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ATC Cluster F In The Northeast Today  
User currently offlineWifiinthesky From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9430 times:

I'm streaming Boston clearance, listening to all the frustrated pilots. The storms have passed to the east of IAD, DCA, and BWI, but there's still a ton of planes sitting on the tarmac at Logan waiting for ground stops to lift to get here, not to mention guys going to CLT and ATL who need to ride J75 to get south of DC.

In addition to obvious, artificial limits of the airways themselves, pathetic that so much airport information has to come from voice contact controller or airlines ops. Wasteful and inaccurate. If an airport or airway is ground stopped, info should be electronically sent to the cockpit via ACARS or some other system, doesn't take much bandwidth. Listening to the transmissions, the only reason it doesn't sound like the conversations are taking place in 1975 is the callsigns of newer airlines.

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2698 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9396 times:

I am soooo glad I'm not working today....

airport has lost power a couple times and has multiple diversions on the ground... I love watching Flightaware on days like this to see how many planes are spinning..

Even when these GS are lifted, I'm sure the major airports will go into GDP so there will still be a long wait for some flights.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9396 times:

Good news at JFK!!!! The ground stop has been lifted!!!!*

Quoting Wifiinthesky (Thread starter):
If an airport or airway is ground stopped, info should be electronically sent to the cockpit via ACARS or some other system, doesn't take much bandwidth.

They can already do this via the airline's dispatcher. Of course, it doesn't change the fact that if your destination, or a route along the way is stopped or delayed, you're going to be sitting.

More likely the pilots are wanting to know when they're going to be able to depart from BOS, and that's something only the weather knows. There's just no way to get south from there right now, and unfortunately probably won't be for the next few hours.

-Mir




* And been replaced with a delay program, with an average delay of six hours and twenty minutes, and nobody delayed less than five hours



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9337 times:



Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Good news at JFK!!!! The ground stop has been lifted!!!!*

All,

I have so far not experienced use of the call "break break break".

This was used not long ago on JFK Tower comms to interrupt conversation between Tower and a JetBlue flighton the ground, by a Delta flight requesting a wind check on approach.

Does this call mean "what im asking has priority over what you are discussing" or something to that effect?


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9335 times:



Quoting Wifiinthesky (Thread starter):
listening to all the frustrated pilots

Imagine how frustrated the controllers are... We'd much rather have stuff going smoothly.



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9317 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 3):
Does this call mean "what im asking has priority over what you are discussing" or something to that effect?

Yup.

In JFK Tower terms, it means "shut the f*** up and let me do the talking right now because I have important things to do and they don't involve you".  Smile

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9292 times:

Yeah, sitting in the Club at TPA right now ... flight to PHL cancelled ...now re-routed through DCA. We'll see!



Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9281 times:
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I suppose the state of affairs at JFK is very similar to


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mario J Craig



I'd love to get a birds eye view of the place.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21864 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9251 times:



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 7):
I suppose the state of affairs at JFK is very similar to

If that's a 22R line (which it looks like), then yes it would be.

Out of curiosity, where did you get that shot from?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9233 times:



Quoting Mirrodie (Reply 7):
I suppose the state of affairs at JFK is very similar to

Well, that's a 'normal' day at JFK or PHL ... nothing special about a line of 10-20 aircraft waiting to depart!

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineMirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7444 posts, RR: 62
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9207 times:
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Actually, on this particular day, there were over 50 planes, trailing like a serpent around the terminals.

So I'd have to imagine that this event's operations will be very similar.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9187 times:

It is really tragic to me that cluster f***'s are so common and really and truly have no end in sight. Solutions could be implemented if someone had the cojones to actually focus on the problem for more than five minutes, but I don't hold out hope. Infrastructure isn't glamorous, and in this day and age, it's all about the shiny objects you bring back to your constituents that gets you re-elected.

It is sad to point out that until the system collapses completely, these will continue to get worse and more frequent. Consider that even after three horrendous wind-shear accidents from 1975 to 1985, and the invention and mass-production of Doppler radar systems that virtually all television stations were quick to show off, a fourth wind shear accident occured at a major airport (CLT) that did not have Doppler radar, even though every TV station had this technology!!

An absolutely horrific irony - the only people not aware (or who at least had access to) to the situation that wind shear was developing in the final landing zone and all pilots short avoid at all costs - were the pilots themselves. I think it is a universal truth that the pilots should be the FIRST to know!

So a fourth windshear accident was required to ensure that a simple technology that could save hundreds of lives by providing extra information to the pilots was installed at every major airport.

