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Why Doesn't AA Fly To Hong Kong?  
User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 304 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12845 times:

i remember some one on here saying that it was because Cathy had such a big hub there and that got me thinking.. well AA flies to LHR where BA has a huge hub and they also fly to NRT where JL has a huge hub so why not Hong Kong?



-max


Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11116 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12820 times:



Quoting AA388 (Thread starter):
i remember some one on here saying that it was because Cathy had such a big hub there and that got me thinking.. well AA flies to LHR where BA has a huge hub and they also fly to NRT where JL has a huge hub so why not Hong Kong?

Many people have been asking the same question for years.

With 777s more than capable of doing it in both directions year-round without restrictions, they have absolutely no reason not to, especially considering that it would link two of the largest hubs in the oneworld network for the first time. I would dare say that ORD-HKG is one of the biggest gaping interhub holes in the entire global oneworld network, right up there with DFW-MAD.

Ostensibly, the reasons to date have largely been around aircraft availability no doubt, since AA is always chronically short of 777 capacity because of their scheduling of the planes, etc. For better or worse, AA has always chosen to stick with "safer" markets where it has a more dominant position, like Heathrow and South America.

That being said, of course, I completely agree: I think ORD-HKG would definitely fall into the "safe" category and feel confident that if AA started it, it would rapidly become profitable, even with fuel prices these days hurting longhaul flying.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12819 times:

For the longest time they had no plane to... transpolar routes with the 777 weren't being done for the first many years the plane was in service.

Then, really competing with UA on ORD-HKG would be a stretch for them...

But now, really I think its kerosene prices that will keep them out of it.

NS


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11116 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12800 times:



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
For the longest time they had no plane to... transpolar routes with the 777 weren't being done for the first many years the plane was in service.

AA's IGW 777s have always been easily capable of flying transpolar routes, and indeed AA flew a test flight with a 777 ORD-HKG almost 10 years ago, soon after they got the planes.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
Then, really competing with UA on ORD-HKG would be a stretch for them...

Hardly.

AA has a strong brand in Chicago - not as strong as United, but strong nonetheless - and a very strong brand overall in the United States. Coupled with Cathay's sterling brand in Hong Kong, I doubt they would have any problem profitably filling the flight.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16345 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12768 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
AA's IGW 777s have always been easily capable of flying transpolar routes, and indeed AA flew a test flight with a 777 ORD-HKG almost 10 years ago, soon after they got the planes.

However, transpolar routes weren't routinely possible, even after the test flight. It wasn't until CO really did everything necessary to fly EWR-HKG, including all the investments in alternates and proving out of regular 207 minute ETOPS flights, that they became routine.

NS


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9071 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12751 times:



Quoting AA388 (Thread starter):
i remember some one on here saying that it was because Cathy had such a big hub there and that got me thinking.. well AA flies to LHR where BA has a huge hub and they also fly to NRT where JL has a huge hub so why not Hong Kong?

What I have been told is the AA pilots wont fly it because its to long. They had to gave AA the ok for ORD-DEL.



yep.
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 12483 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5):
What I have been told is the AA pilots wont fly it because its to long. They had to gave AA the ok for ORD-DEL.

That's also the reason AA didn't get the rights to serve DFW-PEK.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
With 777s more than capable of doing it in both directions year-round without restrictions, they have absolutely no reason not to, especially considering that it would link two of the largest hubs in the oneworld network for the first time.

Lots of people wonder why AA's international network isn't quite as extensive as CO or DL's, and I think the reason is that AA's codeshare relationship with BA and CX is so strong. If AA can funnel pax on a codeshare to BA or CX, what is really the point of adding capacity to these markets? No doubt CX and BA have better in-flight service and amenities with AA, so why not let AA pax fly these airlines on the codeshare?



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12335 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):
Lots of people wonder why AA's international network isn't quite as extensive as CO or DL's, and I think the reason is that AA's codeshare relationship with BA and CX is so strong. If AA can funnel pax on a codeshare to BA or CX, what is really the point of adding capacity to these markets? No doubt CX and BA have better in-flight service and amenities with AA, so why not let AA pax fly these airlines on the codeshare?

