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AC Flight Attendants To Continue Fight For Jobs.  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 3552 times:

AC flight attendants are continuing their fight to keep their jobs and their operating bases in YWG and YHZ.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia.../28/flight-attendants-rallies.html

Will AC ultimately back down and keep the bases in YHZ and YWG?

Just found that CEO Montie Brewer takes in between $30-40M a year!!! Surely he'd trim that to put back into his airline's costs.

But if AC doesn't budge this thing could snowball into the end for them. Then CO, UA or USair would have to step in....


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 3543 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):

Just found that CEO Montie Brewer takes in between $30-40M a year!!! Surely he'd trim that to put back into his airline's costs.

And where did you find that out? I call BS!


User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 3495 times:

Sorry, I meant Robert Milton...ACE chairman...check it out!!!

[Edited 2008-07-29 10:46:53]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 3473 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 2):
Sorry, I meant Robert Milton...ACE chairman...check it out!!!

Milton - that's different. And he made his money from stock options granted by shareholders of ACE, which means it didn't come out of the airline's treasury, but diluted the holding of shareholders. You can only march around and complain about that for so long when fuel is this expensive. Even if he wrote AC a cheque for $40 million, it's peanuts when your fuel bill is running above $2 billion.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 3429 times:

This is unfortunate. But this IS allowed within their contract.

When the Flight Attendants negotiated their last contract, in it was a clause that allowed base closures, WITHOUT allowing the Flight Attendants to use their seniority to bump into other bases. That's right, 30+ year F/A's in YHZ and YWG are being laid off, not being moved!

This was in exchange for gains at the time of negotiation.

Why they did it, I can't imagine, but the bottom line is ... I hope what they got in exchange for this clause was worth it!

Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
But if AC doesn't budge this thing could snowball into the end for them

The YWG and YHZ bases have been deemed inefficient and unnecessary. I hardly think closing these two very small FA bases will destroy the airline!!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3375 times:



Quoting LongHauler (Reply 4):
The YWG and YHZ bases have been deemed inefficient and unnecessary. I

 confused 

Funny. The flight attendants certainly don't think so. The YHZ attendant base has been in operation for over 30 years and has been quite busy.

Where did you get this information?



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3353 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
Just found that CEO Montie Brewer takes in between $30-40M a year!!! Surely he'd trim that to put back into his airline's costs.



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 2):
Sorry, I meant Robert Milton...ACE chairman...check it out!!!

If there is anything that should be self-evident about the airline industry in the U.S., and apparently Canada, it goes something like "never ever underestimate the unmitigated greed of today's legacy airlilne executives" ...and the endless excuses for their "do as I say, not as I do" behavior from the execs themselves as well as their sychophants here at a.net and elsewhere. Same can also be said for some non-legacy execs.


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3324 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):


Funny. The flight attendants certainly don't think so. The YHZ attendant base has been in operation for over 30 years and has been quite busy.

Where did you get this information?

Of course they don't think it's inefficient. Do you think they want to commute to their flights? But if you read the employee forums, you'll see broad agreement that they are anachronisms that were created in better times to assure employees in smaller cities would have some "good flying".

Of course, WS doesn't see the need for multiple crew bases despite its enormous growth. Having everyone base in Calgary is an essential part of that airline's success.


User currently offlinePeterPuck From Canada, joined Jun 2004, 323 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3297 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Thread starter):
But if AC doesn't budge this thing could snowball into the end for them. Then CO, UA or USair would have to step in....

How do you figure that foreign airlines could step in for Air Canada??


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3282 times:



Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
Funny. The flight attendants certainly don't think so. The YHZ attendant base has been in operation for over 30 years and has been quite busy.

Where did you get this information?

This is actually quite funny.

Flight Attendants, even the 30+ year ones are very good at their jobs. When the chips are down, those are the ones I want working in the back ... however, they DON'T know how to run an airline.

If they DID know how to run an airline, they'd have access to future bookings, yields, planning, airport office rent, etc ... all are considered when reviewing a base's feasibility. Whether or not flights into and out of YHZ are full is on a very small part of the equation.

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
The YHZ attendant base has been in operation for over 30 years

Yes, it certainly has! So?

Remember the days when airlines flew large aircraft into YHZ, then smaller connections on the DC-9 and B737 were made to YYG, YQM, YFC. YSJ, YDF, YJT, YQY, YQI. etc etc etc. In those days a YHZ base made sense. Now, there are far more flights directly into these Maritime airports, and the ones that don't warrant, are not even flown on AC equipment ... like YQY.

There is very little "natural" YHZ flying. In fact looking at the F/A pairings for YHZ, the only true YHZ flying is the daily YHZ-LHR-YHZ flight. And for the record, the pilots for that flying, fly it as a W ... YYZ-LHR-YHZ-LHR-YYZ.

