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Air China To Drop MAD-GRU  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7384 times:
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Air China announced today in Sao Paulo that they will drop it's leg MAD-GRU (PEK-MAD will continue) effective September 15.

The decision was made because of high fuel prices and not official, growing competition on GRU-MAD route, new players to Asia (mainly EK), as well as recent immigration problems (up to now a lot of people avoid MAD as a gateway in Europe) at MAD produced a lot of fear on Brazilian travellers which begin to select CDG, MXP, FCO, LIS and other airports as a gateway.

The route begin in December 2006 as 2x weekly and during 2007 has been upgraded to 3x weekly. But since the problems in MAD, CA downgraded the flight back to 2x weekly and even during this high season, keep as 2x weekly (except for 1 week in August).

CA will keep its office in Sao Paulo.


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16931 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 7374 times:

I can't say I'm surprised--the Chinese carriers have been having a rough time sustaining international long haul flights. I still think this would be a good add for IB (MAD-PEK or MAD-PVG). They'd be better positioned to take advantage of the traffic flows.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2693 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7278 times:

That's quite unfortunate. The only other direct link between a Latin American country and China is on AeroMexico. And I wonder if this one will withstand the test of time under the current economic circumstances.

Well, go play with Air China's route map before Sao Paulo is removed from the international destinations.

http://www.airchina.com.cn/PassengerService/AirlineNetwork/gjhx.shtml

  LatinPlane

[Edited 2008-07-23 16:53:08]

[Edited 2008-07-23 16:53:46]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8873 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

They are expecting a return of the flight in early 2009. Hope it happens.


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7210 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 3):
They are expecting a return of the flight in early 2009. Hope it happens.

They couldn't sustain the flight now with huge growing on both countries imagine in one year with more competition! The problem is even being the only option to China the stop and the fact that people is looking for other destinations (which demands 2 stops). Also, they need to increase frequencies. Twice weekly if far from what we may say comfortable on a business point of view, with so many daily options.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I can't say I'm surprised--the Chinese carriers have been having a rough time sustaining international long haul flights

Agree but please note CA service MAD-PEK performs well. But they have to be in mind that they need to fly more frequently (2x weekly is too limited). They may increase the service using the availability of the A332.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineHALFA From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1339 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 7182 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
The decision was made because of high fuel prices and not official, growing competition on GRU-MAD route, new players to Asia (mainly EK), as well as recent immigration problems (up to now a lot of people avoid MAD as a gateway in Europe) at MAD produced a lot of fear on Brazilian travellers which begin to select CDG, MXP, FCO, LIS and other airports as a gateway.

Hello Felipe!
Could you elaborate a little more about this? Why are Brazilians afraid to connect in MAD? What kind of immigration problems are people experiencing there?

HALFA



HNL-PEK Starts April 2014
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7111 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
new players to Asia (mainly EK),

Among all factors, I think this is probably the key one. To PEK EK's advantage was frequency, but to PVG, on top of that the Air China routing was much inferior than Emirates'.


User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7094 times:
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Quoting HALFA (Reply 5):
Hello Felipe!
Could you elaborate a little more about this? Why are Brazilians afraid to connect in MAD? What kind of immigration problems are people experiencing there?

Brazilians face some problems during the past months at MAD immigration. They begin to be more restrictive and cases like Brazilians going to International Congress in Europe, Brazilians with some wealthy, begin refused without a major excuse grows a lot, and caused the Government of Brazil to call the Spain Ambassador in Brazil for clarifications. Even with that, Brazil retaliates doing the same at SSA and GIG during a small period of time but the problem continues till nowadays (analog cases continue to be reported by press) and because of that Brazilians are looking for LIS, CDG (mainly because of the huge number of flights) and also MXP/FCO, FRA/MUC, LHR and AMS, as a gateway to Europe.

Since this, MAD lost 14x weekly flights from Brazil.

Felipe



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7523 posts, RR: 43
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 7048 times:



Quoting LatinPlane (Reply 2):
The only other direct link between a Latin American country and China is on AeroMexico. And I wonder if this one will withstand the test of time under the current economic circumstances.

Let us hope!

Too bad that GRU is losing an "exotic" carrier.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 7009 times:
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Quoting Incitatus (Reply 6):
Among all factors, I think this is probably the key one. To PEK EK's advantage was frequency, but to PVG, on top of that the Air China routing was much inferior than Emirates'.

