitely consider it. I parked at the economy lot at SAN in March for 9 days- $108. At SNA for only 5 days- $71. That's a LOT of money that people would be willing to go out of their way to not pay.



Scotty doesn't know...
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

I'd be interested and actually have been trying this weekend to get the stats, but I'm missing one certain input field which is defaulting me and I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, but anyways, have been trying to pull the O&D figures for intrastate markets that existed within California years and years ago. I actually looked at this before as part of a senior thesis I did and had to create and completely within the thesis start my own commuter airline. From financing to visiting leasing companies to visiting airports of interest to creating company manuals and s.o.p and hiring and it finished at just over 300 pages and my choice of location was the California market, but, I'm trying now to get the O&D pax numbers from the days of Skywest/Delta Connection, WestAir/United Express and even a Stateswest/USAir Express route from about 1988-1993 ish.

To start, why, because I'm interested in what market might be out there again for Great Lakes since they're flying MCE/VIS-ONT and FAT sort of lies right in between the first two with a little distance to each. Because of this, I wanted to go back and pull the numbers for FAT-BUR/ONT/SNA and also BUR-SAN on both of these carriers, but also FAT-SAN which I think was only operated by USAir Express and started in 1991(?). I know the Skywest service on these routes became Delta Connection once the codeshare started, and flights first flown with SWM and then EM2 aircraft but Skywest flew these consistent until they discontinued the flights all together. On the contrary, WestAir also flew these routes, but there was quite a lapse in service I think from about late 80s early 90s or so and they utilized J31 aircraft on their flights. Lastly, the FAT-SAN leg was flown twice daily I think as USAir Express operated by Stateswest with their BE1 aircraft until express service was shifted to the J31 aircraft operated by TranStates and the route went thrice daily.

Overall, I think there was quite a market back in this time period that might be able to be found again with the Great Lakes service. With the right marketing, fares and service by Great Lakes, and with gasoline so high making some travelers avoid the longer drives, who knows, maybe it'll put people back on flights like these shorter legs that existed within California. I added to this the BUR-SAN flights because for quite a while these existed as tag-ons to FAT flights, and my father actually would take these twice weekly when his company was flying him to work on Coronado Island with the government for one of his company contracts. My dad always commented on how the early morning and evening flights were always consistently booked and then loads much lighter during the midday part, but how he was completely shocked on the business traffic carried. I remember seeing some of his flight receipts, and last minute fares, wow, I wonder what some of the yields may have been, because they never bought their intineraries more then a day in advance, so, could this fly again now?

If anybody can pull the O&D numbers that'd be great because I'm just completely missing something when I try, but it'd be interesting to see I think with such huge cutbacks on behalf of the larger airlines that maybe new opportunities might unfold for smaller commuter carriers, the few that still remain in existence.


User currently offlineWhatUsaid From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 657 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2431 times:



Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 13):
If anybody can pull the O&D numbers that'd be great because I'm just completely missing something when I try, but it'd be interesting to see I think with such huge cutbacks on behalf of the larger airlines that maybe new opportunities might unfold for smaller commuter carriers, the few that still remain in existence.

I may have breakdowns at FAT from that period and earlier, when Air Cal flew FAT-ONT, FAT-SAN... On Air Cal, the loads to ONT were always in the upper 30's/low 40's; SAN was upper 50's and low 60's. FAT never really picked up on the secondary markets. If I can dig up the numbers, I'll pass them on. The current XE numbers from FAT to ONT are 50% +/- as of April.

Can a 19 pax aircraft break-even on an intra-state route unless they charge big, big bucks? And, are we ready to downsize to 19 pax aircraft again? The business travel environment has changed dramatically. The 1K RT for a walk-up to LAX suggests that business travel would look any any alternative. Not sure if Great Lakes or anyone else could make this work.


User currently offlineFATFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 5790 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2385 times:



Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 14):
I may have breakdowns at FAT from that period and earlier,

I figured if anyone had that detail you would. I only have airport summaries from back then.

Quoting WhatUsaid (Reply 14):
Can a 19 pax aircraft break-even on an intra-state route unless they charge big, big bucks?

I'm not sure a 19 pax aircraft can do much. Great Lakes has also hinted to the airports they would like to see the route flown by Brasilias if passenger counts rise. I take that to mean that Great Lakes doesn't see money to be made at 19 seats either.

I did check some fares though. VIS-ONT is pricing at $162 RT in Sept and Oct, FAT-SFO-ONT (the cheapest connection) at $200, and FAT-LAX is over $300.

So some money to be saved right now for Fresno area travellers flying south, if ONT is convenient or a reasonable alternate to LAX.



"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
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