The vast majority of YHZ F/A pairings start with and end with YHZ-YYZ, or YHZ-YUL, then do YYZ and YUL flying, but with the added expense of hotel/meals at YYZ/YUL ... not efficient at all!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3274 times:

My feeling is that the lay-offs will go ahead as planned for November 1st and the only thing that will likely change is in the details where the flight attendants may get an enriched severance for those effected. I wouldn't be surprised (surprised they haven't already) if AC offers an early-out package a little closer to what some of the legacy carriers have so far proposed in the USA.
Any suggestion by the flight attendants that somehow AC must have bases in Winnipeg and Halifax as they are operationally essential is questionable at best. I do give them credit for trying to spin it in the media that somehow it will lessen service as I would do the same thing to save my job. The days of service are long gone for domestic travel in North America and it's all about it being a commodity that is driven by consumers preference for lower prices. The days of AC being obliged to having crew bases in every region have been relegated to the history books and that's the reality of what happens when a crown corporation is privatised (1988).
What is surprising is the amount of flight attendants that will be laid-off in Vancouver. It's already been announced that service to KIX will be terminated with PEK and SHA having their combined frequencies reduced 50%,whether that fully accounts for the level of reductions in positions is anyone's guess. Interestingly enough their is a considerable increase in E90 flying out west for the winter schedule and with the removal of the B762 fleet that may be what is driving the reduction in numbers.


User currently onlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3269 times:



Quoting Sebring (Reply 3):
Even if he wrote AC a cheque for $40 million, it's peanuts when your fuel bill is running above $2 billion.

How much these FA's are making per year? 40k? That's 1000 FA's...or 600 if you count in the benefits. So how much will laying off 2000 FA's save? $ 80M, or $ 100M with benefits? Still peanuts...

BTW, how much money did ACE made in 2007?


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3242 times:



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 11):



Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 11):

How much these FA's are making per year? 40k? That's 1000 FA's...or 600 if you count in the benefits. So how much will laying off 2000 FA's save? $ 80M, or $ 100M with benefits? Still peanuts...


The airline is cutting 7% of flying. If you do the sum of the 2,000 employees who will no longer be needed to handle that flying, you are talking about wage and benefit costs well north of $150 million per year. What would you suggest? Cut the flying but not the associated cost for the sake of union featherbedding?


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

In my opinion, the real tragedy is not that the bases are closing. That's business. What we don't want to hear is "that's the way we've always done it!".

The real tragedy, is that the union traded away protection for these F/A's in exchange for other considerations. When it came to ratification of the last contract, I wonder if the Toronto F/A's (for example) voted for this concession knowing it would never affect them, but gained in the considerations?

I am hoping Air Canada shows a little compassion and allows these F/A's to use their seniority at other bases, or allows a no penalty retirement.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3134 times:



Quoting 9252fly (Reply 10):
What is surprising is the amount of flight attendants that will be laid-off in Vancouver. It's already been announced that service to KIX will be terminated with PEK and SHA having their combined frequencies reduced 50%,whether that fully accounts for the level of reductions in positions is anyone's guess

Reality is that AC is loosing altitude fast on Asian markets out of Vancouver. Price wise they can't compete with Asian carriers. That being said I would expect further cuts in service and personnel at YVR beyond 2010 Winter Olympic Games.


User currently onlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2625 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3090 times:



Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):

With all due respect, I was reacting to your statement calling $ 40M peanuts compared to $ 2 Bn. Well, compared to that, 150M + is still peanuts, isn't it?

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
What would you suggest?

Perhaps not to cut flying but rather lure customers away from the competition?

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
for the sake of union featherbedding?

Well, this is one of things I never understood in 7 years living in Canada and probably will never understand...relationship between the employers and employees and the relationship to the unions. (BTW, I'm not a union member). Where is no union present, the employer will literally abuse the employees. I worked for the company like this. Shitty pay, long hours and not even a thank you for that. The result is that the people are permanently coming and going, no stability. So to the companies like this: thank you, never again. OTOH where the unions are present, the unions will never stop demanding and can easily drive the company to the ground. Why can't be there some kind of understanding? Why everyone has to be extremely greedy?

BTW, you didn't answer the question about ACE's EBIT for 2007.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3078 times:



Quoting Connector4you (Reply 14):
Reality is that AC is loosing altitude fast on Asian markets out of Vancouver. Price wise they can't compete with Asian carriers. That being said I would expect further cuts in service and personnel at YVR beyond 2010 Winter Olympic Games.

What I find surprising is that the China reductions are occurring shortly after the Olympics where one would assume awareness and interest in China would increase. It should be noted that Air China has up-gauged their daily PEK-YVR service from a B763 to a A333 and AC does code-share on that daily flight making their reduction in frequencies on the YVR-PEK route less risky. SHA I would have thought should have been kept daily with it being a Shanghai Airlines Star Alliance hub with no other competing carrier. It would seem that AC has it's focus on making YYZ their Asian gateway,even though it's been a challenge for them to get the YYZ-PEK and YYZ-SHA up to daily service. YVR-China has never been that significant of a market compared to the potential out of eastern Canada when looking at what aircraft CP operated to China prior to the AC merger/takeover.
I don't entirely agree with your expectation that AC will make further substantial cuts in YVR after the 2010 Winter Olympics. Rather,I would expect them to continue their focus on YYZ. How that impacts YVR is to be seen. The hype and associated buildup in YVR is in my opinion is going to be a little bit of a let-down after the games. Oh well,at least the speculators and promoters will have made their money and long left town.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3008 times:



Quoting Connector4you (Reply 14):
Reality is that AC is loosing altitude fast on Asian markets out of Vancouver.