And also, EK flies not only to PVG but also to CAN, and with one stop only.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 6972 times:



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 6):
To PEK EK's advantage was frequency

But EK's elapsed time is several hours longer than CA. GRU-MAD-PEK and other connecting routings via LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG are almost 300 miles shorter than via DXB. (MAD is almost on the great circle route GRU-PEK). EK connections to/from PEK also require a 4 to 5 hour wait at DXB in both directions compared to CA's direct flight with about 1 hr 40 min at MAD.

While EK does have the frequency advantage vs. CA, so do BA/AF/KL/LH with daily service to PEK and PVG. There's also nonstop service from their gateways in Europe to a few other points in China.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6853 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
Air China announced today in Sao Paulo that they will drop it's leg MAD-GRU (PEK-MAD will continue) effective September 15.

Air China has a rather blurry reputation, along with China Airlines, and Aeroflot. Each of those airlines are trying to turn around their image but the past continues to haunt them time and time again. I am not sure if the MAD-GRU route even have Foreign Language Speakers aboard. It would be most interesting to know. The route would be much, much better served if flown by TAM, or connected using a European or Middle Eastern airline.


User currently offlineChinaeastern From China, joined exactly 10 years ago today! , 348 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6765 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 11):
Air China has a rather blurry reputation

please make sure that you know what you're talking about before posting


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3314 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6729 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
But EK's elapsed time is several hours longer than CA. GRU-MAD-PEK and other connecting routings via LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG are almost 300 miles shorter than via DXB. (MAD is almost on the great circle route GRU-PEK). EK connections to/from PEK also require a 4 to 5 hour wait at DXB in both directions compared to CA's direct flight with about 1 hr 40 min at MAD.

1:00a PEK 3 3:00p GRU 1 CA 907 1-Stop 330 25:00
7:00p GRU 1 5:35a+2 PEK 3 CA 908 1-Stop 330 23:35


11:55p PEK 3 6:30p+1 GRU 2 EK 307/EK 261 Via DXB 77L/77L 29:35
1:25a GRU 2 3:10p+1 PEK 3 EK 262/EK 306 Via DXB 77L/77W 26:45


On a return trip basis, the additional flying on EK is about 7 hours...

I know who I would choose...


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6615 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
new players to Asia (mainly EK),

And dont forget KE which is the carriers serving more destinations in mainland China than any other foreign player.

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
The decision was made because of high fuel prices and not official, growing competition on GRU-MAD route, new players to Asia (mainly EK), as well as recent immigration problems (up to now a lot of people avoid MAD as a gateway in Europe) at MAD produced a lot of fear on Brazilian travellers which begin to select CDG, MXP, FCO, LIS and other airports as a gateway.

I agree with the above. Immigration problems in MAD compounded with tough competition GRU-MAD (IB introduced double daily and TAM introduced daily flights) could not make Air China keep the loads and yields of the flight.

The leg MAD-GRU was vital for Air China to keep the flight.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 6):
Among all factors, I think this is probably the key one. To PEK EK's advantage was frequency, but to PVG, on top of that the Air China routing was much inferior than Emirates'.



Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 13):
On a return trip basis, the additional flying on EK is about 7 hours...

Air China frequency and product cannot be compared to EK or even any other player in Europe, see the product of AF, KL, BA, LH are all much superior to Air China.

Rgs,


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6601 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
And dont forget KE which is the carriers serving more destinations in mainland China than any other foreign player.

That's right but to fly Brazil-China on KE would mean 2 stops and going through inmigration & custons in LAX, so IMO much worse than GRU-MAD-PEK.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 7):
Brazilians face some problems during the past months at MAD immigration

Brazilians travelling GRU-PEK all the way do not have to clear inmigration at MAD, they stay within the secure area, so this affect only GRU-MAD traffic what I'd expect not to be the base of this flight because there is where the competition is with local and stronger players as IB and TAM.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
I still think this would be a good add for IB (MAD-PEK or MAD-PVG). They'd be better positioned to take advantage of the traffic flows.

Once again another signal for IB to start Asia.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6521 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 15):
That's right but to fly Brazil-China on KE would mean 2 stops and going through inmigration & custons in LAX, so IMO much worse than GRU-MAD-PEK.

You are correct.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 15):
Brazilians travelling GRU-PEK all the way do not have to clear inmigration at MAD, they stay within the secure area, so this affect only GRU-MAD traffic what I'd expect not to be the base of this flight because there is where the competition is with local and stronger players as IB and TAM.

