Falcon84 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 14943 posts, RR: 82 Posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16614 times:
Beware those who try the old "hidden city" scam.
I had a party of 4 not show up for a CLE-CMH flight on the 14th of July. They came in from PHX. They were showing returning today, 23 July, CMH-CLE-PHX. Having seen a few of these in my days, I did not protect the record when they didn't show up for the flight on the 14th, allowed it to cancel, and documented the record.
Well, as expcted, they showed up in CLE on the 23rd, having never been in CMH. The agent who got them advised them of the fare rules, and the fact that their reservation for the 0900 flight, flt 269, CLE-PHX had been cancelled. They were rerouted at 1240 CLE-IAH-PHX, and after change fees and additional collection of fares, it cost them about an extra $1800 for the trip.
So, if you thnk you can save a couple hundred bucks by putting in a "hidden city"-in this case, CMH was the "hidden city", better beware. It may cost you 3 times that if you're caught.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 10758 posts, RR: 9 Reply 4, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16584 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1): And you also lost CO all future revenue they would get from these passengers. They will never fly CO again.
But when they try the same thing on other major carriers they'll have the same problem. All carriers now cancel the rest of the itinerary after a no-show.
Falcon84 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 14943 posts, RR: 82 Reply 6, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16559 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1): And you also lost CO all future revenue they would get from these passengers. They will never fly CO again.
CO should send you a bill.
Quoting CLE757 (Reply 2): rules are rules...let them scam someone else.
Exactly. They can go somehwere else and try to scam. Or, are you saying it's OK for those people to break the rules, but not OK for us to enforce them.
BNAtraveler From United States, joined Dec 2003, 281 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16526 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): But when they try the same thing on other major carriers they'll have the same problem. All carriers now cancel the rest of the itinerary after a no-show.
WN does not. Guess who is now more "business friendly."
Boston92 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3342 posts, RR: 8 Reply 8, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16529 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): But when they try the same thing on other major carriers they'll have the same problem. All carriers now cancel the rest of the itinerary after a no-show.
Well, yeah...the passengers were stupid to have the hidden city as the origin instead of the destination. Everyones trip wold be cancelled in that situation.
I guess my whole point is:
Should I pay $510 for a SBA-LAX flight, or pay $81 for a SBA-LAX-OAK flight with no checked bags. Honestly, what would you do?
[Edited 2008-07-23 11:53:57]
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
TWFirst From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6026 posts, RR: 57 Reply 9, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16526 times:
Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter): So, if you thnk you can save a couple hundred bucks by putting in a "hidden city"-in this case, CMH was the "hidden city", better beware.
No.
CLE was the "hidden city"... that's where they were really going. Hidden cities are always the connecting city.
I've thought a lot about this and I'm afraid I don't believe this policy makes good business sense... but, then again, I'm not managing the airlines.
TWFirst From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6026 posts, RR: 57 Reply 11, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16503 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8): Well, yeah...the passengers were stupid to have the hidden city as the origin instead of the destination.
That's not what happened.
Passengers were routed PHX-CLE-CMH. They didn't take the CLE-CMH segment, thus their return CMH-CLE-PHX was cancelled by Falcon84.
Falcon84 From United States, joined Sep 2004, 14943 posts, RR: 82 Reply 12, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16471 times:
Quoting BNAtraveler (Reply 7): WN does not. Guess who is now more "business friendly."
If that's their rules, fine. My company wants me to collect those fares, or make sure their collected, if customers break fare rules. And, if they don't fly us again, well, they'll have the same thing happen if they try that on DL, NW, UA, AA.
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8): Should I pay $510 for a SBA-LAX flight, or pay $81 for a SBA-LAX-OAK flight with no checked bags. Honestly, what would you do?
You can do what you want. But if I see it, I'm going to make sure we get the proper fare if the rules are broken. Fair is fair.
AirNZ From United Kingdom (Northern Ireland), joined Feb 2005, 3054 posts, RR: 12 Reply 17, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16404 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 1): And you also lost CO all future revenue they would get from these passengers. They will never fly CO again.
Too bad, it was the pax themselves who tried to be smart and ignored the Fare Rules. Not CO's fault by any means, so why are you putting the onus on the airline?
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 5): The airlines don't get scammed when you book a trip with a hidden city. They get their money, plus an empty seat on a portion of the trip.
The people who do get scammed, are the travellers who don't book the trip with the hidden city.
With respect, you're talking absolute and unadulterated nonsense.....in fact I would, again respectfully, go as far as suggesting that you actually don't have a clue what you're talking about. IMO, you certainly have no concept of what Fare Rules are.
The purpose of booking with a hidden city is to deliberately, and knowingly, circumvent the correct fare between two cities.....thus deliberately defrauding the airline for the travel you actually want to make. Therefore, can you please explain to me how you don't view that practice as 'scamming the airline' (actually, the proper wording is defrauding), but only view such passengers as the victims?
TWFirst From Vatican City State (Holy See), joined Apr 2000, 6026 posts, RR: 57 Reply 18, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16405 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 13): No. On the return, they showed up to check in at the connecting city...CLE.
EXACTLY. And as stated in the initial post, he had cancelled the return itinerary... wouldn't have mattered if they tried to board either flight in CMH or CLE.. although, granted, trying to board in CLE was more stupid.
BNAtraveler From United States, joined Dec 2003, 281 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16411 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CUSTOMER SERVICE & SUPPORT
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 12): WN does not. Guess who is now more "business friendly."
If that's their rules, fine.
From WN's Customer Service Commitment doc, page 5 and 6:
Quote:
With respect to all of our fares, Southwest Airlines does not prohibit or penalize what is
commonly known as “hidden city” ticketing, nor does it prohibit or penalize what is
commonly known as “back to back” ticketing. “Hidden city” and “back to back”
reservations and tickets are authorized for travel on Southwest Airlines. It is important to
note that your luggage will be checked to the final destination as shown in your
reservation record. Should you choose to deplane at a stopover or connection point,
you will be responsible for making arrangements to have your luggage delivered to you.
Southwest will not entertain a lost or delayed baggage claim or interim expenses in this
circumstance.
Furthermore, if you choose not to use a restricted ticket or Ticketless Travel funds that
you have already purchased, the amount you paid for your travel may be applied toward
the purchase of future travel on Southwest Airlines so long as travel will be completed
the eligibility period printed on the ticket or Ticketless Travel authorization,2. Your new
reservation may, without penalty or fee, be subject to different terms, conditions, and
restrictions. We will charge the appropriate fare for the new travel, which may mean
more money, but Southwest does not charge a “fee” for the “exchange” of tickets or
Ticketless Travel. If you apply an unused ticket, Ticketless Travel funds, and/or other
Southwest Airlines travel credit toward the purchase of a new reservation, your new
reservation record will reflect the expiration date of the oldest ticket, Ticketless Travel
funds, or Southwest Airlines travel credit used to pay for the new reservation. The
Ticketless Travel Funds expiration date will be printed on your new Ticketless Travel
Itinerary and Receipt and the expiration date of the new paper ticket (if exchanged at a
Southwest Airlines Ticket Counter) will be printed on the face of the paper ticket. No
cash refunds or credit card adjustments are made on any amounts paid for
nonrefundable tickets, including taxes, security fees, and passenger facility charges
associated with a nonrefundable fare.
Boston92 From United States, joined Aug 2006, 3342 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16395 times:
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 14): You do what you have to do, but pay the piper when he comes to collect if caught.
It's not like I make a habit out of it. Sometimes, if I can get my connection time long enough at LAX, I continue on to OAK.
