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UAL Reports Q2 08 Net Loss Of $2.7B  
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 8817 times:
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Net loss of $2.7b including special charges; excluding specials, Net loss of $151 million and Operating Loss of $87 million


http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080722/aqtu504.html?.v=14

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 8776 times:

With UA reporting $5.37b in revenue this quarter, it looks like DL officially became the 2nd largest airline in the US in terms of revenue. It should be added that the UA revenue number missed analysts expectations.


/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 8737 times:



Quoting Zone1 (Reply 1):
It should be added that the UA revenue number missed analysts expectations.

Analyst expectations were for 5.39b in revenue so UA missed it by around 20 million.

Despite that they managed to beat wall streets estimates by almost $100 million when it came to the net loss excluding specials number. $2.05 expected vs actual of $1.19 a share loss.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 8706 times:
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Quoting Zone1 (Reply 1):
With UA reporting $5.37b in revenue this quarter, it looks like DL officially became the 2nd largest airline in the US in terms of revenue

Well, technically the most commonly used measure for size is by RPMs and DL is still a shade below UA overall (including regionals, etc.):

Q2 08 RPMs (in m)

Delta: 32,269
UAL: 32,581

1H 08 RPMs (in m)

Delta: 60,423
UAL: 62,317

In terms of revenues though, DL already passed UA in total operating revenues last quarter (Q1 08):

Operating Revenues Q1 08:
DL: 4.76 billion; UA: 4.71 billion

Operating Revenues Q2 08:
DL: 5.5 billion; UA: 5.37 billion


User currently offlineCtermua From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 8661 times:

Looks like employees are gonna take another hit too...(per Tilton) "That said, as we fly fewer airplanes, we can reduce the costs that are necessary to run the airline. Today we announced that we're increasing our 2008 non-fuel cost reduction program by some $100 million to $500 million. All told, we will take the difficult but necessary step of reducing our workforce by 7,000 — including some 1,500 salaried and management staff by year end, and 5,500 front-line employees by the end of next year."

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 8502 times:



Quoting Panamair (Thread starter):
Net loss of $2.7b including special charges; excluding specials, Net loss of $151 million and Operating Loss of $87 million

Can someone post the results of all airlines 2Q so far for an apples to apples comparison. I know AA's net loss was far worse than this...


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 8466 times:

DL +137M 5499M +2.5%
CO -25M 3650M -.7%
B6 -7M 859M -.8%
UA -151M 5370M -2.8%
US -101M 3257M -3.1%
AA -284M 6179M -4.6%


All results exclude special items, carriers ranked based on profit/loss margin....edited to add total revenue numbers and a VERY rough profit/loss margin.

[Edited 2008-07-22 06:51:36]

[Edited 2008-07-22 07:06:19]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 8335 times:

These are really poor results when you consider that 300 of AA's planes were grounded for a part of the quarter.

User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 6 hours ago) and read 8291 times:

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 7):
These are really poor results when you consider that 300 of AA's planes were grounded for a part of the quarter.

IIRC UA mentioned that the revenue bump that UA received was only around 10 million or so, AAs MD80 grounding, while a major media event, didn't really effect AA or the rest of the carriers much in terms of revenue.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/7344...08-earnings-call-transcript?page=6

[Edited 2008-07-22 07:29:05]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 8279 times:
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Quoting United787 (Reply 5):
Can someone post the results of all airlines 2Q so far for an apples to apples comparison. I know AA's net loss was far worse than this...

All numbers excluding special charges:

Operating Profit/Loss: Operating Margin:

DL: +$213m; +3.9%
B6: +$21m; +2.4%
CO: - $13m; - 0.7%
UA: -$87m; -1.6%
AA; - $126m; -2.0%
US: -$70m; -2.1%

Net Profit / Loss; Margin:

DL: +$137m; +2.5%
CO: -$25m; -0.6%
B6: -$7m; -0.8%
UA: -$151m; -2.8%
US: -$101m; -3.1%
AA: -$284m; -4.6%

NW will report tomorrow.


User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 8170 times:

UAL's webcast starts is a few ... for those who can stand listening to Jake Brace.  Wink

Top line seems disappointing, but bottom line certainly better than expected.

[Edited 2008-07-22 08:03:39]


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 5 hours ago) and read 8032 times:

In a word wow....

