LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4337 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
TAM will add another A330-200 to it's Madrid route effective October 26th 2008.
With this change, MAD-GRU will be overnight with the following schedule:
JJ8064 GRU 2030 MAD 1125
JJ8065 MAD 2050 GRU 0520
JJ will receive 4 A332, 4 77W (to replace 3 M11) and is expect to get 2 to 4 763 also during the next 6 months. This is the first (official) use of such aircraft.
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6734 posts, RR: 50 Reply 1, posted (3 years 9 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4262 times:
Thanks Felipe, very interesting. As is the case with most flights between Brazil and Europe, and Brazil and North America, the JJ plane will remain parked in MAD for a rather long time. Do you think it would be convenient for JJ to consider a tag-on destination in Europe to which it could fly from MAD with fifth freedom rights (like LA's SCL-MAD-FRA)?
JJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 21 Reply 2, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4204 times:
Also MXP will become redeye flight in a short period of time. What is bad is that during 3 weeks MXP will be operated by B763 before the introduction of the A345. A real disaster to me.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 3, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4158 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1): Thanks Felipe, very interesting. As is the case with most flights between Brazil and Europe, and Brazil and North America, the JJ plane will remain parked in MAD for a rather long time. Do you think it would be convenient for JJ to consider a tag-on destination in Europe to which it could fly from MAD with fifth freedom rights (like LA's SCL-MAD-FRA)?
Eddie, i don't think so. Lets see: CDG is well served, LHR and MXP also. FRA they fly with their own equipment as well as effective August 18 will begin the code-share on LH flights (to MUC also as well as HAM, DUS and Berlin. Also, their A332 is not a huge equipment and it's enough just for MAD.
As a side note LH will offer GIG, BSB, POA and CWB.
The best option in my opinion is that they change the departure from São Paulo to include MAD on the late night departures bank.
Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 2): Also MXP will become redeye flight in a short period of time. What is bad is that during 3 weeks MXP will be operated by B763 before the introduction of the A345. A real disaster to me.
Yes, from 10 August to 05 September MXP will run with 2 763.
It will allow GIG to begin as off Sept 05 as the plane from MXP that departs Sep 04 probably will be ready to finally begin the GIG-MIA flight on Sep 05. I expect TAM to introduce the flight on the reservation system no later than August 05 (too late IMO)
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 6, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3915 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 5): And what about after Sept 05, what TAM will do with the 763 ? A lot of different information from diferent sources.
Kinda weird to think about redelivering those birds in just two months.
Agreed my friend and we discussed on other forum, dates are adjusted for TAM to begin the expected GIG-MIA service with the 763.
But at the same time, IMO, one month in advance for advertising and sell a new long-haul flight (even being a market they already provide service for more than 10 years) is not the right timing.
Also, we're waiting for ANAC to release the first 763.
Do you have any info on the second one ? It's ready to fly ??
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
VbeltraJJ From Brazil, joined Apr 2007, 83 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3882 times:
Lipe,
I am still trying to find it out but those problems are well kept under 7 keys!!
Anyway, as I told on the other forum, I have acess to a preview of aircraft registration and on this preview it stills shows 4 763 (PT-MSU, PT-MSQ, PT-MSS and PT-MSR).
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 8, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3812 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 7): Anyway, as I told on the other forum, I have acess to a preview of aircraft registration and on this preview it stills shows 4 763 (PT-MSU, PT-MSQ, PT-MSS and PT-MSR).
Victor,
I just got the info at Contato Radar that TAM released the schedule for GIG-MIA with two weeks of delay (begin Sep 20). Lets see how long does it takes to release the other two potential birds.
Regards,
Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 12, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3534 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 11): Yes, quicker would be the correct word.
I was afraid of the next moves but I think that now everything is back on track.
Strong rumors about they returning 2 of the 4 763's, lets see how the ANAC request for the frequencies to JFK is going on (IIRC there's 1 pending item). I believe TAM can begin a new flight to Europe next year. Considering hubs, Star Aliance and all the rest, my bets continue to be GRU-ZRH and GIG-FRA
I continue to expect the right move to be using the 77W to CDG and to reduce flights to 17/18 from 21.
Quoting VbeltraJJ (Reply 11): Now we should wait for GRU-LIM and GIG-JFK.