I have spoken with United about this exact routing. Most of the overseas res agents say the same thing. That I can't do it and I am breaking the rules. Then I speak with an American res agent, and thay say I'd be stupid to pay that much more and I should just forget the FF mileage number, and carry my bags on.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
EWRCabincrew From Canada, joined May 2006, 5347 posts, RR: 60 Reply 23, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 16354 times:
Quoting Boston92 (Reply 21): It's not like I make a habit out of it.
Never said you did, or others for that matter. Like a lot of things in life, you do what you have to do that you seem fit. However, no matter how many times you do/don't do it, there may be a consquence. That's all.
Listen: Its no scamming the airlines (not singling out CO) because they make the money, and have the empty seat on a portion of the trip. You explain to me how the airlines are not scamming the passenger if they charge more for EWR-MIA than EWR-MIA-LAX. Don't give "supply and demand" etc. I understand why the airlines do it. Just explain how it is a moral practice.
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 20): I did. I would, but pay the price if caught. They knew what they were doing. Like getting caught speeding, you know its wrong.
Thats fair.
Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 20): Not unique to CO. Not unique to the airline industry, either.
I know.
[Edited 2008-07-23 12:09:28]
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
VS11 From United States, joined Jul 2001, 753 posts, RR: 0 Reply 25, posted (1 year 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 16321 times:
Quoting AirNZ (Reply 17): actually, the proper wording is defrauding),
The proper term is called "Fare Evasion".
26 Boston92: Sorry I singled out CO and you. You just followed the rules, and I respect that.
27 Falcon84: I actually didn't cancel it. I did not protect the return portion-and I can do that. After I close the flight, the record cancels itself when the CLE
28 Boston92: Which it should have been. If a passenger wants to book a hidden city itinerary, the least they could do, is do it correctly
30 Contrails: Agreed. This type of "trick" might have been ok in 1968, but this is a whole new world, and those who play the game have to comply with the rules. It
31 Vfw614: The story reminds of some court cases Lufthansa got involved in when they tried to enforce their fare rule on back-to-back-ticketing. They ended with
32 Khobar: It sounds like CO canceled the itinerary and thus made those same seats available for sale a second time. Since the original passengers "broke the ru
33 Falcon84: Let them take it to court. They'll lose. All the judge or the attorney will ask them is: "Did you make an attempt to learn the fare rules?" And with
34 Falcon84: That's a misconception that far too many have. The far those people paid, plus the additional, go towards their rebooked itinerary, CLE-IAH-PHX. Whoe
35 Mexicana767: I had a similar incident at United also. I had a family of four flying to BWI via PHL (SFO-PHL-BWI). After i had finished checking them in, i was tag
36 Vfw614: I am not barking up the wrong tree, I am reporting real life court cases that were decided in a court of law. For your benefit, I assume that you hav
37 Falcon84: One other thing. Most the people who do this KNOW they're breaking the rules. A few years ago, the ticket counter had a family come up going back to D
38 Falcon84: This isn't the EU. It's the U.S. We don't follow EU law here.
39 PNQIAD: May I ask the reason for such a confidence on your part. By all accounts, airlines have resisted going to a trial on the CoC issue for the fear of lo
40 AirNZ: Yes, equally correct and in legal terms knowing evading a financial responsibility to obtain travel is fraud. Okay, then you also listen. They do not
41 Vfw614: Look, all I said is that the case reminded me of a Lufthansa case (and actually a British Airways case AND actually 15 more court cases which are curr
42 Falcon84: Because people have been trying to change airline rules forever and ever, amen. And as a business, like any business, we are allowed to have our own
43 Viscount724: But, at least to me, EWR-MIA-LAX is a very roundabout and unattractive routing compared to a nonstop or a connection at a point closer to the direct
44 Vfw614: Exactly the same over here. Lufthansa, for example, has never appealed district court decisions and always paid out or settled out of court - but kep
45 MillwallSean: So the moral of the story is that if you want to do this do it on a European website because its been proven that these rules are not enforceable by c
46 YULWinterSkies: Well, for the fare they probably paid initially, that should not hurt CO that much... One less bunch of cheap travellers who nourish the price war th
47 Pcbm: Falcon Granted the rules might have been broken by these Pax, but your attitude and gloating over this issue is indicative of why US airlines will be
48 AirNZ: Yes indeed, and I would certainly agree with you 100% on that's how it should be. However, equally in fairness though, and to utilise your own commen
49 Vfw614: In the British Airways test case, the court exactly adressed this issue. I read court decisions on a daily basis and I have seldom seen a more strong
50 RwSEA: Go you! You've just helped the airline continue to screw pax and to keep perpetuating the arcane revenue models that are probably keeping them in the
51 Ikramerica: This doesn't make sense. Did they expect that they could skip the CMH-CLE flight and not have the CLE-PHX segment cancel?
52 Falcon84: Get off your high horse. The pax screwed themselves by doing something they probably knew was against the rules. I guess if we have your attitude abo
53 MPDPilot: I need to chime in here. Because the fare between the two cities is inflated. It can't cost the airline that much to operate the flight. If it did the
54 VS11: I was not trying to be picky or anything. Fraud can occur in a number of ways. The one described in the thread is fare evasion. At least that's how i
55 UN_B732: Isn't it the travelers stupidity that did them in? Booking a round-trip into CMH, knowing that after CLE-CMH everything is auto canceled, and you can'
56 MPDPilot: Or it could have allowed an over booked flight go out full with no unhappy passengers.
57 Pcbm: Falcon .... Why are you so bitter... tell me you have never "tried" to get away with something, be it being charged the wrong price at the supermarke
58 N202PA: Amazing, the arrogance displayed on these forums and others in favor of bloated legacy carriers. That's the same sort of arrogance, mind you, that wi
59 Junction: I'm not sure about all this. At first this sounded like a pretty good argument, but it's more like "if you buy a bottle of beer and throw away half,
60 N202PA: Disagree completely. You've bought that seat. It's your space for that flight. If you don't want to fly in it, that's your business. Think about it l
61 MrBrightSide: And that is exactly the reason why US airline industry is in the toilet. Not oil, attitude. Actually, by having two different prices for the same seg
62 VS11: I do not think this is gloating. Basic doing one's job. There are no free lunches. At some point, someone has to pay. If the pax did not like what th
63 Pcbm: Lets go with this beer bottle analogy... Its like buying a six-pack that you can only remove the bottles in a specific order. Or I buy a big bottle wi
64 Falcon84: So the customer has no responsibility in ths matter? That's what you're saying. I may not like the rules either, but I'm there to enforce them. And j
65 Pcbm: Read Falcons posts..its drooping in attitude and glee.. What free lunch.... the product the airlines sold was bought... just not used as per the rule
66 Falcon84: I've never heard of anything "drooping" like that Attitude? Hardly? I have gotten more than a few "good job!" kudo's from my co-workers today. If som
67 EWRCabincrew: What attitiude is that? I was stating that business practices, liked or not, are not unique to CO, the airlines or any other industry.
