N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3683 posts, RR: 4 Posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5427 times:
I'm a HUGE fan of National Airlines (the original one). I also grew up in Northern New Jersey and used EWR as my home airport for the first 38 years of my life.
lists EWR as the airport where the photo was taken, but I don't think that's the case.
First, there are way too many trees in the background.... Usually, the background is of the NJ Turnpike.
Second, the way the shot is composed, I would expect a DL plane to be where the EA plane is, as National and Delta were located in Terminal B-3. Eastern was in B-2, so I just can't see how this can be EWR.
Aviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1347 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5416 times:
I was thinking it looked like MIA.
But who knows.
PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
DUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5391 times:
I would say this photo was taken at the North Terminal as A ,and B opened in 1973 the year this photo was taken , so the new terminals might not have been operational yet.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16266 posts, RR: 52 Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5226 times:
Quoting Timz (Reply 2): id those terminals even exist in 9/73?
Yes Terminal A and B existed in 1973
Quoting DUALRATED (Reply 3): I would say this photo was taken at the North Terminal as A ,and B opened in 1973 the year this photo was taken , so the new terminals might not have been operational yet.
This is obviously not Newark Airport, there are two dead giveaways that I brought to the attention of screeners.
1.) If you look in the background the airfield where the photo is taken is surrounded by a wooded area, there are no wooded areas anywhere near Newark airport as it's in a highly industrialized area surrounded by the third busiest port in the US, the Turnpike/ I-95 etc.
2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.
The photo in question, note the concrete runways/taxiways/ tarmac.
Aviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1347 posts, RR: 12 Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5212 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): 2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.
Yeah.... like I said, I think it's MIA. There's a Certain Something that always comes through in photos shot at MIA, and this pic has it.
But, this is a restored image, so the lighting and whatnot might not be true to the original photo.
Patrick Smith
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5160 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): 1.) If you look in the background the airfield where the photo is taken is surrounded by a wooded area, there are no wooded areas anywhere near Newark airport as it's in a highly industrialized area surrounded by the third busiest port in the US, the Turnpike/ I-95 etc.
Well, even without the industry there would not be forest type trees in the photo. It would be northern swampland, also known as "wetlands" or in Jersey speak, "Meadowlands." That's the natural state of that area. Long grasses and occasional trees on any small islands that form. You can see it around the rivers in that area. You need to go a few miles west to find the forests of trees. But Jersey likes to hide those trees from NYC visitors to keep them out of the garden state...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
N867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 974 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5114 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): 2.) Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.
Why is this? At first I thought maybe it is the weather but several colder airports also have concrete runways and taxiways:
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16266 posts, RR: 52 Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5055 times:
Here are two other photos I noticed a couple years back that are also not Newark Airport. I brought it to the screeners attention back then.
Ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4984 times:
Quoting N867DA (Reply 7): Why is this? At first I thought maybe it is the weather but several colder airports also have concrete runways and taxiways:
Regional differences in construction practices. Traditionally, it comes from using local materials for substrates and binding agents to cut down on costs. The northeast region is full of red clay and granite, but not a lot of limestone, so you see a lot of red brick and stone buildings because it was cheaper. Limestone was used for facades of fancy buildings in northeastern cities because it was costly.
But there so much granite in New Jersey, New York and New England, they use it for street curbs instead of concrete in most suburbs. Not kitchen counter grade stuff, just square blocks laid in rows, the cast off pieces from the quarries that also provide the larger blocks and slabs. And the even smaller chunks, the granite gravel, is used for roads. The larger chunks are laid as gravel roads, the smaller chunks are mixed into concretes, and also sold as is for laying as mulches and footpaths. As any kid from the northeast can attest, falling down on old asphalt concrete where the top surface has worn off is like taking small pointy rocks and injecting them into your knees. I still have scars on my knees!
"Asphalt", or asphalt concrete which is what we are really talking about when we talk about roads and runways, consists of small gravels bound together by asphalt/bitumen (a gooey liquid that acts as a binding agent that comes from petroleum), or in the past "tar" which is where the term "tarmac" comes from (and why calling the area around the runway the "tarmac" is just as improper has calling it the runway, because tarmac is a substance, not a place). Tar comes from the refining of coal, and is a wasteproduct. And because the region was big on coal, well, we had a lot of tar. But cement had to be imported from far off places (well, if you consider the midwest far off). As coal use diminished and oil and gas use increased, a similar substitue binding agent was used, bitumen(asphalt), which is a similar cast off from the refining of those newer fuels.
