- NZs snack service on domestic flight. The Banana chips are actually really good!
- Pac Blue staff in limbo over their jobs
- Air Nelsons strike
- Qantas cuts 1500 jobs
- NZs ATR replacement
- Australia is committed to a single market with New Zealand
- PEK and Asian services
- Masterton and Paraparaumu services
- NZs B744s vs NZ B772s
- Pac Blue and NZ announce their membership to the checked-in bag fee club
- NZs Pacific Island services
- New Zealand Maori's
- Korumans usual B772/B744 route structure
- NZs Y+ seating levels/comfort on B744s vs B772s
So that was the Thread #36 summary, so lets start those engines and get cleared for take off
Xiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8680 times:
As a matter of fact, PVG is doing a lot better than PEK. Flights are constantly oversold in recent months, especially the PVG-AKL sector. Remember when NZ launched PVG, we heard that the forward bookings were even better than SFO first started. And we also heard them say PVG was a successful route. We haven't heard they say that to PEK, have we?
Koruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 2980 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 8668 times:
Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 2): As a matter of fact, PVG is doing a lot better than PEK. Flights are constantly oversold in recent months, especially the PVG-AKL sector. Remember when NZ launched PVG, we heard that the forward bookings were even better than SFO first started. And we also heard them say PVG was a successful route. We haven't heard they say that to PEK, have we?
PVG Economy sales are ok, sure, but cripple the profitability of the whole of the rest of the 777 network by requiring the fleet to be retained in its excessively economy-loaded configuration.
I disagree with Knid's suggestion that the airline should accept years of losses to China to in some way groom the routes for the future. The fate of Swissair, TWA, Pan Am, Aloha, Sabena et al should make very clear that every airline needs to balance future dreams with profitability now.
And even though the airline keeps saying PVG is profitable, they keep cutting frequency and weekly capacity so of course the aircraft end up oversold. Each time I look it up on Expert Flyer I find AKL-PVG-AKL has lots of unsold Business and Premium seats, even after all the frequency reductions.
Xiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8610 times:
Quoting Koruman (Reply 3): PVG Economy sales are ok, sure, but cripple the profitability of the whole of the rest of the 777 network by requiring the fleet to be retained in its excessively economy-loaded configuration.
I wouldn't mind NZ flying a refitted B767 with AVOD if it is viable in terms of freight. Surely B767 won't have the range to go to PEK. I always feel that NZ jumped the gun for the Olympics to PEK. And flying beyond PEK to Europe is nonsense.
Koruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 2980 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8603 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 4): PVG is popular cause of its Chinese wholesale deals, which Rob Fyfe has even admitted
But what does that mean? Gold Coast tourism chiefs told our local rag a few months ago that mainland Chinese tourists will only travel overseas if the total cost for a week incl return airfare, accom, all meals and all tours is less than $2000.
That leaves at most $1000 return for the airfare including all taxes and surcharges, which means that profit margins per passenger are wafer-thin, which is why they said that neither Jetstar nor a Chinese carrier is looking at flying OOL-PVG.
I just don't see how this market plus freight can outweigh the total lack of high-yield traffic.
Xiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8593 times:
Quoting Koruman (Reply 7): That leaves at most $1000 return for the airfare including all taxes and surcharges, which means that profit margins per passenger are wafer-thin, which is why they said that neither Jetstar nor a Chinese carrier is looking at flying OOL-PVG.
Didn't China Eastern fly PVG-BNE seasonally? New Zealand Tourism certainly wouldn't want to lose even those tourists and NZ being mostly govenment owned, you can't say there isn't pressure. Anyway, I find it only 20 seats per flight at the most traveling in a group. There should still be revenue from the rest of the cabin and cargo.
DavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1527 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 8556 times:
Quote: Japanese visitor spend was up $22 million or 5.5 per cent despite a continued decline in tourists. The money spent by Chinese tourists, which have been steadily increasing, fell by $5 million or 1.8 per cent.
Bassett said the figures showed the Japanese market remained extraordinarily valuable to New Zealand while the result for China was symptomatic of the change in type of tourist from the region.
Over the last eight years it had moved from being education focussed visitors to more leisure travellers which meant their time in New Zealand had dropped off significantly.