Yes !!!!! My long expected non-stop JFK-GIG flight
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 3731 posts, RR: 6 Reply 13, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3502 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter): TAM will add another A330-200 to it's Madrid route effective October 26th 2008.
With this change, MAD-GRU will be overnight with the following schedule:
JJ8064 GRU 2030 MAD 1125
JJ8065 MAD 2050 GRU 0520
This new arrangement may take advantage over IB as the Brazilian airline is not offering anymore daylight operations out of MAD. This fact may benefit at those premium travelers who are traveling on JJ.
The current bilateral agreement between Brazil and Peru doesn't allow more than 28 frequencies for the time being:
TA GRU-LIM. 14x weekly.
TA GIG-LIM. 4x weekly.
LP GRU-LIM. 10x weekly.
On the other hand, G3 LIM-SCL-EZE-GRU-GIG 7x weekly is the sole regular route being operated by any Brazilian carrier in Peru.
C010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3265 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3488 times:
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
The current bilateral agreement between Brazil and Peru doesn't allow more than 28 frequencies for the time being:
TA GRU-LIM. 14x weekly.
TA GIG-LIM. 4x weekly.
LP GRU-LIM. 10x weekly.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 15, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3441 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13): This new arrangement may take advantage over IB as the Brazilian airline is not offering anymore daylight operations out of MAD. This fact may benefit at those premium travelers who are traveling on JJ.
But the fact is that, the new schedule basically means they will double the fixed asset invested on the route (as well as overnight flights will demand 2 shifts), and considering the market Europe-Brazil nowadays, i doubt they might increase fares for more than 20%.
IMO, this second plane is a waste of equipment. They could for example open a flight to a new destination, or even a second flight to MAD together with this second plane.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 17, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3341 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting AF022 (Reply 16): Slightly off topic, but how is TAM doing with the A345 to FRA? Are their yields & loads strong enough to offset the high fuel cost?
Loads are good to very good, around 75 to 85%. I don't know about the profitability of the flight, but in my opinion, considering current fares, it's not so profitable. And the A345 remain parked on both airports during the day which means there is no extra revenue (In São Paulo for long 16 hours).
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
AF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2031 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3314 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17): Loads are good to very good, around 75 to 85%. I don't know about the profitability of the flight, but in my opinion, considering current fares, it's not so profitable. And the A345 remain parked on both airports during the day which means there is no extra revenue (In São Paulo for long 16 hours).
Considering the fuel burn rate of this aircraft, TAM is certainly better off leaving it on the ground unless there is a high-yield route to send it to. Beyond GRU to CNF or GIG, or beyond FRA to ARN or CPH would be highly unprofitable. They are doing the right thing.
PA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3295 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1): As is the case with most flights between Brazil and Europe, and Brazil and North America, the JJ plane will remain parked in MAD for a rather long time.
Are the night flights so much more popular with premium travellers or how come that the airlines have their equipment parked in FRA, CDG, MAD and so on for the full day???
Same question applies to QF that gets into FRA as early as 06:00am and doesn't leave till 23:55...
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 20, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3221 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting AF022 (Reply 18): Considering the fuel burn rate of this aircraft, TAM is certainly better off leaving it on the ground unless there is a high-yield route to send it to. Beyond GRU to CNF or GIG,
You're right about the fact of leaving it on the ground it's better than flying and short legs to GIG, CNF or even on Europe are not a good idea IMO as the A345 has been designed for very long routes and will not perform short legs with profit. Better to use an Airbus A320 for this.
Quoting PA101 (Reply 19): Are the night flights so much more popular with premium travellers or how come that the airlines have their equipment parked in FRA, CDG, MAD and so on for the full day???
Same question applies to QF that gets into FRA as early as 06:00am and doesn't leave till 23:55...
PA101, here on A.Net you will find two opinions:
The First is that "Premium" Travellers like overnight flights because they do not lose a day. But they do need to leave their jobs or house early in the night of during the afternoon as well as they need to reach their hotel/home early in the morning (considering traffic and rush hours).
But the other opinion is that it's a matter of time zones. You wont see any US airline flying FRA-MIA for example with a 2 AM departure (which should allow the plane to reach MIA by 5 AM). All departures Europe-North America are daylight, and i don't know any "premium" that complains... 2 777 in US-Europe provides 2 round-trip flights, selling F, C and Y. 2 777 in Europe-South America, provides only 1 round-trip flight...