"Cement concrete" roads and runways require a lot of sand and cement, and asphalt concrete or tarmac require neither (though sand can be used, and is in some parts of the country). Since sandy soil is not as common in New Jersey, you don't see a lot of cement concrete roads, parking lots, etc., and as stated above, cement needs to be imported. The cost is prohibitive for large areas, at least when compared to the cost of asphalt. And asphalt is highly recyclable. When you rip up a road, you use all of that again as the base layer (after being rechopped up) for a new road, and then lay the thin hot new layer on top and press it in with rollers to create a sealed surface.
So...
The reason the northeast has so much asphalt concrete (and formerly tarmac) is that we have ready access to the components that make it, and not to the components for cement concrete.
Now, go south to Florida, and they have all the sand and coral you could ask for to make concrete, but not the right ingredients for asphalt. In the midwest, it depends on where you are, but you'll see various forms of concrete or asphalt in roads, using all kinds of substrates and binding agents. My guess is that because DTW is in a lake region, the components available are more suitable for cement concrete than asphalt concrete. In Kansas, the roads are laid as black asphalt, but as the top layer of bitumen wears off, the red substrate is exposed and the roads are red with time.
One MAJOR benefit of asphalt concrete for roads and runways as opposed to cement concrete is curing time. You can drive on asphalt roads within hours, use asphalt runways within days. Cement concrete takes much longer to gain full strength. But cement concrete lasts longer (the surface), especially in regions that don't freeze. If it didn't, asphalt runways would be universal.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
Clickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9444 posts, RR: 72 Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4954 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW PHOTO SCREENER
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): that I brought to the attention of screeners.
This photo was accepted yesterday, yet the screening team has not received any email from you, or any other user, about a location change.
Who exactly did you email?
I will ask the editing team to have a look at this thread, they are tasked with maintaining our data and its accuracy.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16266 posts, RR: 52 Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4943 times:
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 10): This photo was accepted yesterday, yet the screening team has not received any email from you, or any other user, about a location change.
I submitted the correction form with email yesterday, I clicked on the button with the photo for corrections.
DUALRATED From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1001 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4865 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 4): Second, look at the tarmac and runways in the background. They are concrete (white), concrete is not used in the Northeast for runways/taxiways. Airports in the Northeast like EWR, JFK and LGA use asphalt (black), concrete is used in Southern airports like Florida where this photo is most likely taken.
The photo in question, note the concrete runways/taxiways/ tarmac.
Well I see what you are saying in relation to this pic, but I'm not sold. And the concrete in the south and asphalt in the north theory just is not 100% true,
examples;
Here we see concrete all over EWR''s ramp and other areas,
same at JFK,
while here at Ft Lauderdale we see mostly concrete but the entire GA ramp and RWY 9R are asphalt.
2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8950 posts, RR: 62 Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4846 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW HEAD DATABASE EDITOR
Quoting STT757 (Reply 11): I submitted the correction form with email yesterday, I clicked on the button with the photo for corrections.
Hello STT757,
We have indeed received your correction request. Please allow some time for us to thoroughly research it.
While some corrections simply involve the addition of a serial number or a quick modification to a comment, changes to the aircraft type or location based upon vague clues that may or may not be readily apparent require a more lengthy investment in time and effort on our part.
In short, we want to be sure before making a major change.
Although we've reduced the corrections queue from around 7,000 several months ago to about 500 presently, we still prefer to work carefully and deliberately to avoid any errors.
Thanks very much for your patience, and have a great day.
2H4
P.S. - Please keep this thread/investigation going...the evidence you're all finding will surely be of value to us!
AirlineBrat From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 634 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4834 times:
If you look at the horizon line on the right side, it looks like a very small ridge line that extends from the center of the photo towards the right edge. My guess is that the ridge rises no more than 100 feet above the valley. I could be wrong and it is a dense forest compared to the horizon towards the left. Analyzing the solar angle, the photo looks like it was taken somewhere between 11am and 2pm. How about MSY? Looking at Departed Flights (1974), my guess is National flight 27 (DC-10) that left MSY at 1:40pm and arrived at Houston at 2:37pm. It continued on to LAS (3:53pm) and SFO (5:33pm).
