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Pan Am 001 Routing?  
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11754 times:

So here's an interesting question:

What was the routing of Pan Am 001 back in the 1970's, after the introduction of the 747-100?

A fellow American, much older than myself that I bumped into at the Starbucks in HKG, told me that Pan Am 001 had the same routing as SQ001, which was the flight that I was on when I bumped into this gentleman.

On a related side note, I sure am glad that SQ allows through passengers off the plane in HKG  cool  , where on a USA domestic flight, unless the continuation had to switch aircraft, you're usually held hostage on board the aircraft.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11713 times:

http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html


Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11696 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 1):
http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html

Wow, that sure was a ton of stops  eyepopping  Was this flight flown on the 747?

About the only similarities in the routing I could find was that the flight stopped at some point in HKG. Heck, SQ1 originates in SFO, and apparently, Pan Am 1 originated in LAX.



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11662 times:

I think it was a B747.

I was reading somewhere a while back something from an old PAA Flight attendant; PAA1 and PAA2 were timed that, if everything worked just right, the aircraft on PAA1 and PAA2 were supposed to meet up somewhere on the other side of the world, I think DEL.

When UA did their RTW UAL1 and UAL2, they did that too. However, it wasnt the same aircraft. UAL1 would leave LAX-HKG on a B744, then swap to a B767-3 for the HKGDEL leg; only the flight number went RTW...



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineTonyban From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11527 times:

Hey...I remember flying on 001 from LHR to DEL when I was 11 years old in 1973. It had stops in Frankfurt, Rome, Beriut and Istanbul. I might be wrong with one of the stops. It took forever to get to Delhi and I remember seeing 002 at Delhi going the other way !! Wow, thanks for the memories..... Sad

User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 922 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11431 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
About the only similarities in the routing I could find was that the flight stopped at some point in HKG. Heck, SQ1 originates in SFO, and apparently, Pan Am 1 originated in LAX.

Prior to 1970 or so, PA1/2 used SFO as its terminus rather than LAX. If you consider the years that the flight operated, SFO was the terminus for longer than LAX was.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11369 times:



Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 5):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
About the only similarities in the routing I could find was that the flight stopped at some point in HKG. Heck, SQ1 originates in SFO, and apparently, Pan Am 1 originated in LAX.


Prior to 1970 or so, PA1/2 used SFO as its terminus rather than LAX. If you consider the years that the flight operated, SFO was the terminus for longer than LAX was.

And in those days it wasn't quite around-the-world since PA couldn't carry U.S. domestic traffic then (except to Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico) so there was a gap between SFO and JFK. Westbound flight 1 originated at SFO and terminated at JFK, and vice versa for eastbound flight 2.

In 1963 when it was still all 707 and DC-8 equipment, the intermediate stops between FRA and HKG varied slightly every day. Eastbound flight 2 routings then were as follows:

Sun: JFK-LHR-FRA-VIE-IST-BEY-KHI-CCU-RGN-BKK-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO
Mon: JFK-LHR-FRA-BEG-IST-BEY-THR-DEL-BKK-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO
Tue: JFK-LHR-FRA-VIE-IST-BEY-KHI-CCU-BKK-SGN-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO
Wed: JFK-LHR-FRA-MUC-IST-BEY-THR-DEL-BKK-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO
Thu: JFK-LHR-FRA-BEG-IST-BEY-KHI-CCU-RGN-BKK-HND-HNL-SFO
Fri: JFK-LHR-FRA-VIE-IST-BEY-THR-DEL-BKK-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO
Sat: JFK-LHR-FRA-MUC-IST-BEY-KHI-DEL-BKK-HKG-HND-HNL-SFO

Elapsed time JFK to SFO was 52 hr 15 min. Flight 1 westbound was 55 hr 35 min SFO to JFK.. Those times were the same every day. The stop at HKG varied from 45 min to 2 hr 15 min depending on the day of the week to adjust for the one extra stop on certain days. The entire routing then had either 11 or 12 intermediate stops.


User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4970 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11256 times:
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A sample from June 1974:

PA001:

LAX-SFO-HND-HKG-BKK-DEL-KHI-(BEY or THR)-IST-FRA-LHR-JFK-PHL

All 747s except JFK-PHL was a 707 (with no local traffic rights)
The BEY or THR was depending on day of week.

From April 1976:

PA001:

JFK-SFO-HND-HKG-BKK-(DEL and/or KHI)-THR-(IST)-FRA-LHR-JFK

All 747s; no local traffic rights between JFK and SFO.


User currently offlinePoint8six From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 11229 times:

I flew PA 2 from LHR to DEL and then PA 1 DEL-LHR in October 1972. It was a B747-100 and the routeing, as far as I can remember, was LHR-FRA-IST-KHI-DEL and the opposite routeing back to LHR. At the time I was a very junior F/O with BA(BEA) and I managed to ride the cockpit jumpseat from KHI to DEL. The Capt was No 1 on the Captain's seniority list, the co-pilot was No 2 on the co-pilot's list and the F/E was No 1 on the F/E's list. They did this trip once a month and almost always flew together. It kindled my interest in the 747 and I have been 747 rated for the past 21 years now. Thanks guys!