68 Vfw614: Well, the difference is that you have already paid for the second bottle and do not expect it to get it for free. Actually they want you to drink the
69 Typhaerion: I know that this has gotten quite a bit heated, but I think that the core of the issue is not in the word scam at all. It is in the CoC that the passe
70 Vfw614: By the way, where has Ikramerica's very detailed and convincing analysis of the legal background (reply "66") disappeared to? It was the best contribu
71 Crewchief: Wow, this is an interesting conversation. On the one hand, we have people who work for airlines saying the airlines are in the right because they are
72 Vfw614: Ever heard of consumer protection legislation and of anti-trust laws? This type of legislation is all about stopping companies using unfair standard
73 TylerDurden: Wow. Way to screw the customers! You nasty fare paying people. Beware: I'm here to catch ya not giving us enough money. Screw you for chosing us in t
74 Typhaerion: I dont think it is an or vote with your feet. I think it is an ONLY vote with your feet. If you dont like the way that a particular airline does busi
75 Lincoln: Exactly... I've "Paged Down" through large segments of the thread -- the number of people who think breaching their end of the contract with the airl
76 Typhaerion: But this is not anti-competitive. There is a lot of competition on that route. They could have gone with four or five different airlines to get betwe
77 ScottB: This particular business practice is unique to the airline industry. If I go to Hertz and take a weekly rate (typically 5x the daily rate), they won'
78 Typhaerion: Despite your tone.... If you didn't police the times when people were sticking premium products in cheap bundles and attempting to buy the bundle wit
79 Lincoln: Not to mention -- And I'm not sure if it's in CO's Contract of Carriage or Fare Rules specifically, but I have seen it in other carriers COC/DGR -- t
80 EWRCabincrew: Understood, but still want to know what attitude I had, that's all.
81 RwSEA: I understand all that and unfortunately it's part of doing business with the airlines, despite the fact that I see ethical problems with it. What I d
82 GSOShutout55: and this is why airlines are continuing to go down the shitter. what an awful way to get returning customers?
83 BlueFlyer: Overall, I tend to agree with CO and the CO employees, but the problem is that there are so many rules, some of them so complicated, and some of them
84 VS11: It is a free lunch. Apparantly, they never meant to go CMH but did not like the fare to CLE so booked through CLE to CMH because it was a cheaper far
85 Vfw614: That is their pricing policy. They try to enforce their pricing policy by turning it into a contractual term in a non-arm's length transaction. The c
86 Rwessel: While I don't want to get into the specifics of this case, I want to point out that it can in economic terms it may well be that the service to the hi
87 TylerDurden: It's about airline fares...not nuclear war. It's ok to be glib. It's just plain stupid to alienate your customers. In any business. And flippant? Thi
88 Mnik101: And of those 5 are making any money, WN. The legacies are digging their own grave nickel and diming passengers. They are turning so many passenger of
89 MillwallSean: I would like TylerDurden, who by profession is a lawyer, to give us more info about the US legal situation here. That would really contribute to this
90 OptionsCLE: You'll get no pat on the back from me. I'd imagine that this family just thought they were getting a deal by being lucky enough to notice a cheaper fa
91 Vfw614: The starting point is that you cannot force somebody to consume a purchased good. The reason why that person does not want to use the purchased good
92 MPDPilot: If there are rules that I feel are unfair I discuss them with my boss and we usually come to an agreement. I don't however just blindly follow rules.
93 NorthstarBoy: For those who seem to think it's okay to bend the rules to your liking, ala hidden city fares and back to back tickets, consider the following: passen
94 Falcon84: This is so hysterical. It's the CUSTOMERS who broke the rules-probably knew they did, but the big, bad, ugly airline should be ASHAMED of itself for
95 VS11: I am sorry but I have to disagree. It is about the intent to defraud. You can have many reasons to not show up for a flight but if you are sincere ab
96 Vfw614: This may or may not be the case. But it is irrelevant from a legal point of view. Every party to the contract sets rules to the effect that the advan
97 Mnik101: Said rules are rediculous to say the least, and if you think about it, these people actually saved your company money, by allowing the plane going to
98 Falcon84: These are company policies, not rules I'm going to discuss every time they come up! I've been here long enough that I know 1. there ARE exceptions to
99 Prebennorholm: To buy a flight should always be as easy as going to the baker and buy a bread. If you want more than one bread, you buy any number you want. Same wit
100 Falcon84: Don't try to patronize me. They could not get on their original 0900 nonstop because after their record cancelled, someone else booked it. So it "sav
101 Falcon84: If you would be planning to break our rules, then thank you for not flying us.
102 Lincoln: Since the Contract of Carriage has been referenced repeatedly, I figured I'd re-read it (it has been a few months) http://www.continental.com/web/en-U
103 Crewchief: Presumably everyone is on the board because they want commercial aviation to grow and prosper. Although airline employees may do a good job at enforci
104 TylerDurden: No, you did a great job! Judging by the responses--you should be promoted. Face it, there was no better way to handle it than what you did. Hopefully
105 Dlphoenix: My conclusions from this thread: 1) Southwest (which the OP still calls moo-west even though they provide a far superior product in coach) will contin
106 TLG: I wish I could, but I have a 250-mile, 4-hour drive to the nearest airport that WN serves! (upper Midwest) -TLG
107 MPDPilot: I agree with you 100% for rules that make sense. But once again there are rules that shouldn't be there. I can't tell you how many times there have b
108 Falcon84: The fare was for PHX-CMH. Got it folks? They broke the fare published for that city pair. End of story. It'd be nice if I could tell you where you ca
109 Mexicana767: Well, In a Nut shell.....since i was going out of my way to help passengers, United didnt think that it was a good idea....... After seeing this, it
110 Falcon84: Your opinion. The rules are going to stay. Thanks for coming.
111 Lincoln: See the letter I linked to in And I would be tempted to assert the "venomous response it engenders" is like the "venemous response" a caught shoplift
112 Vfw614: Why is it so difficult to understand that there is no contractual obligation to travel ? And if there is no obligation to travel, not travelling canno
113 Boston92: Actually no. If I were the people you screwed over, I would sue, and bring in YOUR CoC. It specifically says that my is fare valid between the points
114 Rwessel: Exactly true, but I wasn't so much addressing the legal issues as the economic and/or moral justification for such a policy. The airlines are clearly
115 TylerDurden: Your judgement is without question---you've shown that! So, it's ok. I'll just assume you want to thank me for expressing my opinion. (in a very diff
116 MPDPilot: Well thank you for avoiding my questions I can accept that, we can just agree to disagree.
117 Falcon84: No, it's not. The fare the customer had was published PHX-CMH. Nothng in the fare rules says you can get off in CLE. That's bogus. The rfar published
119 Prebennorholm: That's not the point. On a complicated journey there can be a hundred reasons for having to change schedule and cancel a sector or two, maybe while a
120 DLPhoenix: The rules are going to stay until the legacy carriers that stay in denial and fail to adapt go out or business. Or until a sharp lawyer garners enoug
121 Boston92: No, The rule was written terribly, and can be interpreted more than one way. Ask any lawyer. If all you did was "follow the rules" than why the hell
122 MPDPilot: Well I wouldn't expect you to break them cause you are a person who follows rules. However I get questions daily to bend the rules. I often find that
123 Vfw614: Here is some information on the pending class action (and the usual reaction of US airlines when challenged ) http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2002/0
124 N62NA: I don't work for any airline, but I wish to also compliment you for doing the right thing.
125 Falcon84: It's EXACTLY the point. In those cases, most customers will approach an agent, and we will take that into consideration. As I stated, there ARE excep
126 Atlanta: Well that is you're choice to make. In my life I have flown three airlines EA, DL and FL I'm DL Platnum Medallion and a FL A+ rewards member and I wo
127 Crewchief: I saw that; explaining it as low fare competition at the hidden city doesn't respond to the issue of negative passenger response. Once again, that is
128 VS11: Yes but there are strings attached. If you wish no strings attached, pay for a full-fare refundable and otherwise fully flexible fare. Your rights as
129 Boston92: Well think of the passengers who just have no idea that they were breaking the rules. The one that would give you a set of ????? if you said "Hidden
130 Falcon84: Ignorance is no defense in that case.
131 N867DA: It's is very unfair to the consumer, but that is their rule. You can choose to abide by it, or you can take a risk and test their system. Honestly, ai
132 N766UA: My initial response was "wow, that was a dick move." But, hey, they're the ones who tried to check in at the connection point. Normally I'd say let th
133 VS11: No idea about what? Regardless of how inexperienced you are, if you want to go to CMH and buy ticket to get there, you will usually end up there as t
134 N202PA: Would I go crowing about it like I deserved a medal on an internet forum? Sorry, you really do yourself, your airline, and the rest of the industry a
135 Luv2fly: That got what was coming to them, you never do a hidden city routing on the outbound.
136 VS11: This is not CO HQ PR action. This is coming from someone who lives the industry. You did not have to read or participate if you did not like the topi
137 Falcon84: This is not in the "public eye". It's on an internet forum. I posted it because I knew it would be lively, and maybe some people could learn a few th
138 DualQual: Falcon, Remember you can't argue or reason with a large lot on this board. Most people seem to think that because we get to work around airplanes we s
139 Boston92: Who said they were ignorant. There is a difference between not knowing and being stupid. I hope you know that, and if you don't you should not work w
140 Dadoftyler: Falcon, You're right, you were just enforcing the rules. That's what your job is. However, I would hope you did it with a bit more finesse and custome
141 Falcon84: I had a lime-infused Chicken sandwich with Brie, onions and red peppers from Home Turf, as I continue to baby-sit delayed flights going East.
