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Happy Anniversary Gimli Glider  
User currently offlineYWG747 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

Today (July 23rd) is the 25th anniversary of the dramatic incident that began when the plane ran out of fuel at 40,000 feet near the Manitoba-Ontario border on its way from Ottawa to Edmonton.

Too bad the bird has since been retired.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2951 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4057 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

25 years, hard to believe sometimes.

Pity there are no plans to preserve C-GAUN fin 604, at least I can say i flew on her a few times!


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Amazing story, both pilots did amazingly well to land her dead stick like that, the alternative would probably of hurt the 767s reputation severely for many years.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineYULYMX From Canada, joined May 2006, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

Montreal-Edmonton i think

Wikipedia:

Gimli Glider is the nickname of an Air Canada aircraft which was involved in an infamous aviation incident. On 23 July 1983, a Boeing 767-200 jet, Air Canada Flight 143, ran completely out of fuel at 41,000 feet (12,500 m) altitude, about halfway through its flight from Montreal to Edmonton. The crew was able to glide the aircraft safely to an emergency landing at Gimli Industrial Park Airport, a former airbase at Gimli, Manitoba.[1]

The subsequent investigation revealed corporate failures and a chain of minor human errors which combined to defeat built-in safeguards. In addition, fuel loading was miscalculated through misunderstanding of the recently adopted metric system.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4762 posts, RR: 43
Reply 3, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3951 times:

Nah ... it was Ottawa to Edmonton. Although flight 143 did originate in Montreal.


Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1798 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3917 times:

I bet today that flight operates with a regional jet....My how times have changed...

User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4762 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 3887 times:

143 used to operate with a DC-8-61/63, for years, before being replaced by a B767.

Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
I bet today that flight operates with a regional jet....My how times have changed...

As the flight that day only 61 passengers during peak July season, it sounds like it should have been operated by an E190 then too!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

No, it was YOW-YEG. As already mentioned the flight routing was YUL-YOW-YEG.

Interestingly, 25 years later AC143 YOW-YEG still operates at about the same time but now it's an E-190. If memory correct, until just a few months ago it was an A319 and still included the YUL-YOW sector. Now it originates at YOW.


User currently offlineCodyKDiamond From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3650 times:

Cheers to the Gimli Glider and it's crew! I wish I could have flown her. I had one encounter with her though....I was flying a 763 from YYZ to MIA and saw here while taxiing out. Hopefully someday I'll go inside her in the desert or at a museum.

User currently offlineERJ135 From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3550 times:



Quoting Crownvic (Reply 5):
I bet today that flight operates with a regional jet.

[quote=LongHauler,reply=6]As the flight that day only 61 passengers during peak July season, it sounds like it should have



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
Interestingly, 25 years later AC143 YOW-YEG still operates at about the same time but now it's an E-190

I saw Air Crash investigation the other night and it was about this incident, I had heard about it of course but never seen the full details before. A fascinating set of events that thankfully had a safe ending with no loss of life.

So I understand that Gimli air field was converted to a drag strip at the time and probably still is, so am I correct in assuming that the aircraft was repaired on site and flown out and put in service?

I think if Air Canada has a museum they should repaint this 767 in the livery of the time and preserve it. Although I think many non enthusiasts would be horrified to learn they had flown in the same aircraft after the incident.



I remember when the DC-3 was new!
User currently offlineYWG747 From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 251 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3529 times:

I was really hoping that it would end up here in YWG at the air museum.
but sadly there is no room unless they move to another build.
Which I really doubt would ever happen.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4762 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3499 times:



Quoting ERJ135 (Reply 9):
I think if Air Canada has a museum

Air Canada does not have a museum. The closest is the restoration and flying of one of the early Lockheed 10As:


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However, as YWG747 states above, there is an air museum at Winnipeg, where the Gimli Glider would be an appropriate addition.

The Western Canada Aviation Museum is worth a visit if anyone is near YWG. In fact, the restored Air Canada Viscount, open for inspection inside and out is worth the visit alone. Unfortunately, unless the B767 is left outside, there is little room for it.