I hope and pray sincerely that our next major aviation accident in this country is not caused by factors that could be avoided with a re-design of our nation's airspace or other fixable problems. The track record on such wishes isn't good.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlinePITrules From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 3255 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 9187 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 3):
This was used not long ago on JFK Tower comms to interrupt conversation between Tower and a JetBlue flighton the ground, by a Delta flight requesting a wind check on approach.



Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
In JFK Tower terms, it means "shut the f*** up and let me do the talking right now because I have important things to do and they don't involve you".

In this case from the Delta crew to the notorious rambling JFK controllers it means "shut the f*** up stop talking to an aircraft on the ground and give me a wind check while we're still in the air"



FLYi
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9023 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 11):
It is really tragic to me that cluster f***'s are so common and really and truly have no end in sight. Solutions could be implemented if someone had the cojones to actually focus on the problem for more than five minutes, but I don't hold out hope. Infrastructure isn't glamorous, and in this day and age, it's all about the shiny objects you bring back to your constituents that gets you re-elected.

It is sad to point out that until the system collapses completely, these will continue to get worse and more frequent. Consider that even after three horrendous wind-shear accidents from 1975 to 1985, and the invention and mass-production of Doppler radar systems that virtually all television stations were quick to show off, a fourth wind shear accident occured at a major airport (CLT) that did not have Doppler radar, even though every TV station had this technology!!

An absolutely horrific irony - the only people not aware (or who at least had access to) to the situation that wind shear was developing in the final landing zone and all pilots short avoid at all costs - were the pilots themselves. I think it is a universal truth that the pilots should be the FIRST to know!

So a fourth windshear accident was required to ensure that a simple technology that could save hundreds of lives by providing extra information to the pilots was installed at every major airport.

I hope and pray sincerely that our next major aviation accident in this country is not caused by factors that could be avoided with a re-design of our nation's airspace or other fixable problems. The track record on such wishes isn't good.

With all due respect, I'm not quite sure what your point is, as you seem mixing several independent issues into one, as well as seem to be confusing Doppler weather radar (WSR-88D "NexRad") with Terminal Doppler weather radar (TDWR), which are two entirely different things with entirely different uses.

As far as the microburst-related crashes you've mentioned, I assume you're referring to EAL66 (JFK, 1975), PAA759 (MSY, 1982), DAL191 (DFW, 1985), and USA1016 (CLT, 1994).

The EAL66 and PAA759 accidents aside, it was the DAL191 accident that helped generate many technical improvements. The L-1011 had (IIRC) some 200-250 parameters recorded by its FDR (a DFDR, actually) which compared with the roughly 20-25 FDR parameters recorded by most other aircraft of the era. This rich dataset allowed industry (along with Dr. Ted Fujita, and the folks at NCAR) to make big leaps that helped the development of various items such as NexRad, and TDWR, as well as better flight sim programing and onboard predictive and reactive windshear detection equipment. Even though there was no TDWR at CLT in 1994, it seems clear that they had seen the 191 profile in the sim, and their DC-9 was equipped with onboard windshear detection equipment.

One day, we'll see TDWRs at many more airports, but until then, better sim programing, and onboard detection equipment have helped make the last 14 years since the CLT accident pretty safe as far as microburst accidents are concerned.

As far as the other issue, ATC and weather in the NE, and how easily things can (and do) get AFU, that's another issue. I tend to agree with Mike Boyd's view of FAA's historical inability to effectively manage large-scale technology projects and squandering massive bucks in the process. That aside, it also has to be recognized that routes and traffic density in the NE are such that a 50nm by 200nm area of weather are going to have a disproportionately worse affect than had that same 50nm by 200nm weather area been over ND/SD--it's just the nature of the beast. More runways would help, but are uphill fights due to rampant NIMBY-ism.

No matter what increases in airspace and/or airport capacity take place, when a line of thunderstorms comes through and affects (simultaneously) numerous airports, things are simply not going to run on-time. If aircraft can't land or takeoff for 60-120 minutes, the delays don't end once the weather clears, since many of those 1 or 2 hour's worth still need to operate, and have been pushed back in time to other others with their own traffic levels.

[Edited 2008-07-27 15:01:01]

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8970 times:

To clarify, what I meant was our antiquated systems unfortunately sometimes require a body count in order to affect changes. I didn't mean to imply that a system now could have planes flying through thunderstorms - that's unsafe no matter what technology there is! But the system is so antiquated that one storm in one location can virtually shut down airports on the entire eastern half of the continent. This shouldn't be the case, but it is, and it probably could be fixed (or at least incrementally adjusted) to allow for changes that have happened since Eisenhower was President.