For years AA has also focused more on international routes with a high proportion of O&D traffic which normally generate higher yields than markets where you have to depend heavily on connecting traffic. For example, I'm sure that's why AA is the only major U.S. carrier that doesn't serve AMS since it's a relatively small O&D market.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12280 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 6):


Lots of people wonder why AA's international network isn't quite as extensive as CO or DL's, and I think the reason is that AA's codeshare relationship with BA and CX is so strong. If AA can funnel pax on a codeshare to BA or CX, what is really the point of adding capacity to these markets? No doubt CX and BA have better in-flight service and amenities with AA, so why not let AA pax fly these airlines on the codeshare?

 checkmark 

Absolutely correct..

Cathay Pacific has the Hong Kong market covered more than any other airline serving the USA to Hong Kong. Per day CX operates :

2x 744 SFO-HKG (AA Connections to DFW, ORD, SNA, JFK, BOS, MIA, STL)
3x 744 LAX-HKG (AA Focus City Connections)
3x 77W/346/744 JFK-HKG (AA Hub Connections)

Hong Kong is more than well served with the Cathay Pacific Airways code-share. There are only two possible additions to the network those being ORD and DFW both of which are on AA's wish-list of future routes.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 12269 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 5):
What I have been told is the AA pilots wont fly it because its to long.

And that about sums it up.

There is one reason and word for why AA doesnt serve more long haul destinations.

And one word: Pilots.

If it werent for them, AA might be flying ORD-HKG and DFW-PEK.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12212 times:
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Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
And one word: Pilots.

What is the issue with the pilots?

I find it bizarre that they can stop an airline flying where that airline wants to fly - but I guess there are two sides to the question.

Is it money?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12086 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
What is the issue with the pilots?

I find it bizarre that they can stop an airline flying where that airline wants to fly - but I guess there are two sides to the question.

I find it bizarre, too, given the fact that pilots for EK, SQ, QR, BA, etc. (the list goes on and on) have no problem flying routes of 14+ hours. There's two separate pilot crews flying the aircraft on these long-hauls, so I've never understood what the issue is.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMcMax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 12035 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
What is the issue with the pilots?

I find it bizarre that they can stop an airline flying where that airline wants to fly - but I guess there are two sides to the question.

Is it money?

It's absolutely about the money. It seems APA believes that by not agreeing to fly longer-distance flights (which require an exception in their contract with AA), they are building themselves a great negotiating position against management in this round of contract negotiations. Frankly, it seems like it's a rather short-sighted argument to me. So you're able to flex your muscles and prevent AA from flying DFW-PEK or ORD-HKG. Good for you. Unfortunately, the pilots are so concerned with their own bottom line, they forget that the customer is ultimately king. If AA can't do the long-haul nonstops that passengers want, then they give their loyalty to the competitor who can. What happens in the long-run? AA shrinks, and pilots get laid off. (Hmmm, look what is happening right now.)

By no means am I arguing the fault lies completely with the pilots though. AA management was foolish to take those bonuses last year and this year, and they should have negotiated a much better contract with the pilots in 2003 and taken away the pilots' ability to cherry-pick which long-haul routes they would consent to.

Now, back on topic, I think another huge reason is the lack of 777s.

--Max



De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7320 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11975 times:



Quoting McMax (Reply 12):
It's absolutely about the money. It seems APA believes that by not agreeing to fly longer-distance flights (which require an exception in their contract with AA), they are building themselves a great negotiating position against management in this round of contract negotiations. Frankly, it seems like it's a rather short-sighted argument to me. So you're able to flex your muscles and prevent AA from flying DFW-PEK or ORD-HKG. Good for you. Unfortunately, the pilots are so concerned with their own bottom line, they forget that the customer is ultimately king. If AA can't do the long-haul nonstops that passengers want, then they give their loyalty to the competitor who can. What happens in the long-run? AA shrinks, and pilots get laid off. (Hmmm, look what is happening right now.)

And that about sums it up.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11977 times:

Lack of 777's , lack of Pilots agreement, fuel, competition from UA, I guess the list goes on for AA to find reason not to start ORD-HKG but I for one fail to see any of those points being a valid reason to have not started this route up some time ago. Saying that, I dont see why CX doesn't fly the route either........Am I missing something here that OW see's that we don't?

User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11973 times:
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Quoting McMax (Reply 12):
It seems APA believes that by not agreeing to fly longer-distance flights (which require an exception in their contract with AA), they are building themselves a great negotiating position against management in this round of contract negotiations.

Thanks for that, but I am still a tad confused.

Are they simply refusing to fly (say) ORD-HKG until they get a better all round contract?