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Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

I flew in the Glider a number of times. There are still rumours of a museum. While a longshot, don't rule out if traffic rebounds unexpectedly that some of these retired aircraft being put back in service with someone (Boeing) paying for the expensive checks that would have been due and maybe even some upgrading of interiors as a compensation for the delayed 787.

User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3783 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3457 times:



Quoting ERJ135 (Reply 9):
I saw Air Crash investigation the other night and it was about this incident, I had heard about it of course but never seen the full details before.

And for anyone who hasn't seen that episode, it's on youtube

Part 1:



Part 2:



Part 3



Part 4:



Part 5:



Part 6:



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Thank goodness someone posted this - it's been at least 5 minutes since the last new Gimli glider thread, I was beginning to get withdrawal symptoms......

I hope the above will tide you over until the next thread.  Big grin

LoneStarMike


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (5 years 9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3434 times:



Quoting ERJ135 (Reply 9):
So I understand that Gimli air field was converted to a drag strip at the time and probably still is, so am I correct in assuming that the aircraft was repaired on site and flown out and put in service?

They did some temporary repairs at Gimli, mainly to get the nosegear down which collapsed during the emergency landing. Then they flew it the 90 miles or so to YWG for permanent repairs which I believe took a month or two.

This news video shows it departing Gimli on the ferry flight to YWG two days after the landing..
http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/07/23/

This 2003 Australian air safety magazine article is one of the better descriptions.
http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2003/jul/22-27.pdf

This video shows it making a finaly flypast at YUL last January after takeoff on it's retirement flight to the desert. The two original pilots were aboard as passengers. They're both retired (the captain is now 73).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHy6yy3Z00

This photo shows the original pilots and two of the original flight attendants in the cockpit prior to the retirement flight. The female flight attendant is still flying with AC.

Big version: Width: 500 Height: 374 File size: 70kb


User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

I don't wish to be the party pooper here, but:

--the fuel gauges were inop @ YUL (not on the MEL however);
--the fuelling staff tried to convert inches on dripsticks to kg of fuel, and did so incorrectly;
--the cockpit crew tried to do the same conversion, incorrectly;
--this situation was repeated @YOW;
--the captain therefore launched not being certain of the on-board fuel status;
--ergo, he was potentially hazarding his a/c & pax, which is a major no-no;
--an outstanding feat of airmanship once they realised they were in trouble (assisted hugely by a) Cpt Pearson being an accomplished glider pilot and b) FO Quintal had trained at Gimli while in air force - Pearson was unaware of the strip and considered ditching in Lake Winnipeg)
--the prudent choice at YOW would have been to fill the tanks until they were full, that way you have certainty.

After giving Cpt Pearson his gong for safely landing I would have beached him. The root cause was his decision to press on from YOW with fuel uncertainty. He may have thought he had the right answer, but it was clear that everyone was in a state of confusion over exactly how much fuel they actually had on board.

Actually flew the Glider once YWG - YYZ, ca. 1994.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineBbinn333 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3268 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
No, it was YOW-YEG. As already mentioned the flight routing was YUL-YOW-YEG

Really because AC 143 departed from YMX


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4762 posts, RR: 43
Reply 16, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3240 times:



Quoting Bbinn333 (Reply 15):
Really because AC 143 departed from YMX

No.

AC143 was YUL-YOW-YEG



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinePnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2201 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

There was a nice tribute on the CBC news last night for the captain, showing a parade in Gimli yesterday. It is the towns claim to fame so you can't fault them for trying to make the best of it. Showed the two kids who frantically pedalled off the runway to avoid the plane now as adults, riding up on their bikes and their words of thanks to the Captain for his heroic handling of the aircraft to avoid injuries to all those who were on the airstrip that day.

User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2951 posts, RR: 37
Reply 18, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3211 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 14):

--the prudent choice at YOW would have been to fill the tanks until they were full, that way you have certainty.

After giving Cpt Pearson his gong for safely landing I would have beached him. The root cause was his decision to press on from YOW with fuel uncertainty. He may have thought he had the right answer, but it was clear that everyone was in a state of confusion over exactly how much fuel they actually had on board.

Well, yes and no.

