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5th Freedom US To Australia: Possible?  
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2618 times:

Just more of a curiosity of mine than anything else at the moment.

After my wife and I's fabulous first experience with SQ, we were wondering if it's possible to fly a 5th freedom flight to Australia and back from the US. SQ's website will quote a round trip ticket from SFO to SYD, but I think I've seen mention on this website that Australia currently doesn't allow that.

If not, would, say, a one day stop in SIN allow us to book such an itenerary?


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2601 times:

Your question is not well worded. The only carrier with 5th freedom rights between the USA and Australia (to my knowledge) is NZ, but they do not use the privledge. 5th freedom would be an airline not of USA or Australian registration flying the route non-stop.

There are lots of foreign airlines that will fly the route with 1 (or more) stops and you don't have to stop for more than the time necessary to make the connection. Examples are SQ, KE, NZ, EK, TG, JL, NH......


User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2587 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
Your question is not well worded. The only carrier with 5th freedom rights between the USA and Australia (to my knowledge) is NZ, but they do not use the privledge. 5th freedom would be an airline not of USA or Australian registration flying the route non-stop.

Aah, I wasn't aware of that restriction. I thought 5th freedom meant fly the route, period. Thanks  Smile



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25550 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2584 times:
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I've flown it on a Star Alliance Circle Pacific fare - LAX-AKL-SYD (Air NZ) then SYD-SIN-LAX on SQ, all as one ticket.

It was a pretty good bargain, too.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6428 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 months 4 weeks ago) and read 2568 times:



Quoting Mariner (Reply 3):
It was a pretty good bargain, too.

Yeah, I've noticed that once you get away from the QF/UA duopoly on the (US) Kangaroo Route, the fares get much more reasonable  Wink



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25843 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

SQ's service U.S.-Australia via SIN (or any of the many other Asian carriers that can carry passengers U.S-Australia via their hubs) is not 5th freedom. It's 6th freedom and you don't need any official approval to do that. You're just combining your own 3rd/4th freedom services, e.g. LAX-SIN plus SIN-SYD for SQ.

You can often find competitive fares on Asian carriers to Australia, and to PER it can be shorter via Asia than via SYD especially from the East Coast of the U.S.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
Your question is not well worded. The only carrier with 5th freedom rights between the USA and Australia (to my knowledge) is NZ, but they do not use the privledge.

AC also has 5th freedom rights HNL-SYD (and I think they operated HNL-MEL briefly a few years ago),. AC also has rights from SFO to Australia if they ever wanted to operate that route. Those rights date back to the first Canada-Australia bilateral in the late 1940s. AC dropped HNL-SYD (inherited from their merger with Canadian Airlines) when they started YVR-SYD nonstop service several months ago.


User currently offlineBakestar From Australia, joined Sep 2005, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

We'll have a much clearer picture when V Australia start flying the route, next year is it? Watch the price wars start when V Australia do!


fly'nhi
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2369 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
AC also has 5th freedom rights HNL-SYD (and I think they operated HNL-MEL briefly a few years ago),. AC also has rights from SFO to Australia if they ever wanted to operate that route. Those rights date back to the first Canada-Australia bilateral in the late 1940s. AC dropped HNL-SYD (inherited from their merger with Canadian Airlines) when they started YVR-SYD nonstop service several months ago.

Canada's not a real country is it? I thought is was just a suburb of the USA or something. (Just kidding, I had forgotten about the Canadian 5th freedoms on the Australian routes. You are correct).


User currently offlineJbernie From Australia, joined Jan 2007, 880 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2332 times:



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Yeah, I've noticed that once you get away from the QF/UA duopoly on the (US) Kangaroo Route, the fares get much more reasonable

That is a bit harsh, the other fares are so cheap because they generally take you too far out of the way to make them a normal selection and you are probably routing more on two direct flights between three cities as opposed to two.

SYD-LAX is about 13 hours

SYD-SIN is about 8 hours
SIN-LAX is about 19 hours with some kind of stop over on the way. (looking on orbitz)

Naturally the demand is going to be for the shorter more direct flight. The more a service is demanded the more that can be charged for such a product.

Of course should you needs dictate that a stop over in Asia is required, or you would rather pay less for double the flight length then obviously you can select one of the other carriers.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25843 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2308 times:



Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
I had forgotten about the Canadian 5th freedoms on the Australian routes. You are correct

I'm guessing BA probably still holds dormant 5th freedom rights since they dropped their JFK-SFO-HNL-NAN-SYD service that operated during the 1960s and early '70s. For a while I believe the SFO stop changed to LAX. They of course couldn't carry domestic U.S. traffic but could everywhere else. During those years BA also operated SFO-HNL-HND.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5760 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2227 times:



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
It's 6th freedom and you don't need any official approval to do that. You're just combining your own 3rd/4th freedom services, e.g. LAX-SIN plus SIN-SYD for SQ

That's not always true. A country CAN forbid an airline from another country selling tickets, in its terrority, to a 3rd country. Wether this is effective can be debated.

The subject certainly came up in the negotiations for a new bilateral between SIN & Oz when SIN succedded from Malaysia. How do you think SIN paid for SQs 6th freedom rights Oz-UK? By giving QF 5th freedom rights beyond SIN.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineTayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2110 times:

relevant links:

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...tion/international/agreements.aspx <-- lists all agreements.

AU-CA:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1988/12.html

Vancouver & Sydney are the only end-points listed for each country's carriers, and both countries list: Honalulu, San Francisco, Tahiti and Fiji as stopover points.

AU-SING:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1967/25.html

Australian carriers can go through points in Indonesia to get to Singapore and fly on to anywhere EXCEPT Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, The Philippines, PRC & The US and Canada via the Pacfic.

Singaporean carriers can go through points in Indonesia to get to Australia and can only follow on to Auckland.

AU-NZ:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/2003/18.html

quoting:

ROUTE SCHEDULE

A. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Government of New Zealand

1. From points behind New Zealand via New Zealand, and any intermediate point(s), to any point(s) in Australia, and beyond.

2. For all-cargo services, between Australia and any point or points.

B. Routes for the airline or airlines designated by the Government of Australia

1. From points behind Australia via Australia, and any intermediate point(s), to any point(s) in New Zealand, and beyond.

2. For all-cargo services, between New Zealand and any point or points.

--- the grand-pappy of AUS's air agreements.

[Edited 2008-07-30 03:37:12]

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