Leaving Europe by 23:30 for example, you got on Brazil (GIG/GRU) by 5/6 AM but if you leave Brazil by 8/9 AM you got to Europe closer to midnight, so you will not offer any valuable connection and will need to trust just on O&D, and no one is crazy to do it. So European airlines that runs overnights to Brazil, need to wait 7/8 hours to send their planes back but they begin to realize there is a market for daylights, and that's how AF, KL, TP and IB are increasing their flights. TP runs all flights (also KL but they have only one) as daylights and they charge the same fare the others get for an overnight.
TAM in the same hand, need to wait 7 to 8 hours (their planes arive in Europe by 1/3 PM and departs by 10/11 PM) as if they do an immediate turn-around they will arive GRU and GIG by 1 AM, and they also can't offer so much connections.
But in TAM's case, they will offer overnight because GRU-MAD with a single plane is too much and too far. IB run this route but they use other aircrafts to allow the rotation, TAM is on it's limits as they use 5 planes on daylights (JFK, MIA, SCL, MAO and charters) and 1 got maintenance. The other 6 are on the other side of routes (CDGx2, LHR, JFK, MIA and MAD)
The second plane is a way to make sure they can offer a good service.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
PA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3153 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20): PA101, here on A.Net you will find two opinions:
Yeah - however, I give less on opinions, more to the actual practice - and therefore, I'm surprised that so many carriers prefer to park their equipment for a full day (not just European carriers in South America and vice versa, but the same applies to QF or the flights to South Africa) rather than having them create any extra revenue.
Quote: The First is that "Premium" Travellers like overnight flights because they do not lose a day. But they do need to leave their jobs or house early in the night of during the afternoon as well as they need to reach their hotel/home early in the morning (considering traffic and rush hours).
And not to forget:
pay extra for their hotels, since most hotels don't allow check-in until the early afternoon. As a tourist, I therefore hate getting to my destination early in the morning.
Quote: But the other opinion is that it's a matter of time zones. You wont see any US airline flying FRA-MIA for example with a 2 AM departure (which should allow the plane to reach MIA by 5 AM). All departures Europe-North America are daylight, and i don't know any "premium" that complains...
Exactly...
Quote: 2 777 in US-Europe provides 2 round-trip flights, selling F, C and Y. 2 777 in Europe-South America, provides only 1 round-trip flight...
So the yields have to make up for it, don't they?
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20): So European airlines that runs overnights to Brazil, need to wait 7/8 hours to send their planes back but they begin to realize there is a market for daylights, and that's how AF, KL, TP and IB are increasing their flights. TP runs all flights (also KL but they have only one) as daylights and they charge the same fare the others get for an overnight.
Wondered why it took them so long - in the old days, when those planes went on to EZE or SCL, fair enough, they got back in time for an overnight return, but nowadays, where e.g. LHs GRU-flights end in GRU most of the time, a 10:00am departure e.g. would do it just fine - gets you into GRU at around 18:30/18:45 - still early enough for connections AND providing a conveniant overnight flight back to Europe. Still, LH parks its 744 in GRU for more than 12 hours, leaving FRA at 22:30 and getting into GRU at 5:35 (while the MUC flight returns as early as 12:30pm).
SJOtoLIR From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 3731 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3071 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 1): it would be convenient for JJ to consider a tag-on destination in Europe to which it could fly from MAD with fifth freedom rights (like LA's SCL-MAD-FRA)?
This tag-on model seems to be more applicable to LAN instead.
For example, LA will initiate LA SCL-JFK-YYZ on September 02nd.
Regards.
LipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, RR: 64 Reply 23, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3051 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting PA101 (Reply 21): And not to forget:
pay extra for their hotels, since most hotels don't allow check-in until the early afternoon. As a tourist, I therefore hate getting to my destination early in the morning.
Correct. I personally prefer a daylight. I lose a day ? But i'm fresh on the next morning, and i won't be late for a first meeting. In the other hand, the one that flies overnight, need to leave the office early in the afternoon, will not sleep so well as i and will need to pay the same day rate as i for just a couple of hours as well as will be able to be for meetings, in the better scenario, only by 11 AM considering immigration, customs and early morning rush traffic.