142 N202PA: Right. In other words, in full view of the flying public - ie, your company's customers. The internet is public, and few on it really have true anony
143 VS11: 1. It is not dumb as the airline is basing the pricing on market, not on number of flights the trip involves. 2. There is nothing harmful - the airli
144 Boston92: And the family they took $1800 from. Well, you are supposed to do the hidden city on a o/w. These people cheated wrong. Thats true.
145 Ned Kelly: The only ones commiting a scam here is CO. If they can charge for example $100 to fly PHX-CLE-CMH return & make a profit, & charge $500 to fly PHX-CLE
146 Falcon84: Spare me. In fact, all I did was not protect the record on the 14th, so it would cancel, then updated the record, telling the next agent it was a hid
147 IADCA: Almost all US jurisdictions do this to a great extent with their interpretations of several provisions of the Uniform Commercial Code. Since this is
148 Falcon84: I'm sure that's spoken from years of experience in the ariline industry, right? Enforcing published fair rules isn't a scam. It's doing what the comp
149 PiedmontINT: However, would you sue the restaurant for throwing away your meal after you decide you want to eat the desert you left behind? It's the same thing, w
150 Dadoftyler: Excellent, then. I really don't envy the counter agent that had to extract the $1800 from the family, especially when the rule just doesn't make any
151 Falcon84: She doesn't need your sympathy. She's been here as long as I have. When they went to check in on the kiosk, and the flight didn't come up, they went
152 Dadoftyler: Great, then! Keep doing your jobs and enforcing those rules. And bragging about it in public internet forums. I'm off to buy some brie and some roast
153 Boston92: Enough with this "Its not a scam, IT'S THE PUBLISHED FARE" crap. The fare rules are the scam.
154 Falcon84: ENough with "the fare rules are the scam!". That's YOUR OPINION. And, guess what? We don't enforce the rules based on YOUR opinion. The rules in the
155 Lincoln: So many people here have pointed out that WN doesn't have the same rules... don't like the rules? Fly someone that doesn't have them... Don't enter i
156 Boston92: Once again... (you avoided the question earlier)...what is so special about you following the rules that needed to post it here. If we all posted a t
157 Ridgid727: It is for sure that those pax involved did not read their contract of carriage or believe that an agent would actually discover what they did. It is a
158 Falcon84: I said it earlier. Look at reply #138. I'm happy that the rules were adhered to, eventually, and enforeced by a co-worker. It's too bad those folks a
159 MilesDependent: I think the comments and attitude of the OP are terrible. Taking such pleasure from fleecing the very people who pay your wages is really abhorrent If
160 Falcon84: I'm scared. I gave no names of the customers, and would not release that information. That is against the rules. I put in the routings, and nothing m
161 Ridgid727: I work for Continental, and I was so abhored by this thread, I sent it.
162 KirkSeattle: I was wondering the reasoning about the airfare pricing logic as it pertains to hubs and the local cities around them. Obviously CMH was cheaper than
163 Falcon84: Incredible. Talk about reaching for straws.
164 MilesDependent: Wow. What an attitude Alright, I changed my mind. I sent one as well
165 Ridgid727: That it may be. I think you've said enough, as I also have with regards to this specific transaction. The pieces will fall where they may.
168 Upcfordcruiser: http://www.aa.com/content/agency/Boo...ng/Ticketing/hidden_city_ltr.jhtml That is a great read, thanks for posting. I love some of these arguments tha
169 MD-90: Why is that correct at all? Why do German or British courts have any right to interfere with a contract that explicitly states the terms of carriage
170 Falcon84: Some of the more recent replies show that some people are filled with way too much hatred and ill will towards others. People on here, trying to tell
171 Chgoflyer: Amazing, this truely is an industry that hates it customers. I wonder do you think they will be back? Um probably not.
172 Falcon84: Most of our customers are good, decent people. Nothing to hate there. But, again, if the rules have been broken, we do reserve the right to collect f
173 UAopsMGR: The customer's that steal from you, YES... as any business would. Is it fair or "moral" that the honest guy next to you paid $800 for his ticket and
174 Chgoflyer: For most of the population fare rules read like tax code. Funny how airline staff sings from the mountain tops when a passenger breaks a rule. Howeve
175 WPIAeroGuy: Falcon84, you've made it a point that they broke the CoC. No one is arguing that. You haven't answered CrewCheif's question, which is whether these ru
176 Falcon84: Trust me, you're dead wrong. Any agent worth their salt-and most of them are-will tell you why a flight is a few hours-or even a few minutes-late. I
177 Falcon84: I can't answer that from my vantage point. I honestly need to leave that question up to those who study this stuff at corporate. The fact that this r
178 WPIAeroGuy: Sorry, I was referring to the pricing structure that allows these fare differences, not necessarily the rules about hidden-city ticketing. I understa
179 Justlump: Hey Guys, I have worked for Continental, Expressjet, and Continental Connection for the past 9 years. I agree that the hidden city rule is not the gre
180 Chgoflyer: Your first post is very much " I showed them" You dont know the circumstances, maybe they were heading to a funeral and Aunt Thelma in Cleveland want
181 Boston92: Than you explain to me how CO can make money on a $200 PHX-CLE-CMH, but somehow, they cannot make money on a $200 PHX-CLE flight???
182 Dadoftyler: Falcon, You have to admit, you picked at an open sore with this post.....the flying public doesn't like this rule, doesn't understand it, certainly do
183 Chgoflyer: Fare rules are best understood by those who write them, I think you over estimate the traveling public when you assume that they study what fares bes
184 Falcon84: Neither do you, and, whether you like it or not, I can tell a hidden city when I see it. The fact they came back into CLE tells me as much. I would a
185 SkyguyB727: This type of situation is mentioned specifically in Rule 1 of an airline's domestic tariff (or contract of carriage). Here is the wording from Northw
186 Iowaman: And Southwest says thank you for those four passengers!!
187 UAopsMGR: Simple, they can't on either itin at those fares. But had the customer been honest and paid what they were supposed to (I realize eventually they did
188 UAopsMGR: And Continental says thank you for those four passengers that WN pissed off, and round-and-round we go.
189 Chgoflyer: Oh must be the way they walk... Ive been in business dealing with the public as long as you. When there is doubt you yeild to the side that is paying
190 Dadoftyler: Ummmm....based on the DOT customer complaint numbers, looks like the "round-and-round" is a whole lot more one-sided on the WN side than you think bu
191 ScrubbsYWG: this thread is interesting.... since morality has come up, and reasoning given was that rules are to be followed, a contract was entered into, and the
192 Chgoflyer: Blah Blah Blah, The passenger also understood that the flight was going to leave at 11:15 not 2:00pm, the plane would be clean and the staff nice...