Also, while being grounded is in no way a danger in the way that wind shear is, I wanted to point out that improvements to the system are few and far between, even when they can make the difference between an accident and a safe landing. Changes to America's airspace, classified as "adequate - barely", probably won't happen until outrage happens, and that is highly unlikely.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineSeaBosDca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5839 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8938 times:



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 13):
No matter what increases in airspace and/or airport capacity take place, when a line of thunderstorms comes through and affects (simultaneously) numerous airports, things are simply not going to run on-time.

 checkmark  As I've said before, the people who built so many big cities in the Northeast lacked sufficient foresight.  Wink

This is in the "pie-in-the-sky" department given the sharp U.S. preference for subsidizing only cars and airplanes, but I'd really like to see many short flights be replaced by rail so that the total number of flights arriving and departing Northeast airports at peak hours could decrease. Then there might be at least some hope of keeping the long-distance flights close to schedule.

For those not flying, the storm was pretty spectacular, at least from the window of my apartment in downtown D.C. The second most interesting one yet this summer, and wild enough to stop working and stand at the window.


User currently offlineWifiinthesky From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8881 times:

issue is not solving all ATC woes, but bringing controller-plane communications up to the level most businesses were at in the late 80s

a pilot should not have to call in to find out when the next update is expected on the ground stop at his arrival airport, or that a particular airway is closed, this is all basic background info that applies to all planes, so data that could be sent just once in a broadcast is repeated countless times, tying up the controller

clearance controller should only be communicating individual flight plans, re-routes, EDCTs etc.

and if the pilot calls in with more background info, he should then request an open airway, not guess or beg for some kind of re-route, not knowing which airports and airways are closed


User currently offlineSeafleet From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 110 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8752 times:

From the FAA website I also see ORD has equipment problems
Quote
Due to EQUIPMENT / OUTAGE, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving Chicago OHare International Airport, Chicago, IL (ORD). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 1 hour and 7 minutes. To see if you may be affected, select your departure airport and check "Delays by Destination".

Am I to assume they have radar or similar problems?
Roger


User currently offlineEtops1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8684 times:

i was working usairways flt 753 arn-phl today. we diverted to syr along with us-701 fra-phl and us-711 zrh-phl. there was also a delta 31 and klm 643 on the ground in syr . quite a day for syr spotters. we finally made it to phl at 530 pm. was supposed to arrive in phl at 145 pm. go back tomorrow to work phl-yvr at 550pm. long day to say the least.

User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3180 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8670 times:
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Oh yeah my parents were feeling the delays today. They are on BTA2447 from STL to EWR, the last ExpressJet/Continental Express flight to make it out of STL to EWR today... 5 hours late!

-JBLU


User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8588 times:

Just makes you wonder how well the minimum contingency fuel programs in effect of late play out when the WX throws planning out the window.

Okie


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8557 times:



Quoting Okie (Reply 20):
Just makes you wonder how well the minimum contingency fuel programs in effect of late play out when the WX throws planning out the window.

Those programs and/or policies are largely for VMC conditions, and those aside, FARs 121.639 and 121.647 supercede company programs and policies as far as the dispatchers are concerned. If there's weather out there, compliance with those FARs dictates that that fuel will be aboard.


User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8524 times:

Thanks OPNLguy, but just how do you estimate if you are going to be sitting in line for 30 mins, 3 hours or even longer.

Okie


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8467 times:



Quoting Okie (Reply 22):
Thanks OPNLguy, but just how do you estimate if you are going to be sitting in line for 30 mins, 3 hours or even longer.

Lots of variables, like what the coverage of the weather is (Line? Area? Scattered? Broken? Solid? Dimensions? Movement and speed?), and we also get info from ATC...


User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3188 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (6 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8425 times:

Thanks again OPNLguy

I was listening to Boston Tower and when a plane was asked to taxi, the pilot requested a little more time. Tower told him to take taxiway Hotel, Turn Right, he would have all the time he needed. Sounded like a trip to the penalty box.

