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TAM Starts MAD Red-Eye Daily  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2552 times:

As expected, starting 26 october 2008 TAM will change schedule of GRU-MAD-GRU daily A330 (one leg is currently operated daylight) and will now operate both legs red-eye daily A330 therefore attracting more business travellers. Here is the schedule:

TAM8064 GRU-MAD 20h30 11h25
TAM8065 MAD-GRU 20h50 05h20

TAM8065 currently departs MAD 13h20 arriving in GRU 19h30.

Rgs,

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2548 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
red-eye

Does the term red-eye only take reference to the dusk departure or also for dawn departures or maybe the combination of both?
Pls enlighten me  Smile


User currently offlineLuisde8cd From Pitcairn Islands, joined Aug 2004, 2537 posts, RR: 31
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2436 times:

Woah, does it make economic sense to have a A330 parked for almost 10hrs in MAD tarmac?

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2412 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Thread starter):
TAM8065 currently departs MAD 13h20 arriving in GRU 19h30.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but current schedule means 1 a/c rotation while new schedule means 2 /ac rotations, is it worthy instead of using the second aircraft to fly elsewhere?

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 1):
Does the term red-eye only take reference to the dusk departure or also for dawn departures or maybe the combination of both?

Red-eye is an american term used in civil aviation for flights that leave in the evening (local time) and land in the morning (local time). It's commonly used on routes that can also suit a daylight flight like US transcon, Europe-deep SouthAm, Japan-Oz, SouthAfrica-Europe, etc.

Also known as "overnight" flights.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2393 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 3):
Red-eye is an american term used in civil aviation for flights that leave in the evening (local time) and land in the morning (local time). It's commonly used on routes that can also suit a daylight flight like US transcon, Europe-deep SouthAm, Japan-Oz, SouthAfrica-Europe, etc.

Also known as "overnight" flights.

Thanks  Smile


User currently offlineAcelanzarote From Spain, joined Nov 2005, 814 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2379 times:

It does seem a waste to have the plane on the ground at MAD that long, does the
extra sales they are aiming at off set the cost, plus like another member
has pointed out it will now take two A330's to cover the service.....



from the Island with sun and great photo's.. Why not visit Lanzarote
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2375 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 3):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but current schedule means 1 a/c rotation while new schedule means 2 /ac rotations, is it worthy instead of using the second aircraft to fly elsewhere?



Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 2):
Woah, does it make economic sense to have a A330 parked for almost 10hrs in MAD tarmac?

It makes all economic anf financial sense and in fact if you look at GRU most airlines park their aircraft for hours and hours in order to allow for red-eye operations. Of the European airlines only KL and TP have daylight legs to GRU. European airlines with 2 daily flights (IB and AF) have one daily flight with red-eye both legs and one daily flight red-eye and daylight leg.

TAM will deploy 2 A330s which therefore means 2 red-eye legs which will certainly attrach premium passengers which demand red-eye flights and fill the busines cabin. Daylight flight kill yields.

Rgs,


User currently offlineSteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2324 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
Daylight flight kill yields.

Interesting though that Iberia's vast bank of flights to South America leave Madrid around midday Madrid time. That said, good move on TAM's part that will offer an real timing alternative to Iberia. TAM currently leaves Madrid about 45 minutes after Iberia's daily.



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2287 times:

I would also say that TAM needs transfer passengers on their MAD flight to other South American destinations. An an 19:30 arrival in GRU can not offer connections to EZE, SCL and the likes.

User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2272 times:



Quoting JoFMO (Reply 8):
I would also say that TAM needs transfer passengers on their MAD flight to other South American destinations. An an 19:30 arrival in GRU can not offer connections to EZE, SCL and the likes.

You got the main point here! TAM has a major connection bank leaving GRU in the morning connecting pax not only to its South American network, including ASU, MVD, EZE, SCL, VVI, AGP, but also most of the domestic connections leave in mid-morning.

Quoting Steve6666 (Reply 7):
Interesting though that Iberia's vast bank of flights to South America leave Madrid around midday Madrid time. That said, good move on TAM's part that will offer an real timing alternative to Iberia. TAM currently leaves Madrid about 45 minutes after Iberia's daily.

But you also have to note that IB only operates daylight flights to destination where there is not much competition or yields are not high. IB needs red-eye flights to more competitive high-yeilding markets such as GRU, GIG, MEX, CCS, EZE. Of course, then there are high priority markets which get more than one daily frequency such as EZE, GRU and MEX.

Rgs,


User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2269 times:

Same for MXP.

Checking JJ´s website for 14/11 departure from GRU and 21/11 return shows:

JJ8060 GRU-MXP 20:45-11:00
JJ8061 MXP-GRU 20:00-05:10


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2265 times:



Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 10):
Same for MXP.

Checking JJ´s website for 14/11 departure from GRU and 21/11 return shows:

JJ8060 GRU-MXP 20:45-11:00
JJ8061 MXP-GRU 20:00-05:10

Thanks for the schedule.

TAM was operating daylight legs to MAD and MXP just because of lack of aircraft. MXP will also see change of aircraft to A345 replacing the MD-11 since FRA will get the B77W therefore freeing the A345 duo for MXP red-eye scheduling. MXP and MAD are the types of destinations where red-eye legs are extremely important due to the substantive premium traffic involved.