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
FlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 6298 posts, RR: 6 Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4810 times:
Quoting Aviateur (Reply 5): Yeah.... like I said, I think it's MIA. There's a Certain Something that always comes through in photos shot at MIA, and this pic has it.
This is very true. I can even tell if pictures are from MIA or not by just looking at the sky. Pictures from MIA just have something to them. This picture does look like its from MIA. But really I have no idea.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
Ramprat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1457 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4791 times:
Phatfarmlines From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1322 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4606 times:
I don't think this is EWR, MIA, or ATL. EWR is obvious with the trees in the background. At MIA (EA Terminal B/C, NA Terminal F) or ATL, neither carrier parked next to each other. Now I think it could be MCO. Looking at a 1975 OAG map of MCO's old terminal that was adjacent to the Beeline Expreesway, the EA DC-9 could have been parked at gate 14, while the NA DC-10 was parked at gate 15.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5723 posts, RR: 20 Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3826 times:
Quoting Timz (Reply 19): The 8/73 OAG shows one NA DC-10 into EWR, arriving at 2005 and leaving 2100-- too late.
727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5723 posts, RR: 20 Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3766 times:
the 2 in here never got fixed. i believe i sent them an e-mail 3 years back.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3683 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3358 times:
Wow, I'm amazed at the attention my post is getting, thanks all!
Just one more thing to consider here... the photo is of a DC10-30 series... NA had a lot of DC10-10s which were used for domestic runs... I'm not sure if the '30s ever saw domestic service or not, but if not, then this plane would have been photographed at one of NA's European gateway cities in the USA (of which I think there was only one, which was MIA).
25 AirlineBrat: Good point. I have been trying to pour over the photo for clues. Clues like the Eastern DC-9 parked at the adjacent gate. Guessing what time of day i
26 727LOVER: The pic in question has been changed to LGA !
28 Caspian27: In the United pictures, you can see a United hangar in the pic on the right. You can just make out the old style U N. I'm not familiar with the north
29 N62NA: Actually, UA did used to have a hanger at EWR. I think they even built a new one in the 1990s at some point, just prior to drawing down service in a
30 Stratosphere: If you look at the pic it says LGA not EWR as the location.
31 Timz: Hm-- still doesn't sound too likely, does it? We're supposed to be looking north from the LGA terminal? What buildings would those be in the backgrou
32 727LOVER: SEE REPLY 26! Hell, no way this is LGA. First, NA was on the concourse where UA was were'n they? Second, weren't jumbo jets parked on the outer areas
33 STT757: UAL does have a maintenance hangar at EWR, it was active until 2002. They used to work mainly in 757s there, they also had a contract to work on HP 7
34 Timz: Okay, so UA had a hanger at EWR-- but we're all agreed that the two UA pics http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...Donnell-Douglas-DC-8-61/1121954/L/
35 Vctony: Those UA pics are at JFK. Look at the terminal in this photo (and the distinctive light poles). http://www.airliners.net/photo/Unite...26&prev_id=0627
36 Caljn: Well said mate! We also need to supply them fodder to support their superiority complex.
37 727LOVER: Any updates? Does anyone else think its LGA (changed from EWR)
38 Spacecadet: I would be a lot more likely to believe that's EWR than LGA. LGA has basically never had an unobstructed view of trees in the distance like that for a
39 Josh32121: No one's addressed the airstairs issue. Would EWR, LGA, or MIA have boarded a DC-10 via airstairs in the 70's?
41 Spacecadet: I actually think this could be JFK. If the photog is convinced this was at a NY area airport (as he seems to be, going from EWR to LGA), then it's alm
42 Readytotaxi: Hey, I got an idea, lets call in Mulder & Scully.
43 HangarRat: Since the thread started, the location has been changed to LGA. In some parts of Northeast Pennsylvania, the roads have a really weird purple color. I
44 Josh32121: Wouldn't National have been at Terminal 6 and Eastern at Terminal 1 at JFK? Those are at opposite ends of the terminal complex, so it doesn't seem pla
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