UA just added/freed up 1.7 billion in cash to the balance sheet, and thats without touching the 3 billion in unemcombared assets that UA has.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/080722/aqtu093.html?.v=59

[Edited 2008-07-22 08:29:54]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 7938 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 9):
All numbers excluding special charges:

Operating Profit/Loss: Operating Margin:

DL: +$213m; +3.9%
B6: +$21m; +2.4%
CO: - $13m; - 0.7%
UA: -$87m; -1.6%
AA; - $126m; -2.0%
US: -$70m; -2.1%

Net Profit / Loss; Margin:

DL: +$137m; +2.5%
CO: -$25m; -0.6%
B6: -$7m; -0.8%
UA: -$151m; -2.8%
US: -$101m; -3.1%
AA: -$284m; -4.6%

NW will report tomorrow.

Thank you.

Although so many seem to think UA is headed to Ch. 7, it seems as though AA tends to be usually doing worse. Without getting into a chest thumping exercise, why is DL doing so "well". Do they have better fuel hedging than the others, less competition...I am sure it is many things...


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 7888 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
UA just added/freed up 1.7 billion in cash to the balance sheet, and thats without touching the 3 billion in unemcombared assets that UA has.

Cash is king in these times and this is very good news and as you say they still have unemcumbered assets as well to raise capital if need be.
The shares were up 17% when I last looked, not sure if thats due to fuel (not seen what that doing today) or whether the markets agreed UA's figures were not as bad as they expected.


User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 7867 times:



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 13):
The shares were up 17% when I last looked, not sure if thats due to fuel (not seen what that doing today) or whether the markets agreed UA's figures were not as bad as they expected.

Prior to the UA/Chase agreement the shares were up around 20% they are currently up 50%+. Its all of the above really, UA beat street expectations by almost $100 million this quarter, oil is down $4 a share and of course the boost from UAs cash flow/cash on hand.



Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineSoBe From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 256 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 4 hours ago) and read 7856 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 13):
The shares were up 17% when I last looked, not sure if thats due to fuel (not seen what that doing today) or whether the markets agreed UA's figures were not as bad as they expected.

Fuel is down almost $5. All airline shares are up with UA leading the way, up over 40%. UA jumped after the credit agreement announcement.

EDIT: beat by United1

[Edited 2008-07-22 08:59:52]

User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5401 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 7726 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 11):
thats without touching the 3 billion in unemcombared assets that UA has.

Without wanting to sound like a broken record, I have to be skeptical about the $3 billion unencumbered. UA did borrow something less than $90 million new money during the second quarter without touching the "unencumbered" assets (I wonder why) and they announced $330 million new borrowing for the 3rd quarter against aircraft. I suspect the $3 billion is book value and nowhere near what lenders would be prepared to pony up.

We'll see when the details of the $330 million are announced how much in the way of book value of assets had to be pledged. (Maybe I'm wrong on this - I sure was on the subject of their operating losses.)

The conference call is worth hearing.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 7636 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 16):
I suspect the $3 billion is book value and nowhere near what lenders would be prepared to pony up.

I don't know,

UA values 9 A319, 10 A320, 17 733s, 29 735s, 33 752s, 9 744s, 8 763s & 7 772s as being worth over 2 billion. Another 500 million worth of spare parts, 250 million in engines & 250 million worth of ground equipment/other. Its not inconceivable that you could sell/morgage those assets for 3 billion, the widebodies and 752s in particular are in rather high demand in the second hand market.

As you said though it all depends on what the buyer is willing to pay for the asset.

[Edited 2008-07-22 10:03:32]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

What does UAs cash situation look like?


"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineUnited1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5935 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
What does UAs cash situation look like?

2.9 billion unrestricted cash in the bank, 650 million in additional restricted cash. In the third quarter UA should be receiving around a billion in cash plus freeing up a good chunk of the restricted cash.

They also realized $217 million of operating cash flow and $127 million of free cash flow, defined as operating cash flow less capital expenditures, during the second quarter.

[Edited 2008-07-22 10:24:45]


Semper Fi - PowerPoint makes us stupid.
User currently offlineBoston92 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3390 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 3 hours ago) and read 7538 times:



Quoting United1 (Reply 19):

So UA is in as good (or better) shape than US...



"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 7450 times:



Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Although so many seem to think UA is headed to Ch. 7, it seems as though AA tends to be usually doing worse. Without getting into a chest thumping exercise, why is DL doing so "well". Do they have better fuel hedging than the others, less competition...I am sure it is many things...