193 UAopsMGR: My point is for every customer that leaves CO dissatisfied, they pick up one from AA, DL, US, WN etc. No airline is perfect and all recieve complaint
194 Upcfordcruiser: Personally I've had nothing but good experiences on CO/BTA flights. What I hate, as a customer of the airline industry, not an employee, is those cus
195 Dadoftyler: You are precisely correct. It just seems that airline policies seem to mirror complaint percentages. The more customer unfriendly the policies, the h
196 Chgoflyer: How do you know they have not been in CMH? You dont.
197 UAopsMGR: Would you agree that as a consumer you have the right to take your business elsewhere if you feel you are being treated unfairly? As an adult, is it
198 Upcfordcruiser: Hmm... 4 people walking up to get boarding passes might be a good clue... would have to ask Falcon on that one. With the facts of the case only presen
199 Upcfordcruiser: Even when I'm calling the gecko for an insurance quote, I still shop around.
200 WPIAeroGuy: I would say that 44 page document is unreasonable for an ordinary traveller to understand, and that while they may have purposely been using hidden c
201 UAopsMGR: First, the fact is this policy is pretty much universal across the board. Second, I worked in the industry as a manager long enough to know that DOT
202 Chgoflyer: Based on the facts. 1. The airlines industrys pricing in certin markets is completely stupid. I dont really care to hear any whining about SW driving
203 Dadoftyler: Ummm...wow...no, it's not. Not unless you disregard the nation's largest air carrier. That's a nice spin on the subject. But the simple fact of the m
204 UAopsMGR: None. It went out the window when oil prices doubled.
205 Chgoflyer: The Chicago Transit Authority estimates it realizes 2million per year in un used transit cards. I bet Uniteds figures are a little different. The air
206 Upcfordcruiser: Direct from Continental.com after a 10 second search. http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/content/CIC/bookticketpolicy.aspx Yes they lost money, but
207 SFO2SVO: Falcon84, you did the correct thing. Your customers were wrong. But I am glad you are not working in any of the airports I mostly fly from. Even more
208 UAopsMGR: It's based on making money in an industry that's traditionally difficult. To clarify, are trying to imply that the sorry state of affairs with our ai
209 Falcon84: I had no doubt. And I was proven right, as they showed up in CLE, not CMH, for the return. Next question. I know they didn't fly the itinerary they p
210 MilesDependent: In your example, the freight company would receive less money than was expected at the time the contract was entered into. This is a plain breach of
211 MilesDependent: Hmm... I am not a specialist at airline fuel calculations. However, I understand that pax are assumed a certain weight (recently changed after the co
212 EA CO AS: Good job, Falcon! I'm proud of you. All ASAs should be as thorough!
213 Allpress: thats just stupid... wow.. CO may loose one customer... but they will pick up 3 more.. so big deal.. they deserve it for trying to scam them play wit
214 Moek2000: This is kinda off topic, but funny story... I once booked a BNA-TPA-BNA on NW. I was home over break in Nashville but I go to school in Memphis. The r
215 McMax: The basic tenet of contract law is that each party is making an agreement with the other party based on certain rights and duties. When a passenger i
216 Vfw614: Thanks for clearing that up. I was hoping for someone being able to explain the issue under US contract law. I am somewhat at a loss that there seems
217 VonRichtofen: Hidden city rules are complete horseshit. The airline isn't losing any money, how the hell could they be if they charge a lower fare to fly a passenge
218 GreenIsle: This practice of charging extra for a partially used service (where the service is prepaid in full) is a smack in the face to the customer. A service/
219 Revelation: And why doesn't it make any sense? Why does it cost 2x/3x/4x more to fly PHX-CLE than it does to fly PHX-CLE-CMH? Because CO is using MONOPOLISTIC pr
220 Fsnuffer: All. Please read the Terms of Carriage http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...ontract_of_carriage.2008070701.pdf There will be a test tomorrow on this
221 Falcon84: The fuel is onboard before the final passenger count. Trust me.
222 AirTran737: Falcon, you and I don't see eye to eye on many things, but on this one I am totally with you. These passengers tried to scam the system, and they got
223 Kalvado: So it should be cheaper to carry 100 lb of fuel + 200 lb of payload than just 100 lb of fuel? Wow, i guess they load additional ballast when plane is
224 PNQIAD: Anyone with similar sentiments just doesn't get it - do they? If everyone posted about how they did their job as they were expected to - this board w
225 IADCA: Then please cite the antitrust laws that this violates. This is an antitrust argument, not a contract one. A liberty that you contracted yourself out
226 Revelation: I am a layman, so I don't have laws to cite, but surely it is well known that it is illegal to use monopoly positions to drive competition out of a m
227 IADCA: Yes, but those are straightforward "void for illegality" contracts based on the Constitution (first case) and statutes (second one). Here, there's no
228 Jhooper: I read about the first half of the replies above, and I just can't stand to read any more. Falcon84, what really bothers me is how thrilled you seem t
229 VS11: That's rather unwarranted. First, if you travel enough on a particular airline, the airline would know it, and your frequent flier status would refle
230 Revelation: Yes, I agree, but from what I've read here it seems clear that the airlines don't want a court case to settle things one way or the other. No problem
231 Chgoflyer: Thats an excellent point and the root behind much of my arguement. Where are these low fares? I never enjoy them. Example I have a trip this week ORD
232 WPIAeroGuy: Actually, if you read the CO CoC it explicity states that CSA's don't have the authority to waive fees or conditions and those can only be approved b
233 Ridgid727: Jhooper, it always amazes me how our companies spend literally millions of marketing dollars to gain the trust, support & loyalties of customers, mar
234 VS11: Well, you can never know if your agent is a supervisor or not or what s/he can do for you. Just because you see an agent checking you in does not mea
235 Chgoflyer: VS I have to say in complete honestly I have never had any fees waived, no complimentary upgrades etc and I am Platinum on AA. What that status does
236 Jhooper: Nope, I can't say I'm elite yet, but I'm 80% of the way there with CO! I'm not saying he shouldn't do his job and enforce the rules. I am saying he s
237 Lincoln: Going "out of his way" would have been to protect the segments so they wouldn't auto cancel. He documented the PNR so that the agent who got the pax
238 MHTripple7: That's not always true. I recently flew South African from LVI-JNB-CPT and the check-in agent refused to tag our bags to CPT and said we would have t
239 VS11: Well, sorry to hear that. I cannot speak for every airline but what I can tell you is that agents do not like to complicate their work days and that
240 RedFlyer: I had to laugh at this comment you made, Falcon84. First of all, you're in the wrong line of work. Customer Service reps in any industry should not l
241 Avek00: Falcon, You did the right thing! What many here fail to realize is that the rules against hidden-city ticketing and other practices are in fact financ
242 Jhooper: Why is that? Is it because Southwest knows how to run a business? They know how to treat customers right and have employees who are pleasant to deal
243 N202PA: You mean...Southwest actually prices their fares so that they make a profit? Kinda flies in the face of the never-to-be-challenged A.net wisdom that
244 N202PA: Well said. Unfortunately, the OP can't seem to grasp the fact that: a) though technically correct, his attitude is downright embarrassing, b) continu
245 Pcbm: Finally a wave of sensible contributions !!!
246 UAopsMGR: Trust me they're out there. For example, I'm headed to a conference in southern California in December. If I wanted to fly economy, the fare is $99 o
247 EA CO AS: Why shouldn't he be thrilled? He got extra business for his company in the form of money they were due. And yeah, they WERE part of a scheme to rip o
248 Boston92: Actually, no. This did not save CO anything. Even the OP said that the money was completely extra (and totally unnecessary).
