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This Doesn't Look Like EWR To Me  
User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6252 times:

I'm a HUGE fan of National Airlines (the original one). I also grew up in Northern New Jersey and used EWR as my home airport for the first 38 years of my life.

This pic:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Natio...onnell-Douglas-DC-10-30/1372684/L/

lists EWR as the airport where the photo was taken, but I don't think that's the case.

First, there are way too many trees in the background.... Usually, the background is of the NJ Turnpike.

Second, the way the shot is composed, I would expect a DL plane to be where the EA plane is, as National and Delta were located in Terminal B-3. Eastern was in B-2, so I just can't see how this can be EWR.

Anyone have any other thoughts?

45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

I was thinking it looked like MIA.

But who knows.


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6223 times:



Quoting N62NA (Thread starter):
Terminal B-3. Eastern was in B-2

Did those terminals even exist in 9/73?


User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

I would say this photo was taken at the North Terminal as A ,and B opened in 1973 the year this photo was taken , so the new terminals might not have been operational yet.


AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6051 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 2):
id those terminals even exist in 9/73?

Yes Terminal A and B existed in 1973

Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 3):
I would say this photo was taken at the North Terminal as A ,and B opened in 1973 the year this photo was taken , so the new terminals might not have been operational yet.

This is obviously not Newark Airport, there are two dead giveaways that I brought to the attention of screeners.

1.) If you look in the background the airfield where the photo is taken is surrounded by a wooded area, there are no wooded areas anywhere near Newark airport as it's in a highly industrialized area surrounded by the third busiest port in the US, the Turnpike/ I-95 etc.

2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.

The photo in question, note the concrete runways/taxiways/ tarmac.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dave Mills



Here are some photos of Newark airport, JFK, LGA showing asphalt (black) not concrete (white).

LGA, asphalt


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Photo © Matthew I. Smith
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew I. Smith



EWR, asphalt


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Photo © Robert M. Campbell
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Photo © Robert M. Campbell



JFK, Asphalt


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos Borda
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos Borda



Here's some Florida airports for comparison, note the use of concrete (white) vs Asphalt.

Tampa, concrete


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © William Jenkins
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ralph Peters



Orlando, concrete


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Idle Photography
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Brad Harris



Miami, concrete


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen B. Aranha
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ben Wang




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1352 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6037 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.

Yeah.... like I said, I think it's MIA. There's a Certain Something that always comes through in photos shot at MIA, and this pic has it.

But, this is a restored image, so the lighting and whatnot might not be true to the original photo.


Patrick Smith



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5985 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
1.) If you look in the background the airfield where the photo is taken is surrounded by a wooded area, there are no wooded areas anywhere near Newark airport as it's in a highly industrialized area surrounded by the third busiest port in the US, the Turnpike/ I-95 etc.

Well, even without the industry there would not be forest type trees in the photo. It would be northern swampland, also known as "wetlands" or in Jersey speak, "Meadowlands." That's the natural state of that area. Long grasses and occasional trees on any small islands that form. You can see it around the rivers in that area. You need to go a few miles west to find the forests of trees. But Jersey likes to hide those trees from NYC visitors to keep them out of the garden state...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1006 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5939 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.

Why is this? At first I thought maybe it is the weather but several colder airports also have concrete runways and taxiways:

DTW

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Photo © Denny Jorgensen
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Photo © Bruce Leibowitz



YUL

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Photo © William Vogt
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Photo © Youri Thonon - Contrails Aviation Photography




A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5880 times:

Here are two other photos I noticed a couple years back that are also not Newark Airport. I brought it to the screeners attention back then.

These two are not Newark airport:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Oates
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Oates




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21507 posts, RR: 60
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5809 times:



Quoting N867DA (Reply 7):
Why is this? At first I thought maybe it is the weather but several colder airports also have concrete runways and taxiways:

Regional differences in construction practices. Traditionally, it comes from using local materials for substrates and binding agents to cut down on costs. The northeast region is full of red clay and granite, but not a lot of limestone, so you see a lot of red brick and stone buildings because it was cheaper. Limestone was used for facades of fancy buildings in northeastern cities because it was costly.

But there so much granite in New Jersey, New York and New England, they use it for street curbs instead of concrete in most suburbs. Not kitchen counter grade stuff, just square blocks laid in rows, the cast off pieces from the quarries that also provide the larger blocks and slabs. And the even smaller chunks, the granite gravel, is used for roads. The larger chunks are laid as gravel roads, the smaller chunks are mixed into concretes, and also sold as is for laying as mulches and footpaths. As any kid from the northeast can attest, falling down on old asphalt concrete where the top surface has worn off is like taking small pointy rocks and injecting them into your knees. I still have scars on my knees!