Rgs,


User currently offlineUPPERDECKFAN From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 992 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2146 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
But you also have to note that IB only operates daylight flights to destination where there is not much competition or yields are not high.

Daylight vs. redeye westbound trasatlantic flights are not a matter of yields or competition, there are several other factors in there, specially time differentials and flying times, let's see:

Destinations in deep South America like EZE, SCL, GRU, GIG, MVD are the only ones that can be flown redeye from most of Europe because they combine a long flying time (10+hrs) and a small time differential (4-5 hrs) so departures and arrivals can be timed conveniently at both ends (dep: 2000-2300 / arr: 0500-0800).

MAD is an exception between europe's largest airports since it doesn't have curfew, that's allow them to depart much later (0100 and 0230) and to be the only point in Europe from where there is a redeye to MEX.

To offer redeyes from MAD to places like CCS, BOG, GYE, SDQ, LIM it would have to depart after 0300 to get there in between 0500 and 0700 and the most important thing to consider is that redeyes westbound means 2 aircraft rotation so fleet utilization takes a huge blow. That's why redeyes are offered only where yields are high and competition is fierce

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
IB needs red-eye flights to more competitive high-yeilding markets such as GRU, GIG, MEX, CCS, EZE. Of course, then there are high priority markets which get more than one daily frequency such as EZE, GRU and MEX.

They do offer redeyes to GRU, EZE, SCL, MVD and MEX.



744,742,741,772,773,762,732,735,738,752,727,717,DC10,DC9,M82,M87,319,320,321,343,346,L1011,CRJ2,CRJ9,E190,ATR42,DSH8,
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2095 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
It makes all economic anf financial sense and in fact if you look at GRU most airlines park their aircraft for hours and hours in order to allow for red-eye operations.Of the European airlines only KL and TP have daylight legs to GRU

Red-eyes also cost the airline a lot more. Twice as many aircraft to begin with, and more crew.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 12):
Daylight vs. redeye westbound trasatlantic flights are not a matter of yields or competition, there are several other factors in there, specially time differentials and flying times, let's see:

Exactly. One factor is fleet-wide utilization. LH and AF may let their aircraft sit for 10 hours at GRU but fleet-wide it may not have a significant impact on utilization because they have very large fleets and fly to all corners of the World. TP is a small carrier by comparison. Then you have the issue of connections. Red-eyes offer better connections but, TP doesn't need so many connections in Brazil because they already serve a bunch of markets there non-stop. I suspect there are many other factors.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2000 times:



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 12):
Daylight vs. redeye westbound trasatlantic flights are not a matter of yields or competition, there are several other factors in there, specially time differentials and flying times, let's see:

You are right but one of the main factor for TAM to switch to red-eye was to attract premium passengers and higher yields, plus the issue about arriving early in GRU which 1) guarantees a full business day and 2) allow for onwards connections from GRU to other South American markets and more importantly domestically in Brazil.

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 12):
They do offer redeyes to GRU, EZE, SCL, MVD and MEX.

You are confirming my previous statement.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
Red-eyes also cost the airline a lot more. Twice as many aircraft to begin with, and more crew.

But you will certainly attract more passengers and higher yields which more than compensates for the extra cost.

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
TP is a small carrier by comparison. Then you have the issue of connections. Red-eyes offer better connections but, TP doesn't need so many connections in Brazil because they already serve a bunch of markets there non-stop. I suspect there are many other factors.

Your explanation about TAP is well taken and TP is a specific case being a smaller airline and serving a multitude of destinations in Brazil.

Rgs,


User currently offlineSteve6666 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1869 times:



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 9):
IB needs red-eye flights to more competitive high-yeilding markets such as GRU, GIG



Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 12):
They do offer redeyes to GRU, EZE, SCL, MVD and MEX.

I'm going to play devil's advocate, and note that the daily GRU flight is daytime (the red-eye is 4 times per week, 2 frequencies of which are Saturday morning and Sunday morning). The twice weekly GIG direct is also daytime.

Anyway, this is going off topic. More to the point, I am stunned by the growth of TAM - I rememberthem from 5/6 years ago principally for sharing the Ponte Aerea from Congonhas to Santos Dumont with Varig. Since then they appear to have grown at a stunningly fast rate adding routes and any available widebodies. Who is putting the money up? What other destinations are in their plans? And are they looking medium term to rationalise the long haul fleet?

Very nice airline, fantastic service, good lounges in GRU, modern, clean fleet, very professional cabin crew and pilots - not too many Captains greet you by the door.



eu nasci ha dez mil anos atras, e nao tem nada nesse mundo que eu nao saiba demais
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1810 times:



Quoting Steve6666 (Reply 15):
daily GRU flight is daytime (the red-eye is 4 times per week, 2 frequencies of which are Saturday morning and Sunday morning).

Check your information. IB operates twice daily flights to GRU.

Quoting Steve6666 (Reply 15):
Very nice airline, fantastic service, good lounges in GRU, modern, clean fleet, very professional cabin crew and pilots - not too many Captains greet you by the door.

Although TAM still needs to improve its ground service, especially check-in, ticket office, etc.

Rgs,


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