User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11018 times:



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 1):
http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973p47.html

The routing changed over the years. I remember flying it from BOM to FRA - non-stop.



I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10787 times:

I flew PA002 from JFK to LHR in April 1970. Judging from the passengers reactions when they boarded it was nearly everyone's first flight in a 747. I returned on 001 in May. Although living in Toronto I had chosen to go via NY, just to get to fly in a 747.

BTW PA002 was N736PA 'Clipper Victor' - destroyed 7 years later in the terrible Tenerife PanAm/KLM accident.


User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 922 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 10719 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
And in those days it wasn't quite around-the-world since PA couldn't carry U.S. domestic traffic then (except to Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico) so there was a gap between SFO and JFK. Westbound flight 1 originated at SFO and terminated at JFK, and vice versa for eastbound flight 2.

Just to add, one could fly Pan Am around the world on PA1/2, one would just have to take a different PA flight between SFO/LAX and JFK. An SFO-JFK flight would continue on to Europe, and a JFK-LAX flight would continue on to HNL and Australia.


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6902 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10609 times:



Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 11):
An SFO-JFK flight would continue on to Europe, and a JFK-LAX flight would continue on to HNL and Australia.

After 1967-68, that is. No PA transcon before that.


User currently offlineDispatchguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10584 times:



Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
All 747s; no local traffic rights between JFK and SFO.

I didnt know that...



Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2263 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 10575 times:



Quoting Timz (Reply 12):
Quoting Simairlinenet (Reply 11):
An SFO-JFK flight would continue on to Europe, and a JFK-LAX flight would continue on to HNL and Australia.

After 1967-68, that is. No PA transcon before that.

When AA flew their first 707 nonstop LAX-IDL in Jan 1959, Pan Am took out a full page ad in the New York Times to congratulate AA. The ad also made passengers bound for Hawaii or the South Pacific aware that it was easier to get there, now that they could take an AA jet to LAX and Pan Am the rest of the way. Pan Am was totally dependent on AA and UA for feed from California to Europe, and from New York to Asia, Hawaii, and the South Pacific, until they were able to fly their own aircraft across the USA in the late 1960s.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10397 times:

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 13):
Quoting Panamair (Reply 7):
All 747s; no local traffic rights between JFK and SFO.

I didnt know that...

Oh yes...Pan Am had no domestic traffic rights before Deregulation (excluding Alaska/Hawaii).

Looking at Pan Am's April 29, 1973 route map
( http://www.departedflights.com/PA042973.html ) you will see several domestic routes shown, but looking at the timetable itself, it reveals:

No schedules listed between the VERY few domestic routes shown because Pan Am could not offer local service on them:

Baltimore-Philadelphia
Los Angeles-San Francisco (schedules listed but "No local traffic" remark included)
Miami-New York (scedules listed but "No local traffic" remark included)
New York-Miami (schedules listed but "No local traffic" remark included)
New York-Philadelphia
Philadelphia-Baltimore
Philadelphia-New York
Portland-Seattle
San Francisco-Los Angeles (schedules listed but "No local traffic" remark included)
San Francisco-Seattle
Seattle-Portland
Seattle-San Francisco

The remainder of the domestic routes shown (including Minneapolis, Detroit, New Orleans, Orlando and Washington DC) were operated by Northwest or Delta.

To quote the book, "Pan Am: An Airline and Its Aircraft:"

A LONGSTANDING AMBITION

Ever since the 1930s, Juan Trippe had coveted domestic routes. He was irritated to have to carry passengers and mail across the world's oceans, only to have to hand them over to domestic carriers enroute to inland cities. The thought that perhaps the domestic airlines might feel the same way about his defacto monopoly of international U.S. air traffic either did not occur to him; or, more likely, he preferred to ignore it because it did not suit his purpose. Juan Trippe wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

AMBITION FULFILLED

At long last, Trippe lived to see the day when Pan Am was able to operate domestic routes. Two months before the passing of the Airline Deregulation Act, it applied to merge with National Airlines. Then followed a battle for control with Eastern Air Lines and Texas International, and the value of National stock went up in a seller's market. After 16 months of litigation, the Civil Aeronautics Board finally approved the merger, and Pan Am took over on 7 January 1980, paying a high price for the doubtful privilege.

[Edited 2008-07-24 14:33:17]

User currently offlinePcbm From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10285 times:

Is it just me, or do the flight- times on the PA schedule seem sygnificantly shorter than for the same sector today...


JFK- Dakar is 7hrs 30 minuts

Today its 8hrs 20 mins...


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10180 times:



Quoting Pcbm (Reply 16):
Is it just me, or do the flight- times on the PA schedule seem sygnificantly shorter than for the same sector today...


JFK- Dakar is 7hrs 30 minuts

Today its 8hrs 20 mins...