Or would they fly that one route for extra money, under the existing contract but as an exception?

tia.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMcMax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 11951 times:



Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):
Lack of 777's , lack of Pilots agreement, fuel, competition from UA, I guess the list goes on for AA to find reason not to start ORD-HKG but I for one fail to see any of those points being a valid reason to have not started this route up some time ago.

1) AA doesn't get a new tranche of 777s until 2013. Without new 777s or cancelling/downgauging existing 777 routes, AA just doesn't have the long-haul aircraft available to fly ORD-HKG. And, AA is in survival mode right now--I wouldn't expect any new widebody aircraft orders or accelerated deliveries any time soon.
2) If the pilots won't fly it, AA can't operate it. It's pretty simple--the pilot contract doesn't provide for the route unless they grant an exception, and the pilots aren't going to grant an exception.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):
Saying that, I dont see why CX doesn't fly the route either

I had heard CX has been looking at HKG-ORD for a couple years now, but CX is a notoriously conservatively-run company. They don't start new routes that easily. They evaluate it, analyze it, and evaluate it again. That might explain why CX is one of the most profitable aviation companies in the world. That being said, it would be nice for CX to add ORD or DFW. But it seems CX was focusing on adding frequencies in existing markets as opposed to opening new markets.

--Max



De minimis non curat lex tamen ego curao
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5637 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 11823 times:

Don't forget that AA used to operate this route. From DFW, I mean. Nonstop DFW-HKG... on a 747SP, no less!
Early 1990s. Those were the days.


User currently offlineHaan From South Africa, joined Aug 2004, 289 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11806 times:

The aircraft might be able to do the route, but it might have some payload restrictions.

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11791 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 17):
Don't forget that AA used to operate this route. From DFW, I mean. Nonstop DFW-HKG... on a 747SP, no less!
Early 1990s. Those were the days.

You sure? I thought the only route the SP operated was DFW-NRT (which was temporary until the MD-11s arrived).

I'd love to be proved wrong, but I really don't think AA ever served DFW-HKG nonstop (and I don't think they''ve ever served HKG with their own metal).

[Edit]

I also looked it up in the photo database and found these pics of ex-AA DC10s at HKG. Very interesting stuff!

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...truecount=false&engine_version=6.0

[Edited 2008-07-24 03:16:16]


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineCloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2453 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 11704 times:

The chance of Cathay starting this route with AA codesharing is much greater than AA doing it themselves.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6344 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 11611 times:



Quoting Ssides (Reply 11):
find it bizarre, too, given the fact that pilots for EK, SQ, QR, BA, etc. (the list goes on and on) have no problem flying routes of 14+ hours. There's two separate pilot crews flying the aircraft on these long-hauls, so I've never understood what the issue is.

Paying for two crews on one trip is very expensive and The AA pilots wanted a premium rate for those two crews over and above the regular rate,


User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 11542 times:



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 21):
The AA pilots wanted a premium rate for those two crews over and above the regular rate,

Jeez. The APA is going to be the death knell for AA one of these days ...



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAA388 From Puerto Rico, joined Sep 2007, 304 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11321 times:

I wasnt aware that CX didnt fly to DFW or ORD.. So why the gap? Does CX also have a shortage of aircraft? It seems to me like these would both be bread and butter routes.


-max



Flown on A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A340-300, 737-3,5,7,8, 747-400, 757-2,3, 767-300, 777-200
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11261 times:



Quoting AA388 (Reply 23):
I wasnt aware that CX didnt fly to DFW or ORD.. So why the gap? Does CX also have a shortage of aircraft? It seems to me like these would both be bread and butter routes.

Kind of shocking actually. I thought CX did fly to HKG at one time but no pics in the database.

It would be like UA and ANA not flying SFO-NRT or NW and/or KL not flying DTW-AMS or DL and AF not flying ATL-CDG or UA and LH not flying IAD-FRA etc.etc.etc...