Quoting PA101 (Reply 21): So the yields have to make up for it, don't they?
Yes, but the question is that... it's impossible to increase fares by 75% to 90% and even considering they can use the plane during the day in Brazil (which also comes with extra expense), in my opinion it's a waste of valuable resources to introduce a 2nd plane on this route at this time (it's easy to find out Business Class deals Brazil-Europe for less than US$ 3,000 = EUR 1,950)
Quoting PA101 (Reply 21): Wondered why it took them so long - in the old days, when those planes went on to EZE or SCL, fair enough, they got back in time for an overnight return, but nowadays, where e.g. LHs GRU-flights end in GRU most of the time, a 10:00am departure e.g. would do it just fine - gets you into GRU at around 18:30/18:45 - still early enough for connections AND providing a conveniant overnight flight back to Europe. Still, LH parks its 744 in GRU for more than 12 hours, leaving FRA at 22:30 and getting into GRU at 5:35 (while the MUC flight returns as early as 12:30pm).
PA101, in this case it's a matter of competition. LH itself provides a FRA-GRU overnight flight and allows people to do MUC-FRA-GRU / GRU-MUC and this caused MUC-GRU to be the worst leg and demand LH to add a second plane. Looking to TP, they don't offer an overnight and therefore if a Portuguese wants to fly overnight, they need to depart LIS/OPO just a few hours after the daylight to catch an overnight at LHR, MAD, CDG or FRA. In the end, we can say the O&D MUC-GRU is minimum otherwise it can sustain the flight like AMS and LIS for all Brazilian destinations (BSB, CNF, FOR, GIG, GRU, NAT, REC, SSA).
IMO, would be better to LH if they get these 4 planes and run FRA-GRU overnight, FRA-GRU daylight with one plane and FRA-GIG daylight with one plane, asking TAM to introduce a GRU-MUC flight.
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
PA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 475 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (3 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3031 times:
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23): Correct. I personally prefer a daylight. I lose a day ? But i'm fresh on the next morning, and i won't be late for a first meeting. In the other hand, the one that flies overnight, need to leave the office early in the afternoon, will not sleep so well as i and will need to pay the same day rate as i for just a couple of hours as well as will be able to be for meetings, in the better scenario, only by 11 AM considering immigration, customs and early morning rush traffic.
Exactly, so I really don't understand, why the anonymous premium traveller is supposed to like overnight flights better...
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23): Yes, but the question is that... it's impossible to increase fares by 75% to 90% and even considering they can use the plane during the day in Brazil (which also comes with extra expense), in my opinion it's a waste of valuable resources to introduce a 2nd plane on this route at this time (it's easy to find out Business Class deals Brazil-Europe for less than US$ 3,000 = EUR 1,950)
Just my thoughts - but with e.g. LH actually having their equipment sit on the tarmac, it somehow has to make sense for them...
Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 23): IMO, would be better to LH if they get these 4 planes and run FRA-GRU overnight, FRA-GRU daylight with one plane and FRA-GIG daylight with one plane, asking TAM to introduce a GRU-MUC flight.
Yeah, however, it would make more sense the other way around:
FRA - GRU daylight (e.g. for the European summer: lv. FRA at 10:00am, getting into GRU at 16:45; leaving GRU at 18:45, arriving FRA 11:00; and for the winter, it would be: FRA - GRU 10:00-18:45 GRU-FRA 20:45 - 11:00).
I'd love to see LH serve GIG again, but they obviously didn't consider the yields worth it...
25 LipeGIG: Yes, we have to consider that overnight flights allow them to rotate the plane with other route like GRU-MUC-Asia-MUC-GRU Agree. But seems that even
26 UPPERDECKFAN: It's what the market dictates as every strong station in the deep Southern hemisphere seems to work the same as JNB, EZE, GRU, SCL, SYD all get multi
27 PA101: Well that was the question LipeGIG and I were discussing - does the market really dictate that, or is it a matter of having always flown that way and
28 Rafabozzolla: It's a valid point, but... TP is in a very particular situation (shorter flight times, specially to the Brazilian NE, multiple destinations in Brazil
29 UPPERDECKFAN: Enphasizing what Rafa said, IB and AF are double daily to GRU so it makes sense to offer a redeye and a daylight to fulfill all the preferences. When
30 PA101: I get your point - I'm just trying to understand the math - since the increase in yields has to at least equal (not to say: exceed) the costs and los
31 UPPERDECKFAN: It's once again what the markets dictate, if the loads are higher in the redeye they'll charge you more. At least in case of IB, where they offer a d
32 C010T3: Actually, I checked-in at the Four Points Chicago Downtown/Magnificent Mile at 7:30 AM just the other day. It's just a question of room availability.