A full fuel load would of probably ended them up over Max Landing Weight at YEG. Not to mention the cost involved would about double for the fuel.

Remember the MEL had a glaring hole in it about the qty gauges, to the point where the crew confirmed that they could operate with both gauges inop, and person at operations did not know for sure and admitted later that they had not been trained on the 767 yet. The crew did nothing wrong by departing with the inop gauges under their rules. The fueler made a mistake in the conversion, and admitted he wasn't sure about the numbers and ran the equasion more than once. He also admitted to being tired at the time and under pressure to get the plane fueled on time. So he used the wrong conversion and there we are. The fuel slip he used was deemed "unreadable" by the TC investigators.

I wouldn't blame the crew unless you give the fueler (gave the crew the wrong fuel figures), AC Operations (wrong MEL info) and AC Maintenance (didn't fix the gauges during the overnight stop at YUL) the same level of blame, they are all equally culpable.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3099 times:



Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 18):
A full fuel load would of probably ended them up over Max Landing Weight at YEG. Not to mention the cost involved would about double for the fuel.

Don't think so. For the HGW version of the -200, MTOW was 315,000 lb, and MLW was 271,000 lb and change (source: http://www.zap16.com/civ%20fact/civ%20Boeing%20767-200.htm ). From Tech Ops I get nearly 10k pph fuel burn @ M 0.801 @ cruise alt ( http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/173258/ ) so @ 4+ hours YOW - YEG, that would translate into a landing nearly at, but not actually at, MLW.

And that doesn't take into account headwinds plus the fact the a/c was lightly loaded.

Yes, enough blame to go around, but the Captain has the final word.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24084 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3082 times:



Quoting Bbinn333 (Reply 15):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
No, it was YOW-YEG. As already mentioned the flight routing was YUL-YOW-YEG

Really because AC 143 departed from YMX

Why do you say that? At that time only AC international (except USA) flights used YMX All domestic flights used YUL.


User currently offlineBbinn333 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
Why do you say that? At that time only AC international (except USA) flights used YMX All domestic flights used YUL.

Because In the video it says YMX


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4762 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (5 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2969 times:



Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 19):
Yes, enough blame to go around, but the Captain has the final word.

Yes, that is the law, and Captain Pearson publicly accepted that responsibility. However ...

If there is no up-to-date MEL published, as the B767 was new and the MEL was continually being amended, do you not believe Maintenance Control when they tell you the aircraft was legal to depart?

If the fueller tells you he loaded the aircraft in Kilos, when in fact he mistakenly loaded the aircraft in pounds, why would you not believe him?

If on two separate occasions, two different mechanics made the identical mistake when drip checking the tanks, why would you think an error is made?

This was the classic "Swiss Cheese" accident.

The law clearly states that the Captain has the final responsibility to ensure there is proper fuel loaded with legal reserves. And as I said, Captain Pearson was quite open to accepting that responsibility. But, at some point in time, when one can't do everything, you have to accept that the people working with you and giving you information are giving you correct information.

But ... with all accidents, it has caused the change of several procedures within Air Canada. For example:

If the MEL is changed, or not what is written on the aircraft, Maintenance MUST bring a paper copy to the aircraft of the new MEL and all must agree.

If a drip check is done, it must be performed by two separate mechanics now AND one of the pilots. AND ... the numbers must be verified by Maintenance Control.

A fuel calculation is done for every departure, and the numbers much be correct, or find out why not before the aircraft can depart.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineConnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (5 years 9 months 22 hours ago) and read 2906 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 22):
If a drip check is done, it must be performed by two separate mechanics now AND one of the pilots. AND ... the numbers must be verified by Maintenance Control.

Overall agree with you. IIRC correctly, the dripstick issue was where the errors crept in, as several different figures for fuel on board, either in lbs or kilos, were produced, both by groundlings and the crew. There was no certainty -- which is where I think a judgmental error occurred.

It's also a good thing that a 'Lessons Learned' exercise was done to try to preclude a re-occurrence of this situation.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineERJ135 From Australia, joined Nov 2000, 679 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (5 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

Thank you Viscount 724 for the links to video.


I remember when the DC-3 was new!
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