25 AznMadSci : With SSides, are you sure??? As he said the 747SP did DFW-NRT, and the only other international destination in the Pacific AA served from DFW were SY
26 AA388 : this post brings up yet another route not flown by AA any of their hubs to SYD. although now that i think about it Qantas has it covered very well ou
27 CX flyboy : CX to ORD with 77Ws was to be started in 2009 I heard, but that was before the fuel prices went crazy and all the plans changes.
28 LAXdude1023 : It would be nice to see it. I think CX will get there before AA for sure. It would also be nice to see CX fly to DFW 3x a week or so. I just dont see
29 Jeffrey1970 : With the airlines losing tons of money each quarter I don't think they feel that any route is "safe" right now.
30 PIAflyer : well another reason is that since AA and CX are both in Oneworld it does not really amke sense for AA to waste their time when they can just codeshare
31 Post contains links and images Jalapeno : Well, we at least get to see the silver CX 744 cargo flight! View Large View MediumPhoto © Zachary Lewis
32 Jalapeno : Maybe slightly off topic, but has American never considered obtaining any 777-3's?
33 Norcal773 : I don't know why they don't fly it and I really don't care but they need to look into it sooner or later, especially after they start operating the 78
34 YULYMX : AA would need a B772LR to make easiy ORD-HKG... UA B744 burn all the runway at ORD to takeoff to HKG...
35 LACA773 : CX is suppossed to be transitioning over to using the 77Ws out of LAX this Fall unless things have changed...
36 LAXdude1023 : Oh Hells yeah! Ive been wanting to fly on a CX 773! And im going to Hong Kong in the Fall! Ive only flown the CX 744. Do you know exactly when they w
37 AA737-823 : Yup. My dad worked for AA back in the early 90's, and the flight was listed in the expired timetables he'd bring home to me every month. Needless to
38 Jfk777 : DFW to NRT, no way an 747SP could do DFW to Hong Kong
39 MAH4546 : AA has never flown to HKG. I'm afraid you are mistaken, and confusing HKG for something else.
40 Norcal773 : How about SFO? Any chance they'll send the 77W here too?
41 Eghansen : I know that people will pick this statement apart, but American generally does not like to serve a destination from only one city. For example, to Sou
42 DfwRevolution : They evaluated the 773A at one point, but stated they could not fill it profitably all-year round from enough markets to make it worth their while.
43 Viscount724 : That is not correct as others have mentioned. And DFW-HKG is well beyond the economic range of a 747SP. It's roughly 1000 miles further than any othe
44 AA388 : what about when the A380 comes online freeing some 747-400ER's? -max
45 CX flyboy : With the start of the winter schedule one of the flights will be replaced by a 77W. At this stage I am told it is the flight which arrives late eveni
46 Aviateur : That's kind of a weird question with a long answer. Why doesn't AA fly to Hong Kong? Well, why doesn't Delta fly to Hong Kong? Why doesn't AA fly to M
47 Greggarious : Boy, I wish that applied to BOG... Whoops!
48 AussieItaliano : QF had plans to continue their MEL-LAX service on to ORD 3x per week in 2001. After 11 Sept, 2001, they cancelled those plans. I'm sure they have re-
49 Jfk777 : AA flies to Shanghai and in 2009 to Peking. They did try Taipei from San Jose in the late 1990's. HKG, Bangkok, Singapore would be great but only HKG
50 McMax : As I understand it, the terms of the APA contract with AA indicate that any additional ultra-longhaul flights which exceed certain block hours requir
51 Eghansen : Even to Bogota, AA flies two times per day. I am not saying that it is a hard and fast rule, but AA seems to prefer flying to a few cities more frequ
52 Ssides : I agree wholeheartedly with your post, but just to nitpick, AA launched ORD-DME earlier this year
53 United Airline : Thought they already planned to do HKG-ORD. But when?
54 Lambert747 : The 777-200 SJC-TPE and 767-300 SJC-CDG both began and ended in 2001..
55 Jfk777 : DElta flew LAX to HKG with MD-11's which more often then not had to stop in TPE to refuel.
56 Bobnwa : Are you saying that over 50% of the time, the flight had to divert to TPE? I would seriously doubt the accuracy of the figure.
57 Jfk777 : I am not putting a percentage on it, but it was a consistent occurance. Not a rare one.
58 LAXdude1023 : In a way im not sure if AA needs to fly to HKG at the end of the day given the strong codeshare they have. They really dont need to fly to DFW because
59 Dolphinflyer : There remain three major routes that are not yet served nonstop by the AA/CX oneworld relationship: HKG-SEA, HKG-ORD and HKG-DFW Either of those two
60 Bobnwa : The term "more often than not" implies greater than 50%. I'll bet the actual figures are not even close to that. Can you supply any figures or is thi
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