"Asphalt", or asphalt concrete which is what we are really talking about when we talk about roads and runways, consists of small gravels bound together by asphalt/bitumen (a gooey liquid that acts as a binding agent that comes from petroleum), or in the past "tar" which is where the term "tarmac" comes from (and why calling the area around the runway the "tarmac" is just as improper has calling it the runway, because tarmac is a substance, not a place). Tar comes from the refining of coal, and is a wasteproduct. And because the region was big on coal, well, we had a lot of tar. But cement had to be imported from far off places (well, if you consider the midwest far off). As coal use diminished and oil and gas use increased, a similar substitue binding agent was used, bitumen(asphalt), which is a similar cast off from the refining of those newer fuels.

"Cement concrete" roads and runways require a lot of sand and cement, and asphalt concrete or tarmac require neither (though sand can be used, and is in some parts of the country). Since sandy soil is not as common in New Jersey, you don't see a lot of cement concrete roads, parking lots, etc., and as stated above, cement needs to be imported. The cost is prohibitive for large areas, at least when compared to the cost of asphalt. And asphalt is highly recyclable. When you rip up a road, you use all of that again as the base layer (after being rechopped up) for a new road, and then lay the thin hot new layer on top and press it in with rollers to create a sealed surface.

So...

The reason the northeast has so much asphalt concrete (and formerly tarmac) is that we have ready access to the components that make it, and not to the components for cement concrete.

Now, go south to Florida, and they have all the sand and coral you could ask for to make concrete, but not the right ingredients for asphalt. In the midwest, it depends on where you are, but you'll see various forms of concrete or asphalt in roads, using all kinds of substrates and binding agents. My guess is that because DTW is in a lake region, the components available are more suitable for cement concrete than asphalt concrete. In Kansas, the roads are laid as black asphalt, but as the top layer of bitumen wears off, the red substrate is exposed and the roads are red with time.

One MAJOR benefit of asphalt concrete for roads and runways as opposed to cement concrete is curing time. You can drive on asphalt roads within hours, use asphalt runways within days. Cement concrete takes much longer to gain full strength. But cement concrete lasts longer (the surface), especially in regions that don't freeze. If it didn't, asphalt runways would be universal.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9623 posts, RR: 68
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5779 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
that I brought to the attention of screeners.

This photo was accepted yesterday, yet the screening team has not received any email from you, or any other user, about a location change.

Who exactly did you email?

I will ask the editing team to have a look at this thread, they are tasked with maintaining our data and its accuracy.

Thanks


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5768 times:



Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10):
This photo was accepted yesterday, yet the screening team has not received any email from you, or any other user, about a location change.

I submitted the correction form with email yesterday, I clicked on the button with the photo for corrections.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5690 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 4):
Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.

The photo in question, note the concrete runways/taxiways/ tarmac.

Well I see what you are saying in relation to this pic, but I'm not sold. And the concrete in the south and asphalt in the north theory just is not 100% true,

examples;

Here we see concrete all over EWR''s ramp and other areas,

Big version: Width: 1188 Height: 806 File size: 195kb


same at JFK,

Big version: Width: 1188 Height: 806 File size: 209kb


while here at Ft Lauderdale we see mostly concrete but the entire GA ramp and RWY 9R are asphalt.

Just a thought.

Big version: Width: 1188 Height: 806 File size: 210kb



AIRLINERS.NET MODERATORS SUCK MOOSE DICK!!!!
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5671 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR



Quoting STT757 (Reply 11):
I submitted the correction form with email yesterday, I clicked on the button with the photo for corrections.

Hello STT757,

We have indeed received your correction request. Please allow some time for us to thoroughly research it.

While some corrections simply involve the addition of a serial number or a quick modification to a comment, changes to the aircraft type or location based upon vague clues that may or may not be readily apparent require a more lengthy investment in time and effort on our part.

In short, we want to be sure before making a major change.  Smile

Although we've reduced the corrections queue from around 7,000 several months ago to about 500 presently, we still prefer to work carefully and deliberately to avoid any errors.

Thanks very much for your patience, and have a great day.

2H4


P.S. - Please keep this thread/investigation going...the evidence you're all finding will surely be of value to us!



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineAirlineBrat From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5659 times:

If you look at the horizon line on the right side, it looks like a very small ridge line that extends from the center of the photo towards the right edge. My guess is that the ridge rises no more than 100 feet above the valley. I could be wrong and it is a dense forest compared to the horizon towards the left. Analyzing the solar angle, the photo looks like it was taken somewhere between 11am and 2pm. How about MSY? Looking at Departed Flights (1974), my guess is National flight 27 (DC-10) that left MSY at 1:40pm and arrived at Houston at 2:37pm. It continued on to LAS (3:53pm) and SFO (5:33pm).