AA did worse only cuz of the FAA MD80 groundings. UAL mgmt is far far worse that AA's. UAL is still my second on my list of legacy liquidations


User currently offlineEXAAUADL From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 2 hours ago) and read 7440 times:



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 20):
So UA is in as good (or better) shape than US...

That's like saying HMS Olymipic is better than HMS Titanic

Quoting United1 (Reply 8):
IIRC UA mentioned that the revenue bump that UA received was only around 10 million or so, AAs MD80 grounding, while a major media event, didn't really effect AA or the rest of the carriers much in terms of revenue.

It affected AA tremendously. Maybe OA didnt seea windfall, but to sya that grounding 300 planes for a week dditn effect AA is wrong


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4894 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 7272 times:
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Quoting United787 (Reply 12):
Without getting into a chest thumping exercise, why is DL doing so "well". Do they have better fuel hedging than the others, less competition...I am sure it is many things...

DL did have a better fuel hedging program in Q2 than most other legacies...Also, Q2 is traditionally DL's strongest quarter anyway (I believe UA's strongest is Q3). Though DL is still projecting an operating profit for Q3 (operating margin of +1 to +3%), it won't be as strong as Q2 as September is not a great month for many of DL's markets (especially domestic).

UA's Q2 numbers (excluding specials) IMO were actually better than I was expecting.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13547 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 hour ago) and read 7148 times:
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Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 22):
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 20):
So UA is in as good (or better) shape than US...

That's like saying HMS Olymipic is better than HMS Titanic

It's RMS Olympic and RMS Titanic, and Olympic didn't sink - she was withdrawn from service in 1935 after White Star Line and Cunard merged.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
25 MasseyBrown : It was on my bankruptcy list, too - also UA was my choice for who in DEN blinks first. Now I'm not so sure. The conference call is worth the hour plu
26 Chgoflyer : Anyone have an idea of what these numbers were pre 9/11? I recall reading in 03 or 04 UA was operating 30 747-400's.[Edited 2008-07-22 14:22:41]
27 AAH732UAL : Try over 50....... Heck UA has 32 now or something along those lines. I remember when the 400s did all the work the 777s did. It was great.... UAL881
28 EWRCabincrew : That and the Titanic had a band playing when it went down.
29 AirFrnt : Special charges repeated this often aren't. This entire industry, with the exception of CO and WN, is rotten to the core. I am willing to be my ginor
30 AirNZ : Well, you'd be very wrong then as neither were HMS....the were both RMS (Royal Mail Ship). HMS (Her Majesty's Ship) is the designation only applicabl
31 Chgoflyer : Thats great news, I preffer a 747-400 to 777 anyday. Not that long ago I traveled to and from S.E. Asia frequently and was disappointed when all ORD/
32 Ordramper98 : UA now has 31 747-400's. 6 of those are to be parked as part of the reduction in flying. At our peak, I believe, the number was a total of 45.
33 Boston92 : For the quarter, United did better than expected. Given that they would have made 600+million if fuel had stayed the same as last year. The operating
34 United1 : UA has 30 744s currently, at UAs peak they operated 44 of the 747-400 series. Actually AA is (and has been even before the groundings) projected to d
35 AAH732UAL : Glad I left myself that grey area I knew it was something like that and whats 6 747-400s amongst friends
36 United1 : LOL, well if you have a spare I might have a few plans for one....hmmmm can you put a hot tub in the nose? At one point there were 60 747s in the fle
37 Ordramper98 : This post is about 22 hours too late, but United1 your numbers are correct on the 747-400 counts. I was off by one ( I had 105UA listed twice for some
38 AAH732UAL : The odd ball 747-400 at UA 50$ virtual bucks to anyone who can asnwer why N105UA is the odd ball!
39 United1 : One of the two 744s that were ordered by NW however were delivered to UA....its also the only aircraft currently operated by UA that was not ordered
40 Post contains images AAH732UAL : I knew you would get it   Side note, is that one of the 6 leaving, does anyone know?[Edited 2008-07-23 19:43:08]
41 RDUDDJI : There was a time not so long ago when that might have hurt my feelings (as a member of UA's mgmt team at WHQ, albeit a mid level mgr). Looking back o
42 AAH732UAL : See all you Tilton lovers....... even one of his former kool-aid drinkers thinks Glenn and the gand is bad!
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