Until the 1973 oil crisis, US airlines considered that the best utilization of the flight crew (until that time, the most expensive part of the operations equation) was obtained by operating at or close to Mmo, the maximum possible cruising speed. In 1973, the cost of oil suddenly became a factor and put an end to that...  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineNegekono From Mali, joined Dec 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10010 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
Until the 1973 oil crisis, US airlines considered that the best utilization of the flight crew (until that time, the most expensive part of the operations equation) was obtained by operating at or close to Mmo, the maximum possible cruising speed. In 1973, the cost of oil suddenly became a factor and put an end to that...

Also because one of the late tricks by airlines to achieve good timeliness rates is to publish inflated flight times. So I think!


User currently offlineDiscoverCSG From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 833 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9239 times:



Quoting Pcbm (Reply 16):
JFK- Dakar is 7hrs 30 minuts

Today its 8hrs 20 mins...



Quoting Negekono (Reply 18):
Also because one of the late tricks by airlines to achieve good timeliness rates is to publish inflated flight times. So I think!

Right. That difference in timing is entirely attributable to the slower cruise of the 767, and to the marked increase in JFK ground congestion.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8982 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 14):
Pan Am was totally dependent on AA and UA for feed from California to Europe,

Not totally as Pan Am of course also operated direct services between LAX/SFO/SEA and LHR. So even during the years when PA had no U.S. transcon service you could still fly around the world on PA provided you used their West Coast-LHR nonstops.


User currently offlineAviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1360 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 8935 times:



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 19):
Right. That difference in timing is entirely attributable to the slower cruise of the 767, and to the marked increase in JFK ground congestion.

Actual flight time JFK-DKR rarely exceeds 7.5 hours. It's schedule padding, mostly.

PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2263 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 8518 times:



Quoting N702ML (Reply 15):
Oh yes...Pan Am had no domestic traffic rights before Deregulation (excluding Alaska/Hawaii).

You're almost correct, but not quite.

In 1976, Pan Am was awarded rights to carry local passengers between DTW and BOS, on DTW-BOS-Europe flights. DTW-BOS had previously been an AA monopoly (North Central was awarded DTW-BOS in the same case as PA), and it was no coincidence that PA's first "mainland 48" route involved the home town of a certain senator that was the author of the Deregulation bill.

A few months before deregulation, Pan Am was awarded additional US Domestic route authority. When I get home, I'll check my copy of PA's 1978 annual report, to verify the specific routes.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineKellmark From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 693 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8281 times:

This brings back some memories.

I flew PA2 all the way around in 1973.

I stopped in LHR, FRA, IST, BEY, KHI. DEL, BKK, HKG, TYO, HNL and ended in LAX. It was a great trip. I spent some time in the UK, Germany, Pakistan, Thailand, Hong Kong, Japan and Hawaii.

It was all 747.

I different time in many ways.


User currently offlineN702ML From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 8057 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
You're almost correct, but not quite.

In 1976, Pan Am was awarded rights to carry local passengers between DTW and BOS, on DTW-BOS-Europe flights. DTW-BOS had previously been an AA monopoly (North Central was awarded DTW-BOS in the same case as PA), and it was no coincidence that PA's first "mainland 48" route involved the home town of a certain senator that was the author of the Deregulation bill.

A few months before deregulation, Pan Am was awarded additional US Domestic route authority. When I get home, I'll check my copy of PA's 1978 annual report, to verify the specific routes.

Wow, WA707atMSP...i did not know that! Thanks for that info!


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2263 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (6 years 4 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7724 times:



Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 22):
A few months before deregulation, Pan Am was awarded additional US Domestic route authority. When I get home, I'll check my copy of PA's 1978 annual report, to verify the specific routes.

OK, I finally dug out my PA 1978 annual report. Here's what it said"

"Houston became an important new Pan Am gateway with the inauguration on July 1 (1978) of daily Pan Am service between that city and Europe, the Middle East, the Orient, and the Pacific. Pan Am now offers the only 747 flights from Houston to London, via New York; and the only single plane service to Frankfurt, Delhi, and other points on Flight 2's round-the-world itinerary. Easy connections in Pan Am's Worldport terminal in New York make it possible for Houstonians to fly Pan Am to Rome, Istanbul, Dharan, Bombay, and other overseas destinations. In addition, Pan Am has authority to carry domestic passengers between Houston and New York on its international flights."

So, Pan Am had local traffic rights on IAH-JFK prior to deregulation. However, Pan Am lost their BOS-DTW local traffic rights in 1978 when PA was forced to suspend BOS-LHR. After the US-UK Bermuda II treaty was signed, Pan Am could fly either LAX-LHR or BOS-LHR, but not both. Pan Am chose LAX-LHR. DTW-LHR was rerouted via IAD. Pan Am was not given DTW-IAD local traffic rights, but was subsequently given temporary local traffic rights between the two cities during a four month Northwest Airlines pilots' strike in 1978.

The annual report goes on to say:

"Houston's domestic service will be expanded with the inauguration on April 29 (1979) of Houston-Miami and Houston-San Francisco flights, also as fill up on international flights."



Seaholm Maples are #1!
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