I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7140 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5635 times:



Quoting Aviateur (Reply 5):
Yeah.... like I said, I think it's MIA. There's a Certain Something that always comes through in photos shot at MIA, and this pic has it.

This is very true. I can even tell if pictures are from MIA or not by just looking at the sky. Pictures from MIA just have something to them. This picture does look like its from MIA. But really I have no idea.



"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineRamprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1530 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5616 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):

Those two pics was taken at JFK, United's Terminal 9.


User currently offlineVctony From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5556 times:

For some strange reason I think that the photo linked at the top of the page was taken at ATL.

User currently offlinePhatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1353 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5431 times:

I don't think this is EWR, MIA, or ATL. EWR is obvious with the trees in the background. At MIA (EA Terminal B/C, NA Terminal F) or ATL, neither carrier parked next to each other. Now I think it could be MCO. Looking at a 1975 OAG map of MCO's old terminal that was adjacent to the Beeline Expreesway, the EA DC-9 could have been parked at gate 14, while the NA DC-10 was parked at gate 15.

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6816 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 18 hours ago) and read 5092 times:

The 8/73 OAG shows one NA DC-10 into EWR, arriving at 2005 and leaving 2100-- too late.

User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 4985 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):

And yet, just because you see asphalt on top of the runway doesn't mean there's no concrete underneath.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 4651 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 19):
The 8/73 OAG shows one NA DC-10 into EWR, arriving at 2005 and leaving 2100-- too late.

Well, that's if the date is right!  Silly



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 4591 times:

the 2 in here never got fixed. i believe i sent them an e-mail 3 years back.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...l_aviation/read.main/1553257/1/#29



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineTUSAA From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

Could that photo have been taken at PBI? I do remember NA flying DC-10's into PBI.

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 15 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Wow, I'm amazed at the attention my post is getting, thanks all!

Just one more thing to consider here... the photo is of a DC10-30 series... NA had a lot of DC10-10s which were used for domestic runs... I'm not sure if the '30s ever saw domestic service or not, but if not, then this plane would have been photographed at one of NA's European gateway cities in the USA (of which I think there was only one, which was MIA).


25 AirlineBrat : Good point. I have been trying to pour over the photo for clues. Clues like the Eastern DC-9 parked at the adjacent gate. Guessing what time of day i
26 727LOVER : The pic in question has been changed to LGA !
27 7gm7 : pic is JFK pic is EWR
28 Caspian27 : In the United pictures, you can see a United hangar in the pic on the right. You can just make out the old style U N. I'm not familiar with the north
29 N62NA : Actually, UA did used to have a hanger at EWR. I think they even built a new one in the 1990s at some point, just prior to drawing down service in a
30 Stratosphere : If you look at the pic it says LGA not EWR as the location.
31 Timz : Hm-- still doesn't sound too likely, does it? We're supposed to be looking north from the LGA terminal? What buildings would those be in the backgrou
32 727LOVER : SEE REPLY 26! Hell, no way this is LGA. First, NA was on the concourse where UA was were'n they? Second, weren't jumbo jets parked on the outer areas
33 STT757 : UAL does have a maintenance hangar at EWR, it was active until 2002. They used to work mainly in 757s there, they also had a contract to work on HP 7
34 Post contains links Timz : Okay, so UA had a hanger at EWR-- but we're all agreed that the two UA pics http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...Donnell-Douglas-DC-8-61/1121954/L/
35 Post contains links Vctony : Those UA pics are at JFK. Look at the terminal in this photo (and the distinctive light poles). http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...26&prev_id=0627
36 Caljn : Well said mate! We also need to supply them fodder to support their superiority complex.
37 727LOVER : Any updates? Does anyone else think its LGA (changed from EWR)
38 Spacecadet : I would be a lot more likely to believe that's EWR than LGA. LGA has basically never had an unobstructed view of trees in the distance like that for a
39 Josh32121 : No one's addressed the airstairs issue. Would EWR, LGA, or MIA have boarded a DC-10 via airstairs in the 70's?
40 STT757 : No, EWR had jetways.
41 Post contains links and images Spacecadet : I actually think this could be JFK. If the photog is convinced this was at a NY area airport (as he seems to be, going from EWR to LGA), then it's alm
42 Readytotaxi : Hey, I got an idea, lets call in Mulder & Scully.
43 Post contains links HangarRat : Since the thread started, the location has been changed to LGA. In some parts of Northeast Pennsylvania, the roads have a really weird purple color. I
44 Josh32121 : Wouldn't National have been at Terminal 6 and Eastern at Terminal 1 at JFK? Those are at opposite ends of the terminal complex, so it doesn't seem pla
45 Post contains links and images DUALRATED : EWR had plenty of airstair action in the 70's. and 80's as can be seen below. View Large View MediumPhoto © Art Brett - Photovation Images View
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