From this morning's NZ Herald. Interesting re Japan that the numbers are down but the value is up, while the opposite is true for China.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
I don't think it is, I think its a good idea as it gives NZ direct/better access to Europe and avoids pax flying via LHR. It also means that PEK can stay as a destination and even go daily, or would flying to Europe via PVG or HKG be better? Either way having a direct Europe flight via either PVG, PEK or HKG is good
Koruman From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 2980 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8504 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 12): I don't think it is, I think its a good idea as it gives NZ direct/better access to Europe and avoids pax flying via LHR. It also means that PEK can stay as a destination and even go daily, or would flying to Europe via PVG or HKG be better?
I'm sorry but I think that AKL-PEK-Europe is a bad idea.
Firstly, if you look at Flyertalk, both PVG and PEK are considered horrible places to transit, especially for anyone wanting a stopover.
Secondly, the beauty of both LAX and HKG is that they have affluent, large markets for outward travel both to London and Auckland. In contrast, per capita income in Greater Beijing may catch up with Niue, Rarotonga and Tonga at some point in the next couple of decades. It's big but its people are dirt poor, or to be precise poor and living in about the dirtiest place imaginable. I was listening to BBC Radio in the car yesterday and the reporter commented that at the opening of the Olympic village no-one could see through the smog from one building to the next, in spite of 50% of the city's cars being off the street and almost half the factories being temporarily closed. The bottom line is that almost every tourist knows precisely what a holiday in Beijing would offer in terms of respiratory discomfort and they choose not to go.
Thirdly, why on earth bother to salvage Beijing as a destination? Current Air NZ sales prove that no-one wants to go there and that no-one there can afford to travel to NZ.
Beijing was a stupid route to open, and it needs to be closed as soon as possible.
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11317 posts, RR: 17 Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8469 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting Koruman (Reply 14): Quoting 777ER (Reply 12):
I don't think it is, I think its a good idea as it gives NZ direct/better access to Europe and avoids pax flying via LHR. It also means that PEK can stay as a destination and even go daily, or would flying to Europe via PVG or HKG be better?
I'm sorry but I think that AKL-PEK-Europe is a bad idea.
NZ needs a European route, and IMHO it doesn't matter which Asian airport is goes via as pax will still use it no matter what compared to a 2 stop trip via either LAX/HKG and LHR
Quoting Xiaotung (Reply 13): Quoting 777ER (Reply 12):
or would flying to Europe via PVG or HKG be better?
Why would NZ go head to head with *A partner Air China via PEK? HKG or PVG seem to be the better answer.
Well why not? Why would NZ go head to head with VS on the HKG-LHR sector even when VS is part of NZs FF programme, code-share on other routes anf offer the same type of seats? The reason why other star members fly the same routes with other members is cause they usually offer different times
Aerohottie From Australia, joined Mar 2004, 735 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8440 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 16): NZ needs a European route, and IMHO it doesn't matter which Asian airport is goes via as pax will still use it no matter what compared to a 2 stop trip via either LAX/HKG and LHR
Quoting 777ER (Reply 16): Why would NZ go head to head with VS on the HKG-LHR sector even when VS is part of NZs FF programme, code-share on other routes anf offer the same type of seats? The reason why other star members fly the same routes with other members is cause they usually offer different times
If this is the case then NZ should operate the EU flight via BKK to reinstate a direct AKL-BKK service and have a stopover in a destination that people want to go to... and at an airport where pax can transfer onto TG for intra-asia services
Xiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 677 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8433 times:
Quoting 777ER (Reply 17): Wouldn't it be easier and better to have the PVG crew operate PVG-AKL-PEK-AKL-PVG and save having to pax them to PEK and other costs?
You would think. But they are actually sent to Beijing and stay at the Crowne Plaza for the night and fly to AKL the next day. On the way back, they will spend a night in Beijing as well before going home in Shanghai. I think this will change though when PEK is down to 1 weekly after the Games.
DJ738 From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 410 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8345 times:
Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 20): You still at PB? If so, hows things there? (media dont make it out to be rosey at all)
Like we've covered, the media often isn't the most accurate source for all things aviation!
Like many airlines at the moment, PacificBlue is undergoing big change. As unsettling as change can be, it is somewhat comforting to be part of one of very few airlines that are expanding and not retrenching right now.
VHSMM From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 131 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8326 times:
I just got the following email from Air New Zealand concerning the rollout of the udpated 763s and A320s
We're always looking for ways to make your journey with us even better. So if you like to be entertained from the moment you hop on the plane till the moment you get off, we're about to have that covered.
Between August and December 2008, we'll be rolling out on-demand entertainment on the back of seats in our A320 and 767 planes flying to New Zealand and the Pacific Islands. So you can enjoy your favourite movies, music releases and TV shows just like you do at home. For all the details, check out http://www.changingthewayyoufly.com.au/ .
Alangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2091 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8301 times:
Quoting Cchan (Reply 23): Why would NZ go head to head with *A partner Air China via PEK? HKG or PVG seem to be the better answer.
AirNZ already does go head to head with *A partners on several routes. LAX-LHR is one route. To Europe, Air China flies some routes from PEK, but they also fly some long haul routes to Germany from PVG. China Eastern flies from PVG to London. The CA services are codeshared with LH, so if Germany is the country that AirNZ chooses to serve, then AirNZ would be pooling their service with LH/AC.
Perhaps the solution is to restore SIN and fly to Europe through there. SIN is a good connection point for several *A carriers.
25 KiwiRob: I suggest AKL-PEK-OSL as there is a significant group of approx 100 Kiwi's living in OSL, these kiwis by NZ standards highly affluent with excessive
26 DavidByrne: . . . or hubbing through HKG to pick up East Coast Australia traffic bound for Europe - nothing has changed which diminishes this idea as a viable op
27 DavidByrne: Actually, part of NZ's problem is that the key potentially viable transit points between NZ and Europe (and I'm not trying to stimulate a debate on wh
28 Koruman: Absolutely, it's a no-brainer. Just don't forget that Air NZ's other favourite strategy at the moment is to code-share with the main potential compet
29 MotorHussy: Like AKL-HKG-LHR, AKL-EZE-LHR would be the only STARALLIANCE carrier
30 NZ107: Indeed it does, but NZ does not have the cash to be able to do what QF does on their Kangaroo Routes, nor do they have the passengers on the NZ-HKG r
31 DavidByrne: To me, the logical move would be to operate CHC-(say) SYD-HKG-(say)MAN on the same schedule as the current AKL-HKG-LHR. No more difficult to create a
32 Koruman: I honestly don't think they need to to make this work. They would operate the following daily flights from late 2009, if they take up Boeing's ofer o
33 777ER: Expanding the fleet means that they need the money to purchase more aircraft and need to hire more crew and maybe run some routes at a lost before th
34 SQ6807: If 777 is too much airplane for the route, surely the 787s would work out OK. I'd be keen to see a HKG-DUB flight, maybe even before Glasgow. I conti
35 777ER: I would rather NZ waited till once the B787s arrive before starting MAN or Glasgow, but if NZ can get some bloody good deals (like VERY heavy discoun
36 Xiaotung: SPACE+ SEATING Air New Zealand is excited to announce that our domestic fleet of 737-300 aircraft has now been refitted with the new Space+ zone at th
37 Alangirvan: DUB does have services if their passengers do not mind one change of plane along the route. They can use Etihad to AUH, and fly from there to SYD/MEL
38 777ER: So NZ is basically looking forward to less profits and angry pax who enjoy Y+ but can't purchase those seats on those affected routes by this change?
39 Alangirvan: AirNZ has just released their new Domestic Baggage Policy, though we have already discussed the main points on a.net. The major US carriers started ch
40 Xiaotung: I think these pax without status can choose to purchase H, B or Y class to be seated in SPACE+ of roughly the same price?
41 BlackLabel: A second bag, again up to 25kgs, will be charged at $15. · Gold Elite, Gold and Koru Club members will receive a second bag free. · A third bag wil
42 Xiaotung: Didn't the change now give you 50kg for free officially? This is interesting. I believe situation like this someone will be moved to Business, otherw
43 BlackLabel: Yes - but only across two bags. What happens when I travel with my bag + piece of equipment + toolbox? I really doubt NZ would upgrade anyone to busi
44 777ER: Yes they can be, but they don't get Y+ service like business class meals/drinks which NZs pax are now growing to love (like me) for Y fares. Thats wh
45 Xiaotung: I might be wrong but I thought business class services were only available to long haul premium economy flights.