To be very honest, I think many Brazilians would now prefer 2 stops and clear immigration in LAX rather than going through immigration in MAD. I can ensure you that the reputation of MAD is severely hit in Brazil and is heavily affecting convecting traffic MAD-GRU (see the first casualty: Air China). Many Brazilians now prefer a hassle-free connection in airports such as CDG, AMS, FRA, ZRH, LIS or FCO.

Rgs,


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 6461 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 16):
Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 15):
Brazilians travelling GRU-PEK all the way do not have to clear inmigration at MAD, they stay within the secure area, so this affect only GRU-MAD traffic what I'd expect not to be the base of this flight because there is where the competition is with local and stronger players as IB and TAM.

To be very honest, I think many Brazilians would now prefer 2 stops and clear immigration in LAX rather than going through immigration in MAD.

Seems like I didn't explain myself properly, people (regardless of citizenship) travelling on CA's GRU-PEK do NOT have to clear inmigration at MAD as they don't leave the secure area.

If the fiasco between Spain and Brazil inmigration departments is affecting CA I'd blame them for not making clear that it has nothing to do with people travelling Brazil-China via MAD.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6426 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 17):
If the fiasco between Spain and Brazil inmigration departments is affecting CA I'd blame them for not making clear that it has nothing to do with people travelling Brazil-China via MAD

I got your pint. However, we have to understand that when people learn the airplane is routed via MAD they will automatically discard this choice. It would be difficult to explain in PR terms that you do not need to go through immigration or security.

Rgs,


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 6406 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 18):
I got your pint. However, we have to understand that when people learn the airplane is routed via MAD they will automatically discard this choice. It would be difficult to explain in PR terms that you do not need to go through immigration or security.

Don't get it personal but I think that arguing the problems between Spain and Brazil is more of an excuse for CA to axe GRU. Why not rerouting the flight through AMS?

IMO it has more to do with them not being able to compete with the other options to China as AF, BA, KL, LH, EK, etc.

This situation affect much more TAM, UX and IB since their flights link Spain and Brazil only.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6299 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 19):
Don't get it personal but I think that arguing the problems between Spain and Brazil is more of an excuse for CA to axe GRU. Why not rerouting the flight through AMS?

This is not part of the bilateral. Air China's option to fly to Brazil with 5th freedom rights are limited, and exclude AMS.

Rgs,


User currently offlineJfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8089 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6268 times:
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I never understood why Air China wanted to fly to GRU and via MAD of all places. They should fly via FRA and code share with Lufthansa on teh FRA - GRU flight since LH has many daily flights to GU.

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6195 times:
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Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 15):
Brazilians travelling GRU-PEK all the way do not have to clear inmigration at MAD, they stay within the secure area, so this affect only GRU-MAD traffic what I'd expect not to be the base of this flight because there is where the competition is with local and stronger players as IB and TAM.

You're right, my point is just CA need to fill GRU-MAD flights considering they sell MAD-PEK, and they face problems with the above explained to fill such leg. Even with lower fares on GRU-MAD leg (Business R/T $ 2,970 , Economy R/T $ 870) CA was not able to fill the cabin.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
The leg MAD-GRU was vital for Air China to keep the flight.

Are you Sure ? Seems to me that they believe MAD-PEK can sustain the flight alone.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 21):
I never understood why Air China wanted to fly to GRU and via MAD of all places. They should fly via FRA and code share with Lufthansa on teh FRA - GRU flight since LH has many daily flights to GU.

Or even to LIS considering the huge Star gateway to Brazil. Of course FRA is stronger to/from China and I Agree 100% with you.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6145 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
But EK's elapsed time is several hours longer than CA.

True. That could swing some passengers towards the Air China service depending on their own needs. On the other hand, the ground time in Dubai may seem very useful to some passengers.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
GRU-MAD-PEK and other connecting routings via LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG are almost 300 miles shorter than via DXB. (MAD is almost on the great circle route GRU-PEK).

This one really does not matter. 300 miles is about 40 minutes of flying, or more, or less, depending on winds along the route. No passenger is going to make a purchase decision based on the routing being 300 miles shorter going from/to opposite sides of the globe.

Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 11):
Air China has a rather blurry reputation,

 checkmark 

Quoting Chinaeastern (Reply 12):
please make sure that you know what you're talking about before posting

Can you point to any passenger survey outside of China that shows Air China in a positive light compared to other commonly known airlines? I haven't seen it.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 14):
The leg MAD-GRU was vital for Air China to keep the flight.

Maybe you mean that local traffic MAD-GRU was vital. From their decision, MAD-PEK seems like a good flight to sustain on itself - but for every passenger MAD-PEK there was an empty seat GRU-MAD that Air China had to sell. Apparently they were not getting enough money on that deal.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 6139 times:



Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Are you Sure ? Seems to me that they believe MAD-PEK can sustain the flight alone.