Not at all. Air Canada will offer the same number of seats to China next year as this year ... they just wont be on Air Canada equipment. They are code-sharing with Chinese airlines between Canada and China, as with Chinese wages, it can be done much cheaper.

So add air travel to the industries China is taking over by paying employees in cents instead of dollars.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2992 times:



Quoting 9252fly (Reply 16):
It should be noted that Air China has up-gauged their daily PEK-YVR service from a B763 to a A333 and AC does code-share on that daily flight making their reduction in frequencies on the YVR-PEK route less risky

That seems to be their current strategy at YVR: codesharing on somebody else's metal (LH, UA, US, MX, NZ and now CO) and maximize labor savings.

For those not familiar with AC's operations @ YVR, the one and only direct non-stop destination to Europe served by AC out of Vancouver - using its own metal - is London Heathrow !!!

While the "codeshare thing" may work with Lufthansa on YVR to FRA because of low transatlantic capacity, the Asian codeshare would only produce marginal profits to AC due to competitive factors.

Materially speaking, AC is slowly but surely moving out of Vancouver.


User currently offlineMultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2895 times:



Quoting 9252fly (Reply 16):
It would seem that AC has it's focus on making YYZ their Asian gateway,even though it's been a challenge for them to get the YYZ-PEK and YYZ-SHA up to daily service. YVR-China has never been that significant of a market compared to the potential out of eastern Canada when looking at what aircraft CP operated to China prior to the AC merger/takeover.

Air Canada has always been "Central Canada's National Airline". Their understanding of the West is shockingly poor. The only saving grace for them is that Westjet doesn't fly internationally, if they did, AC would be cooked on the left coast. They must be saying prayers in YUL, hoping that WS doesn't buy the 787.


User currently offlineLongHauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2869 times:



Quoting Multimark (Reply 19):
Air Canada has always been "Central Canada's National Airline". Their understanding of the West is shockingly poor. The only saving grace for them is that Westjet doesn't fly internationally, if they did, AC would be cooked on the left coast. They must be saying prayers in YUL, hoping that WS doesn't buy the 787.

This is probably very accurate ... much like Canadian Airlines. Its not that Westjet or Canadian (for that matter) is any better than Air Canada, it is more that they are NOT Air Canada. Air Canada is viewed in the west as an "eastern French Canadian airline" and Canada's past time of hating Air Canada is strongest in the west.

I remember reading an editorial in the Vancouver Sun about airlines in general, and their comments were "A western Canadian would rather walk, then get onto an Air Canada airplane!". With Canadian Airlines out of the way ... Westjet cashed/cashes in on the anti-Air Canada sentiment.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 20):
I remember reading an editorial in the Vancouver Sun about airlines in general, and their comments were "A western Canadian would rather walk, then get onto an Air Canada airplane!". With Canadian Airlines out of the way ... Westjet cashed/cashes in on the anti-Air Canada sentiment.

Indeed,Canadians are a odd people,always identifying and thinking in terms of themselves being from the east or west. As far as the AC bashing,I would also add the following hated companies;Telus,Bell,Canada Post,Rogers,TD Trust,Royal Bank,CIBC,Scotia Bank and there must be more? It's a truly favourite Canadian pastime.

[Edited 2008-07-29 18:37:02]

[Edited 2008-07-29 18:37:47]

User currently offlineConnector4you From Canada, joined May 2001, 932 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2787 times:



Quoting 9252fly (Reply 21):
Indeed,Canadians are a odd people,always identifying and thinking in terms of themselves from the east or west. As far as the AC bashing,I would also add the following hated companies;Telus,Bell,Canada Post,Rogers,TD Trust,Royal Bank,CIBC,Scotia Bank and there must be more. It's truly a favourite Canadian pastime.

I don't think it's a "truly favourite" or a "national sport" but rather a way of expressing frustration at "past time laws" that still deter free competition and multiple choices for Canadians on many walks of life.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1393 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2734 times:



Quoting Connector4you (Reply 22):
I don't think it's a "truly favourite" or a "national sport" but rather a way of expressing frustration at "past time laws" that still deter free competition and multiple choices for Canadians on many walks of life.

Hmmm,got me thinking that the frustration is a relative term in that many people around the world would be grateful to have what we call our lack of competition and choice. I've had the pleasure of seeing how easy we have it in my travels and I'm sincerely grateful to live in this country. Frustration with "past time laws",christ,Canadians couldn't be that pathetic?


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