Okie


25 Avi8tir : I was on CO 387 today EWR-SNA with a scheduled departure of 12:10. we pushed about 5 minutes early, taxied out - and then a ground stop was issued. sh
26 Bond007 : I knew the famous line was going to come....'antiquated systems' ! The truth is that the majority of these delays are caused by nothing more than too
27 IliriBDL : I was at work until 9:30pm, doing all the re-routing for tomorrow. The PHL flights at 4pm, 5:30pm and 8:45pm were canceled, then the 5pm DCA, as well
28 EXAAUADL : actually they do have some end in sight. With all the cancellations coming this fall plus potential airline liquidations in 2009, youll see far far f
29 LV : I do believe it's silly that I have a small little device that suction cups to my windshield that through triangulation of three satellites can tell m
30 P3Orion : Your point being? How would your Tom Tom or what ever you have solve the weather?
31 Mir : Can that little device make traffic disappear on the highway? -Mir
32 ASTROJET707 : I was stuck in the clusterfuck @ Logan. Was scheduled AA BOS-DCA-DFW, moved to AA 541 BOS-DFW and sat on the plane from 505pm EDT to just shy of 900pm
33 SeaBosDca : Only by a very generous definition of "rail service." Acela doesn't run often enough or fast enough to be as useful as it should, and the rest of the
34 Saab2000 : I was flying in the NE yesterday. Yup, it was a miserable day. As they so often are. It barely works when the weather is nice. When the weather is as
35 Post contains links Jumbojet : This delay has to take the cake. I thought that after the B6 debacle of V day a few years back that being stuck on a plane for 7 hours was a thing of
36 EXAAUADL : Air Shuttle trafffic alone isnt responsible for the delays. LGA-DCA/LGA-BOS is only a small % of traffic within the NE. Far far mroe traffic travels
37 Wifiinthesky : doubt you'll ever see fewer shuttles on LGA-DCA, business pax want the convenience, if they flew less you'd probably just see smaller planes - more RJ
38 OPNLguy : If you don't mind my asking, what kind of experience allows you to make this statement?
39 Swatpamike : Hello All This is the second time I have seen that photo, in reply 6, and I think the first aircraft looks a lot more like 757 then a 767. But I coul
40 Maverick747 : Can anyone direct me or point out a site where I can read what the terms like 'Hotel' means in terms of runway alignment?
41 Xtoler : Not everyone has ACARS. ACARS costs money.
42 PHL27RPhotog : I flew MCO-PHL on Sun. Scheduled 12:45pm departure on WN 3136 (N421LV). They announced the flight had an ATC gate hold. We finally left at 4pm! The fl
43 WhatUsaid : Last week, I was on UA 663, DCA-DEN. Boarded early. Sat for close to five hours waiting for clearance. The question was raised, as the nearest storm a
44 Post contains links OPNLguy : Here you go: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0807/00058AD.PDF
45 OPNLguy : You've kind of answered your own question. Before the storms hit the DC/PHL/NYC/BOS areas themselves, they are west of those places. Departures westb
46 Xtoler : That's one thing I don't miss about east coast flying. With that weather sometimes I wouldn't come home until 0 dark thirty in the morning right befor
47 Jderden777 : I was flying in and out of PHL all day yesterday (8 legs...in what turned out to be just shy of a 15.5 hour duty day) and we got stuck in AVP for seve
48 Bond007 : Yes, took me 12hrs to go TPA-PHL-BTV last night. Outbound TPA flight was cancelled. When I got to BTV at 1:00am, there were plenty of folks sleeping
49 Silentbob : I sat at home all day watching the weather head towards the DC, PHL, NYC, BOS corridor waiting for a call from scheduling. They ended up canceling my
50 Xtoler : Gotta love Avoca, PA! Holla! How'd that expansion go? I haven't been there since '04. The last time I was there, the coolest thing I saw was a presid
51 Wifiinthesky : but many have EFBs with Wi-Fi capabilities, could stick in airway/airport information updates to the TWLU while parked at the gate, it's all text any
52 FXRA : I would venture to say less crews are equipped with WiFi EFB's than with ACARS. I know none of our 300 or so planes have them. As a general policy, w
53 Mir : Only between Washington and Boston along the Northeast Corridor. YUL, ALB, BUF, ROC, SYR, PWM, RIC and PIT are all routes on which rail service, if i
54 A/c dxer : Heck some dont even have Selcal. Had two divert yesterday being a small airline I was jumping sent one to RIC and the other to PIT. Nasty looking sys
55 Post contains links and images Mirrodie : A few weeks ago, when this was taken View Large View MediumPhoto © Mario J Craig the line up was as follows: The line was moving but pilots know
56 Mir : Ground hold means no departures. For all intents and purposes, if the weather is bad enough for a ground hold, it probably means it's too bad for arr
57 Bond007 : Hang on! Wrong way round! A Ground STOP, is a hold on all departures TO a specific airport, from specific areas. So a Ground Stop for PHL, means no a
58 FFlyer : Yes, I was in that line on AY6 to Helsinki on that date.Two and half hours. Temperature both outside and inside the MD11 about 95 F. Even the floor u
59 Mir : Is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was a stop on departures. -Mir
60 Bond007 : Then we shouldn't be talking Ground Stops or Ground Hold ... the latter being a non-standard term, but often used interchangeably with Ground Stop. J
61 Mir : Fair enough. I thought Ground Hold would be clear enough, but I suppose not. There is no real correct term for it (Departure Stop, perhaps?) -Mir
62 Speedbird128 : There is a new system, it's called ADS (or FANS in your neck of the woods I suspect). Now ADS is satellite based, and it is really no good for termin
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