249 Cschleic: If you try a hidden city on just a one-way (say, returning on a different carrier), then someone could make it work out? The second leg of the ticket
250 Pcbm: airlines are loyalty based businesses... since there are few differntiating factors The loyalty business model is a business model used in strategic m
251 WPIAeroGuy: Will you stop saying they're "defrauding" like they're some ciminal masterminds? If they did have as much malintent as you think they do, that would
252 EA CO AS: I don't work for CO and I don't 'man a counter', but thanks for the insult anyway. I guess I'll have to learn to live with your disappointment. You d
253 Pcbm: EA CO AS, I never said you worked for CO, and I appoogize for assuming you were ground staff, your responses were very "agent like" . PcbM
254 WPIAeroGuy: That is NOT what I'm saying. I'm saying they did this not knowing they were breaking a rule. They probably figured they were just getting a deal. It'
255 UAopsMGR: Speculative. With all due respect, you, and no one on this site for that matter, know what these 4 passengers were trying to do when they bought the
256 AirNZ: Sorry, but I can't agree and while I respect your opinion and their defence, everything you are saying is based on assumption of what you thought the
257 N202PA: I think that cuts both ways. Intuition notwithstanding, the OP doesn't know what the passengers' situation was either, and nor do the people who are
258 WPIAeroGuy: EXACTLY which is why EA CO AS, Falcon84, VS11, and others should stop calling them scammers and defrauders. You're right, I don't know exactly what t
259 UAopsMGR: Agreed. The fact remains, regardless of the circumstances, they violated CO's CoC and Falcon was justified in collecting the difference in fare. Peri
260 UAopsMGR: Scammers, maybe not. Defrauders, YES! Intentional or not, who knows. Def. DEFRAUD- to cheat somebody out of money.
261 VS11: I do not recall calling them scammers or defrauders even though I believe they are. All I said is that they bought their tickets in bad faith i.e. th
262 N202PA: And what justifies the OP coming on here, a public forum, to crow about taking $1,800 from his company's customers, with a major attitude to boot? Pl
263 Pcbm: Let stick tot he subject.... NO-ONE on this thread has disputed the rules were broken, that is not disputed. The conversation revolves around two issu
264 Khobar: At the gate the customer has already purchased the ticket, thus they have already agreed to terms and conditions they have not seen. Same thing at th
265 EA CO AS: So does that mean you forgive a debt you're due, then? Try that argument with other businesses and see how well you do: "Sorry, I didn't know I could
266 VS11: If you read the original post, it starts and ends with a warning against the practice and what it may mean financially for someone who does it. In fa
267 Chgoflyer: This has been my point all along. Both sides of the debate have offered valid points of view. The fact is CO did not know the situation and assumed t
268 UAopsMGR: The onus is on the consumer to understand the product they are buying. Is the onus on the BMW dealership to explain to me all the ins and outs of the
269 Pcbm: And in NONE Of these cases are you paying less for more.... just choosing not to use the "more" part....
270 UAopsMGR: You would think if there were extenuating circumstances that would have come out when asked to fork over $1800.
271 Ridgid727: It is on you. BUT----> If you were berated by a dealership and taught a good lesson about understanding your purchase and penalized , you wouldn't go
272 VS11: Rest assured that the airlines learnt long time ago that by far the majority of pax will go with the cheapest option so no one relies on your loyalty
273 EA CO AS: Legally, their purchase of the ticket constitutes their tacit acceptance of the terms - even if they haven't read or don't understand them.
274 Lincoln: Go to www.continental.com In the From: box enter PHX In the To: box enter CMH Enter whatever dates you like in the "Depart" and "Return" dates boxes,
275 Revelation: See the next quote: So, in the case of CO's rules, it seems if you are a casual traveller without baggage, the only meaningful recourse CO would have
277 UAopsMGR: Agreed, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth. However, I would accept personal responsibility that I didn't read the small print. That's on me.
278 Lincoln: That's correct; and for the most part if you only pull the stunt once a year on a one-way ticket, it's not worth the effort it would take for the air
279 Luv2fly: The bottom line is they were dumb criminals! Had they done there home work and realized if you do not make the connection your whole reservation is ca
280 WPIAeroGuy: VS11, you apparently aren't reading what I'm typing or are ignoring it on purpose. You're right, they most likely had no intent to go to CMH. I never
282 Tonytifao: That was nice of you wasn't it? Are you proud of yourself? Maybe if employees were just a little more logical thinkers and think how stupid upper mgm
283 UAopsMGR: And you sure as hell would pay for it if you were caught...
284 Pcbm: Its amazing (but indicative) how when a point is made, the "the airlines are being raped" crowd stay on-message and choose not to debate the points.
285 EA CO AS: So what? Bottom line is these attempts are trying to circumvent a company's business rules, and a company has the right to keep customers from doing
286 Pcbm: The drew the comaparison.... I debunked it... and your response is "so what" If you are in the airline industry (presumption on my part)based on your
287 Vfw614: Well, let's recap once again: http://www.thetravelinsider.info/2002/0816.htm The article mentions a case where a passenger was caught doing hidden cit
288 Tonytifao: Agree 100%. Horrible customer service from your part. Nice going Falcon! Go home and think about your actions. You enjoy almost free traverl around t
289 Gajamukhu: Falcon84, I do understand that the passengers violated CO's CoC and you did your job for your employer well. However, in regard to the above comments
290 VS11: I am not ignoring anything. I just have a hard time believing that in this time and age FOUR people would go online and manage to complete a transact
291 VonRichtofen: How were they cheating CO out of money? If CO published the bloody fare themselves and would have happily flown them all the way to CMH and back, whe
292 WPIAeroGuy: Am I the only one who finds it odd that CO advertises PHX-CLE-CMH as an alternative to PHX-CLE on their very own website, yet punishes the passenger w
293 Falcon84: The fact is, that, looking at the record, after the 4 customers didn't show up, was in indication to me that they WERE using hidden cities. Again, as
294 WPIAeroGuy: I would also like to add that if you read the "rules and restrictions" after you select the flight, it makes no mention of hidden city ticketing. Also
295 Falcon84: Your opinion. It doesn't hold any water with me. If you're in my shoes, knowing the rules the way I do, you'd do the same thng. You'd deny it, but yo
296 VS11: Better buy a grammar book and learn the difference between "your" and "you're".
297 Justlump: Actually Tony, DL and AA have the same rules and policies concerning 'hidden city' violations. It is not unique to just CO or US based airlines.
298 EA CO AS: You "debunked" nothing - your argument was that they were somehow a-ok because they were paying for more flight segments than they actually took, as
299 Pcbm: Falcon - I wondered what took you so long, must be your tea-break.
300 PNQIAD: Then what was the reason to initiate the post in the first place and appear to gloat doing so? Are we going to see posts from you like "I helped some
302 Vfw614: Well, it only took 291 posts until somebody demonstrated that there have been contract law-based court cases in the US as well and not only over here
303 Pcbm: True.. but obviously not on the debating society... Is that chip on your shoulder heavy?
304 WPIAeroGuy: If thats the arguement YOU'RE going to bring then I'm going to be leaving this thread.
305 LASOctoberB6: I still don't fully understand the initial problem. Can someone help me out here?
306 EA CO AS: Obviously neither are you, as resorting to ad-hominem attacks (this is the second time you have done so) displays a stunning lack of ability to artic