33 PA101: Right - if they do have a room available, probably most hotels will accomodate you. However, if you want it guaranteed, you'll have to book an extra
34 LipeGIG: Sorry to disagree, but IMO it's more a matter of time zone. In all markets when it's possible to run a daylight and allow both flights to be in a Hub
35 C010T3: I know. All I was trying to do was to prove that it wasn't impossible.
36 UPPERDECKFAN: Sometimes is a bit difficult to explain yourself when not in your mother language, when I said multiple redeyes I was referring to multiple by differ
37 LipeGIG: I just agreed with you ! IMO, this flight use to be delayed from GRU many times, arrives late at MAD and them departs late back to GRU. With that, TA
38 JJ8080: Wouldn't be smarter for TAM to make all it's 332s with the same config, so all of them could be used on all 332's routes? I mean, even with some rout
39 LipeGIG: Yes, that's the idea they had, to put all planes as 4F 36/42C using the new seats, but they face several problems and complains on the new two A332 (
40 Hardiwv: This is false and has no technical base. For example, KL operates for years in GRU will small turnaround and has no problem whatsoever. The same appl
41 LipeGIG: I just pointed out that with a delayed arrival flight, it's impossible to TAM to reduce the delay as GRU is not good for such small turn-around on de
42 Hardiwv: Now your point is clarified. KLM turnaround is 2h and it is almost never delayed. TAM problems in GRU would occur in any other major airport in Brazi
43 UPPERDECKFAN: Are you kidding? according to HB-IWC log on KL long haul ops (posted on every KL related thread on a.net), most of KL flights are delayed 1 to 2 hrs
44 Hardiwv: This is not correct. Please analyse the data correctly as KL B772 and especially KL B77W show very little delays. KL encounters dispatch unreliabilit
45 UPPERDECKFAN: My apologies for stealing the thread, let's see spot data from the last 7 days of July per HB-IWC: Friday, July 25 KL791 AMS GRU B77W PH-BVA Flight d
46 LipeGIG: No problem, belong to all of us. And it shows one of the reasons (IMO) for TAM to introduce a second plane... they can't trust on routes that use a p
47 UPPERDECKFAN: Lipe, How does JJ bussines class product compare to IB's? I've never flown JJ so I was wondering if it's comparable.
48 Hardiwv: This was my point from the beginning, even with such a short turnaround time in GRU (only 2h) KL is very rarely late or delayed in GRU. GRU does not
49 C010T3: That only applies to daylight departures of international flights.
50 Hardiwv: It applies to any departure time whether am or pm. Rgs,
51 C010T3: Well, that's where the clock and I don't agree with you.
52 JJ8080: Yeah, as I posted in another threat, if you're not aware of aviation news, it's a surprise when you a by a JJ business or first class ticket.. You ca
53 C010T3: But the MD-11 experience is just so much more fun!
54 JJ8080: That would be a personal point, made by a aviation enthusiastic, and probably different from most F-class FFs... agree?
55 LipeGIG: The planes used for MAD nowadays are equipped with flat bed seats on Business Class. Very comfortable. I will post one picture of myself later on. I
56 JJ8080: Sure, the 332 is the most variable plane. But a layman in aviatian isues doesn't even know if the 345 is fixed on a certain route or not right? For t
58 UPPERDECKFAN: Wondering whether it's worthy for a carrier like JJ to offer 3-class service with such a small long haul network.