46 BlackLabel: Can't speak for the Pacific routes, but you didn't get business class meals/drinks in Y+ on the Tasman run. That was another bugbear of mine when hav
47 TG992: As others have already posted, the meal and beverage service for Premium Economy on the shorthaul services is the same as economy. PPE has always bee
48 777ER: Oh, thanks for the correction guys. Everytime I've been on a long haul aircraft Tasman service, Y+ loads has been good, but my last AKL Tasman flight
49 BlackLabel: Interesting that there have been sectors where it's had zero pax! I'm still not convinced that this is a good idea. A few issues: - Space+ on the 744
50 TG992: The majority of our PPE passengers are from America, so getting food at all is always a pleasant surprise! This is a reaction I've always found stran
51 BlackLabel: Because I've bought a PE seat, and they've bought an Economy seat? If they had bought PE on the Tasman sector then fine. But if I've just spent $6K o
52 Cchan: How about on the 744 or 772 operating trans-tasman and Rarotonga?
53 BlackLabel: I was just thinking about this a little more. To use the AAmerican example, a similar thing you could expect is that top tier frequent travelers get
54 767ER: On the last few occassions I have flown the 777 SYD AKL PE had been completely empty and why would you bother. This new concept will at least fill up
55 DavidByrne: I'm truly amazed at how exercised people are about airline legroom and meals. If I want legroom I sit on my sofa at home, and if I want a nice meal Mr
56 BlackLabel: Presumably back in those days, people also didn't care whether their cellphone matched their outfit, or that their portable music device (*ahem*) was
57 777ER: Its already been said that Business class meals in Y+ isn't served on Tasman and Pacific Islands on the long haul aircraft When I fly long haul I exp
58 767ER: When I fly long haul SYD AKL LAX in BP I often ask for the Y meal SYD AKL - especially those yummy Meat Pies - rather than having two full dinners wit
59 Knid: I doubt it; I think that this is seen more as a reward for patronage, rather than a right. Is there any Space+ seating on the A320's or 767's?
60 777ER: Yes, these will be installed up the front of economy during their IFE upgrade
61 777ER: Kiwi launches $130,000 jetpack: Up, up and away Christchurch inventor Glenn Martin will unveil tomorrow his personal "jetpack" at the annual Oshkosh a
62 NZ107: Say they keep most of their current routes and then decide on starting up a mini hub in HKG. They would need a lot more aircraft than they have at pr
63 777ER: I found their fries there last year to be totally disgusting, the thick shake and hamburger also wasn't something to dive into
64 DavidByrne: Just say NZ did take up the offer of the eight 77Ls and did a one-for-one with their 744s. There's a little bit of capacity in the fleet already, bec
65 KiwiRob: I concur, I fly in Russia frequently, the food looks like jelly meat and on a Tu-134 or Tu-154 legroom is non-existent especially if you have hand lu
66 Alangirvan: News in todays Otago Daily Times that birds from the Taiaroa Head Albatross colony are being tracked off the coast of Chile - so flights from NZ to Ch
67 Mariner: I think a long-term China strategy has merit, although not, perhaps, in the half-arsed way it is done now. But then the Big Picture at Air NZ continu
68 Gasman: I've never met you so I can't actually comment; howver at 194cm I am definitely a freak, and any extra legroom makes a huge difference. This is why I
69 Koruman: The replacement of Premium Economy with Economy Space Plus on Pacific and and Tasman routes is a real kick in the teeth for high-yielding Premium Econ
70 Gasman: I agree. Is this move also going to affect the (few) trans-tasman 744 flights also??
71 Knid: While I do think that the loss of Y+ around the pacific may look bad to those up in the UK looking to fly Y+ around the pacific, I guess they will ju
72 BlackLabel: The quickest solution to that is to offer frequent flier miles (to NZ FF and, ideally, other Star FF) on the Domestic/Tasman/Pacific/Global Saver far
73 Koruman: Look, the airline tries to get people to book via the website yet it's impossible from the website to even tell whether you have a Y, B, H or M fare
74 Cchan: It is. The cheapest (full) Flexi fare is class H, the next tier is M, then B, then Y. The Flexi Saver fares are T, W, V, and Q, from cheapest to most
75 777ER: With this new space+ class on B777s and B744s, if one of those aircraft is operating AKL-Pacific Islands-LAX, is the Pacific Island-LAX sector also op
76 ANstar: why would a passenger from the UK NOT get Space + on their trans tasman sector? I would have though Premium Economy would be considered a higher fare
77 BlackLabel: Not necessarily. If UEO are no longer present on the Tasman sectors for booking, the PE fare would book into Economy fare buckets on the Tasman secto
78 Cchan: The only things I am sure about these new arrangements are that: 1) they bring lots of confusion, and 2) we will see some pissed off customers at the
79 Zkpilot: Then the seats will be assigned to either the highest FF status or expensive Y tickets one would imagine... ie NZB, NZE, NZG would be highest priorit
80 NZ107: Will an airline like NZ be prepared to risk sending so many planes to one area all at once to start off with? And Europe vs the likes of South Africa