307 Chgoflyer: We have enjoyed a good heathy exchange/debate so far.... lets leave the name calling out of the thread.
308 Pcbm: "repeting the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of prov
309 Chgoflyer: This is another area that I will respectfully disagree. I would hope they never come back. It amazes me that a multi billion dollar industry believes
310 Tonytifao: Last year I spent over 100k with airline tickets. I'm glad I didn't spend it on Continental! OKAY OKAY OKAY OKAY!!!! OKAY OKAY OKAY OKAY!!!! OKAY OKA
311 Ridgid727: Its like this. go to United's Website, and price out a one way ticket in the following city pairs. BOISE (BOI) to Portland (PDX) for Aug 7. the first
312 Tonytifao: Hey Falcon, did you ever drive over the speed limit in your life? Just curious!
313 UAopsMGR: Simple...The bloody fare they paid from PHX-CMH was lower than what CO could collect from PHX-CLE.
314 Tonytifao: The airline should make the fare from PHX-CMH higher!
315 UAopsMGR: You're missing the point. If CO advertises CMH as an alternative to CLE, it does not mean the fare will be the same or that they won't be penalized i
316 UAopsMGR: I'm sure if they could and stay competitive they would.
317 N202PA: Exactly. Given that we are now talking about the morality of the rule rather than the validity...If airlines price their product stupidly, is that th
318 UAopsMGR: Is any business at fault for trying to earn a profit. Last I checked, airlines are not NPO's!
319 Falcon84: Your view, which I don't share. For the most part, this has been a very good thread, as people have been giving their views, pro or con, on this. Tha
320 VS11: The airline is not responsible for the mental capacities of each pax. They offer a service and they will price it in ways that they deem necessary an
321 Pcbm: Falcon Thank you for that insight of how we got here, appreciated. We agree the rule was broken, and correclty applied. Do you feel the rule its-self
322 Luv2fly: OMG'd there are just as many if not more people who will avoid DL any chance they get. And the DL minions would most likely have handled it the same
323 Chgoflyer: That would solve a lot of issues. Plus it would allow airlines to act like real business and compete based on service rather than price. I do not kno
324 4holer: Well... I'm reminded of the scene in "Meet the Parents", where Focker is waiting in the completely empty gate area to board the plane, and the smug ga
325 Khobar: First, read the CO CoC and you will find the term "Hidden Cities Ticketing". The term is defined in the CoC. Next, do as you suggest with the links y
326 Rampart: I'm not sure what you were expecting, posting this thread. You are taking a lot of grief, and also getting awfully defensive about it at the same tim
327 VS11: It is not going to solve any issues. The end result would be direct service from PHX-CMH is too expensive and demand will drop and the service will g
328 Falcon84: I didn't know either, to be honest. I figured there'd be some discussion on the merits of the rules, and the like, but I didn't expect this. The grie
329 Billreid: I think the problem is the attitude. If you call them dumb criminals, then they will act like dumb criminals. At the same time if a compny trats empl
330 Upcfordcruiser: Arguments of right and wrong aside, Falcon isn't paid to INTERPRET policy, he's paid to ENFORCE it. I've been in his shoes where I came across a polic
331 Chgoflyer: I dont think anyone is expecting non stop phx-cmh service, just the same price for each city as they are in the same general area. Trade offs only wo
332 Typhaerion: I read through that article, and then I went briefly digging through Ohio case law myself since I am originally from there and I was curious. That is
333 Gajamukhu: Thanks. This page summarizes the various court cases related to hidden city ticketing: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pag
334 Chgoflyer: Better yet perhaps Falcon could bring it up at the next coffee and... meeting or put it in a suggestion box. He works at Co, not the customer. Let me
335 Typhaerion: Or just tell live people before you leave the airport... It doesnt have to be dangerous. you are still being flippant where no attitude is necessary.
336 Luv2cattlecall: As someone who would love to see CO succeed and prosper, I too have voiced my concern re: this thread to CO, via EECB. I am all for rules being enforc
337 Chgoflyer: I take responsibility in my home life and professional life, not when I buy something from a company, since I paid the responsibility is off my shoul
338 N202PA: We're past that. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, Falcon is being dragged through the mud for his smarmy "well, screw you" attit
339 Falcon84: You can disagree, but I've seen it. I remember a customer who said they'd never fly us again, and saw the same person about 6 months later. The reaso
341 Bgreacofx: Falcon....I worked the ticket counter for CO for 12 years. Been there, done that, would do again if I had the chance. You did the right thing.
342 TLG: People have been traveling on hidden-city itineraries for a long time, and some will continue to do so, CoC or no CoC. It's a cat-and-mouse game betwe
343 RedFlyer: You didn't expect this because you're prone to mis-judging, which is a classic symptom of being unable to see the big picture. You started this threa
344 MilesDependent: No good can come from this (for you). I'd be asking admin to delete it if I were you.
345 Lincoln: When it was in fact mechanical... On CO that is 0. (The one time I thought I was going to catch them in a lie about three years ago, I pulled up some
346 HPAEAA: Falcon, I must admit you do put up some great comments, but sometimes you have to have compassion... yes the company rules technically state that you
347 N202PA: Exactly. The more you post with that attitude, Falcon, the more you're pissing people off. And, perhaps, encouraging them to report you even more.
348 WPIAeroGuy: Can someone explain where, when booking a ticket on CO's website, you have to accept the contract of carriage, or that the CoC is even mentioned? How
349 UAopsMGR: Wow, how long will this thread go? The horse is dead, and has been beaten. It's time to agree to disagree.
350 Lincoln: Among other places, It's in the footer of every page: Contract of Carriage | Customer First | Legal Information | Privacy Policy | Site Map | Travel
351 Falcon84: The kooks who want to report me, for God-knows what, have the problem. Not me. Thank you. Uh, OK. Whatever the heck that means. I guess if I'm simply
352 Mirrodie: If your intent is to truly save us all $1800 by not engaging in such behavior, then its admirable. Honestly, when I read your opening post, my first
353 Delta Fly Boy: I am a gate agent for DL, and am just curious about how it happened, cause at DL if you don't show up for a flight, you're return legs automatically c
354 SkyguyB727: As a gate agent, I just had a passenger today who bought a ticket from city X to city Z with a connection at city Y. She told me, to my face, that she
355 Zone1: Falcon, what would have happened if there CLE-CMH flight was weather delayed or it had some other irops, and they decided not to take it? I ask becaus
356 AirNZ: Sorry, but are you actually trying to be serious? Are you seriously asking why one has to accept an airline's Contract of Carriage in order to book a
357 WPIAeroGuy: AirNZ, I apologize I missed a very important word. The question should have asked WHERE you must accept the Contract of Carriage. There is no mention
358 Falcon84: Of course, you always get satisfaction for doing a good job. If I do a really quick turn, and get an aircraft in and out in under 20 minutes, I feel
359 Chgoflyer: Thats excellent news and a reason to fly CO.
360 IliriBDL: Great post Lincoln, this should have ended the debate much earlier. And great job Falcon, and don't worry about all the bad comments you're getting h
361 McMax: I respectfully disagree. The position of the airline is this: the terms of the Contract of Carriage are built into the contract you make with the air
362 Lincoln: Right. The Contract of Carriage is kind of like the End User License Agreement for software; parts of it may not make sense but it is a binding and e
363 FlyingAY: However, not everything that is in the EULA binds the customer, even in the US. (see Step-Saver v. Wyse or Softman v. Adobe) I quite frequently buy R
364 Jmc1975: And this one time, at band camp, my girlfriend bought a ticket on UA routed BWI-IAD-PHX-IAD-BWI. She originated out of BWI, but since she lived closer
365 N202PA: Okay, so you see absolutely nothing wrong with coming on a public forum and proclaiming that Continental Airlines loves to play "Gotcha" with it's cu
366 VonRichtofen: I have yet to see a post that explains exactly how it is scamming the airlines. How can it be scamming if the airline posted the fare itself and woul
367 TUNisia: It's the American way. I don't know why people whom are prone to vindictive power trips are ever put in customer service positions.