59 JJ8080: Well, actually, if I'm not forgetting any (please correct me in case), TAM's international network (excluding code-share) is the following: GRU-MIA G
60 LipeGIG: Just a few corrections. - There is no FOR-CDG service. - MAO-CCS is in fact GIG-GRU-MAO-CCS - Today they begin BSB-EZE - add GRU-ASU - add GRU-ASU-CO
61 JJ8080: I wrote it, tha last one on the list! Yeah I heard that when it's starts to run with 763 would lose the FOR-BEL-MAO leg, that's why I put this way. T
62 SJOtoLIR: PZ TAM Mercosur merged into JJ mainline. They are not using their F-100s anymore. Regards.
63 Hardiwv: As mentioned by Lipe, TAM network is not small. In addition, routes such as JFK, MIA, CDG, MXP, FRA, LHR all have a strong demand for F class. Just c
64 UPPERDECKFAN: OK guys, seems to me that once again I didn't explain myself properly, When I said TAM has a small long haul network, I use the word "long haul" inst
65 Hardiwv: I understand you point now. But the long-haul network of TAM from Brazil to North America and Europe commands a strong demand for F seats. TAM does N
66 JJ8080: In fact many airlines have reduced it's services to a 2-class, although, we have to keep in mind that, even with F-class tickets costings almost twic
67 LipeGIG: Now i agree with you, but we would say Brazil is an important base for multinatinationals and it's the HQ for big groups like Petrobras, Vale, Votora
68 Incitatus: That is valid point but I will contrast that with Delta at JFK. New York is probably the most important first class market in the world. Delta chose
69 Hardiwv: Not really, in fact TAM tickets are relatively much cheaper if compared to F ticket offered by BA, AF and LH. Usually the difference between advertis
70 UPPERDECKFAN: IMO, economics of F class with just 20% fare difference with C might be marginal. My point about IB, TP, LA, AR being "direct" competitors is that I
71 JJ8080: You right that intl. airlines have a bigger difference between C and F fares, almost 100%, and are a little more expansive than JJ's on F. Although,
72 LipeGIG: And i respect yours. My opinion was based on the fares. You may purchase GRU-CDG, GRU-MAD, GRU-MXP, GIG-CDG, GRU-LIS, GRU-AMS, GRU-MUC round-trips fo
73 Hardiwv: My base of comparison was the full fare C class, this is why I stated 20%. You cannot find these fares the other way around, ie Europe-Brazil. And mi
74 JJ8080: ok, got you. Of course, never pay (otherwise necessary) more than USD 3.000 on a C ticket on these routes. I used the website numbers in order us to
75 LipeGIG: This fare has no limits except it's IIRC 50% of the plane. I take it for a 3 days trip as well as a 13 days trip. If you want help, let me know, my t
76 Neo: Actually there is... every Friday. Rgs, Neo
77 LipeGIG: It's not FOR (Fortaleza) Neo, it's REC-CDG. Agree ?
79 LipeGIG: Impossible, the plane come from São Paulo !!!!! There is no A330 service at FOR except for some charter daylights to MIA during IATA summer! Tam Lin
80 JJ8080: I probably expressed myself wrongly... I didn't checked that there was a FOR-CDG flight with a stop in REC, I just wanted to tell Neo that probably w
81 LipeGIG: No problem, hope it clears the matter.
82 Hardiwv: But this is the case of TAM, right? KLM has a different policy. A discounted business fare has minimum stay, maximum stay, plus needs to be bought in
83 Neo: Yeah Lipe, totally.. I thought I read REC-CDG.......rsrsrs.
84 LipeGIG: Wow! I got your point. So i recommend you to fly to Brazil using FF miles and then, buy from Brazil a round-trip to Europe for US$ 2,990 ! It's almos
85 Hardiwv: 100% correct. European airlines sell their tickets in Brazil USD-based which will make them at least 30 to 50% less than in Europe. For example, the
86 LipeGIG: As i used to say, this come true since Sep/07 by the time the market realized Brazil-Europe market become well served. Of course based on the fact th
87 Hardiwv: This is not possible because AF/KL discounted business fares are valid for 1 month trip only. It means I would need to return in 30 days... Indeed, a
88 LipeGIG: Another advantage in favor of TAM, you may request reimbursement of the return flight, with no penalty. And you might buy another ticket... Correct,
Sponsor Message: 
From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11010 posts, 
From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6734 posts, 
From Costa Rica, joined Jul 2007, 3731 posts, 
From France, joined Dec 2003, 2031 posts, 
From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 475 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