I dont think GRU-PEK would be able to sustain the flight, therefore the need for a secondary stop with suitable loads and yields, something which GRU-MAD did not provide. When I said vital to keep the flight, I mean vital to keep GRU-MAD-PEK. The reasoning applies for JAL NRT-JFK-GRU and even more for KE ICN-LAX-GRU, both of which would not be sustainable without the intermediary stop.

Air China was unlucky to get the wrong intermediary stop, for a number of reasons named above.

Rgs,


25 Hardiwv : Thanks. Rgs,
26 Acelanzarote : I am not going to comment on Aeroflot even though I have flown them four times, but I have flown China Airlines and Air China a lot in the past and b
27 Hardiwv : Perhaps your comparision basis is Iberia? No offence here... Rgs,
28 Post contains links LipeGIG : To see how competitive is the market on GRU/GIG-MAD, IB just announced one special fare and an increase on commission payable to travel agents: Busine
29 AA767400 : Barajas passport control is staffed with rude, arrogant employees who take out their issues on many foreign passengers. I thought the U.S. has the wo
30 GatoVolador : I sincerely don't think that Spain is a country with very severe controls. As you all know, the criteria for immigration are set by Europe (as Spain i
31 Abrelosojos : = I am not surprised as the loads in J on a flight in June was dismal. = Actually, I think KE will benefit more than AM. While you do have to obtain
32 Lambert747 : If the comparison was to Tower Air or Iran Air, we would all be impressed.. I have flown CI SFO-TPE-BKK, LAX-TPE-SGN, and FCO-BKK, there was nothing
33 Abrelosojos : = Treating people with respect and not as a criminal is the least one can do under ANY circumstance. In my book, there is NEVER any excuse for treati
34 HALFA : Based on my personal experience at Barajas, I would have to agree. I have travelled all over the world and have worked as a flight attendant for 23 y
35 Lambert747 : From personal experience, I can as I have mentioned earlier in this topic Air China is one of the worst airlines I have ever flown on. Air China trie
36 Airbazar : Yes, but that's just a technicality. CA's flight is still a one-stop flight, and there's no shortage of one-stop flights between many Latin American
37 Kelual : I'm amaze that people from the US are actually complaining about customs in MAD... after all the atrocities that we Spaniards have to go through in NY
38 Incitatus : Not only that, the flight already makes a stop before leaving Latin America. And the connections from bigger markets like SCL/EZE/GRU are not good. O
39 Tacoronte : Actually I've only had one rude custum at MIA, the custums I've always dealt are very friendly; some even ask how were my vacations and just make con
40 HALFA : What atrocities have Spaniards suffered at US airports? Stories of long waits, unfriendly immigration/customs officers, and lengthy questions are wel
41 Latinplane : Don't take my post out of context. I never said that now the best option to China from Brazil is on AeroMexico's twice weekly Shanghai flight. Let me
42 Abrelosojos : = Read the entire posts ... not only Americans are complaining ... -A.
43 Luisde8cd : I hate to ruin the MAD-immigration bashing party, but my two inmigration experiences in MAD ,which has always been my Schengen point of entry, have b
44 Aviateur : I didn't know Air China flew Madrid-Sao Paulo, but that explains why I often hear them on the radio, west of Africa, over the Atlantic in the middle o
45 Avianca : have heard they are trained by Iberia
46 C010T3 : That's hilarious.
47 GatoVolador : I fully agree. ... as you said before, being treated with respect is something that you have to expect under any circumstance. Probably. Sorry, I hop
48 UPPERDECKFAN : I don't hold a US or Spanish passport, not a VWP however I've never had any problem either at MAD or at any US point of entry (LAX, JFK, MIA, ORD, DF
49 Kelual : Most of us Spaniards share names and surenames with the Spanish speaking countries in America, so if you happen to have a common name and a common sur
50 AA767400 : I do. Happened to me in YYZ. Could have fooled me. But the reality is that most of the rude lot are the ones in MIA. I guess the humidity gets them c
51 Airbazar : MIA is a disaster area in general but as far a rudeness goes I've had pretty bad experiences in both BOS and LAX.
52 Rafabozzolla : That's interesting, I have an Italian passport with a Portuguese name and surname on it, and I never had a problem going through immigration in the U
53 PPVRA : Indeed. They might be able to do better if they offer at least 4 weekly services though. The attractiveness of a one hop/direct flight to Asia is qui
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