368 LASOctoberB6: Oh, thank you so very much. I'm pretty astounded at how terrible this thread has gone over. It's elementary, really..
369 Rampart: As if people are posting without "thinking about it". We're all thinking, just not agreeing. No crime in that. Some replies are a bit hot-headed, tho
370 Jhooper: Hell, even if he had left out the part "I felt like we let them down" and "how do you all think we can change this rule to be more equitable"........
372 EA CO AS: I want to see the look on their faces as the credit card got swiped. Cha-ching!
373 Pcbm: Quote from article see link below: Given the option of buying a “legal” but more expensive fare and cheaper one that the airlines don’t like, tr
374 Prebennorholm: The pupose of having an airline is having a servant to fulfil the needs of the traveling public. That's the only reason for having airlines. The needs
375 Sbworcs: I agree that the customers (not criminals) violated the Conditions of Carriage for Contintental by booking a hidden city routing - not many people on
376 Falcon84: Just a little update. I took my daughter to the airport this morning. She was flying WN to MCO today. I stopped over at our ticket counter on the way
377 WPIAeroGuy: Lincoln, you can keep trying to rationalize it, but the fact is the buyer never explicity agrees to the CoC. The Fare Rules and Restrictions don't ev
379 Luv2fly: The attitude coming from this thread should only work to show people why some front line employees are like they are when dealing with the public. The
380 Typhaerion: I apologize for not getting back to your sooner... If what you say were really the case, then why not show up to the airplane naked? Once you have bo
381 Lincoln: Yes. You. Do. What's getting lost here is the semantics that the ticket embodies the contract of carriage -- the ticket is the contract of carriage,
382 IADCA: I don't mean to butt in too much on your argument, but one angle of this I think you might be missing is the economic efficiency one that comes up in
383 WPIAeroGuy: THERE IS NO BOX TO CHECK! You are all assuming that there is one. I went through the booking process several times up until a card would need to be p
384 Falcon84: Wrong. Completely wrong. Someone said on here I should just not do such deals. Well, when you work for a company, you take on certain responsibilitie
385 IADCA: Okay, I went through the process. I have to say, I'm rather astounded that you get that far in the process without having to agree to the CoC. Howeve
386 N202PA: You don't seem to be too particularly concerned about your job, coming on here bragging about bagging $1,800 and making yourself and your airline see
387 Boston92: Two things: 1) If this family, or any other family, challenged this...I can almost assure you that they would win. So, in actuality, CO stole the $18
388 Vfw614: However, I think we can agree that the terms of a CoC are not even remotely akin to "a law". It is just something a private individual has set up and
389 Ridgid727: You are right, but gloating about it and in a bragadosio fashion in a public forum changes everything. And Yes, Continental has received copies of th
390 Pcbm: There are no laws that dictate how an airline ticket may be used, Carriers are incorrect when they term b2bs and hidden cities “illegal.” They may
391 Luv2cattlecall: Absolutely not - no apologies from me. I have friends that work at CO and you are doing a disservice to them...not the other way around. Don't worry,
392 Vfw614: One question I have asked myself over this thread is how legacy airlines would defend their pricing and the resulting fare rules in an anti-trust cour
393 N202PA: Sounds like something brown is about to hit the fan. Yikes. That aside, I have to say that the legal analysis by IADDCA and Vfw614 has been most inte
394 Typhaerion: Maybe. Depends on how specific you want to be. I would say a rule is a rule, no matter what. I will use my speeding example again. There are some mal
395 Mirrodie: Wrong. You are there to both interpret and inforce the rules. Your interpretation began when you said, in the opening post, "Having seen a few of the
396 FrmrCAPCADET: Hidden city, back to back, weekend stay requirement, high rebooking fees - The customer is the enemy. If it is on my company's dime, maybe I tolerate
397 Vfw614: "Rule" in that sense is just a description how someone wants to control, so to speak, an individual's behaviour. If it is a private individual, this
399 WPIAeroGuy: Thank you, I'm glad someone went and actually looked through the process. I apologize for getting heated, this was an interesting debate.
400 777STL: I think all airline employees on here should make note of this thread. It doesn't matter if he was right or wrong to begin with, when you get on here
401 Charlienorth: Amazing...a guy does his job and you people want his head...grow the frick up...is it ok for me to buy a big screen T.V. the day before the superbowl
402 Typhaerion: ***** I am not a lawyer, only an engineer. Take this into account with what you read. ***** No arguments there. In fact I would go as far as to say t
403 PNQIAD: I have said it once before and say it again - I don't think anyone would have cared a bit if the OP had just done his job and shut up. I think most p
404 ABQopsHP: Are you kidding me? Falcon is not about to lose his job over this. He is enforcing company policy, which is something we all are paid to do. Good job
405 Ridgid727: I would take issue with you on this. Doing his job Yes, Broadcasting it in this manner doesn't show seasoned or professionalism on anyones part. Whil
406 Chgoflyer: Your points are valid and well stated. My points for the entire thread however are moot. Ive read Falcons statement that the passengers told the agen
407 VS11: That's what Falcon did. He made sure that the customer IS indeed the profit. He acted accordingly!!! Please, said Danielle could not find a cheaper f
408 Typhaerion: I agree if debate over the issue was its true purpose. It did come off a little houghty in the title. Moreover, I dont think these people were out to
409 777STL: No one is arguing that what he did was wrong. It's the way he went about broadcasting it on here and the perception he's generating for himself and h
410 CV880: He really didn't do anything except let the computer system go ahead and cancel the remainder of the itinerary, which it would have done anyway. It's
411 N202PA: More of the arrogance often displayed by legacy carrier employees. To paraphrase Lily Tomlin: "We don't care, we don't have to, we're the airlines."
412 Falcon84: Jesus Christ, I guess I can't win. If I say it one way, then someone will say "oh, then it's all about saving your precious job", and if I say it ano
413 N202PA: Then pipe down, ask the Admins to delete this thread, and save your job while you can. Criminey. It's been spelled out for you seven ways from Sunday
414 VS11: It makes sense, and I agree with it. Money laundering works in the same way: companies entering into contracts which defy reason but are nevertheless
416 N202PA: Didn't say you were. Just that your statements match the arrogance of legacy carrier employees - such as the OP.
417 VS11: I am not going to be drawn into a personal attack. You can choose to ignore the thread at all, if you do not like it. I did not see any value in your
418 Mirrodie: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...eneral_aviation/read.main/4081063/ Please continue as there as this thread is being archived.
419 777STL: Look, I'm just telling you what I've seen in the past. Your company probably wants front line peons like yourself to come off as friendly, courteous
420 VS11: After 21 years, he is hardly low level....."Read carefully" I guess should be one take-away from this thread.......
421 Pcbm: - This is not about the price being charges, its about the use of the product (in this context) Of course they can win this in court (as has happened
422 UAopsMGR: Falcon is not coming off anywhere near as arrogant as some people on this thread including yourself. You need to get off your high horse. Until you h
423 4holer: Question: When you were telling your co-workers the story, were they giving you the "good job!" for catching the customers with the hidden city, or f
424 Falcon84: No, it's your perception. And, despite the fact I've told you honestly that I didn't put this on here to brag or anything-I do take satisfaction in d
425 Vfw614: Nobody takes issue with that. I also did my job today. As is the nature of the job, the result was satisfying for some, unsatisfying for others. It is
426 Falcon84: This is an airline forum, correct? I felt it would be a good discussion on hidden city ticketing, and other such practices. So, as far as I was conce
427 Vfw614: That's why I said: Given the dubious public perception lawyers enjoy, it is, however, quite brave to think (and to argue accordingly) that one's compa
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