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CO Returns Freq For S. Am.; Asks To Reduce China  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

CO filed with the DOT to return its 7 frequencies supporting IAH-GYE and its 7 frequencies supporting IAH-CLO.

CO also filed to request that 2 of its frequencies on each of its coming EWR-PVG as well as its existing EWR-PEK be converted to seasonal frequencies so that CO can operate 5 days/week to each destination during off-peak periods.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6047 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6278 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
CO also filed to request that 2 of its frequencies on each of its coming EWR-PVG as well as its existing EWR-PEK be converted to seasonal frequencies so that CO can operate 5 days/week to each destination during off-peak periods.

Guess China is not such a goldmine after all...especially since they take penalties on the 777 (I think!)


Returning the S.America frequencies was the right thing to do....



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6139 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
CO also filed to request that 2 of its frequencies on each of its coming EWR-PVG as well as its existing EWR-PEK be converted to seasonal frequencies so that CO can operate 5 days/week to each destination during off-peak periods.

Can't wait to see what all the DL haters say about CO doing the same thing as DL did. It seems to me that China's market is growing fast but not fast enough to sustain the amounts of flights between the US and China.

Jeremy


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6111 times:



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):
Can't wait to see what all the DL haters say about CO doing the same thing as DL did.

we could dredge up their posts saying the same thing... and arguing that at least CO and other US carriers weren't asking this for their existing flights. OOPS.!

So, is NK interested in Ecuador?


User currently offlineDutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6013 times:



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):
Can't wait to see what all the DL haters say about CO doing the same thing as DL did. It seems to me that China's market is growing fast but not fast enough to sustain the amounts of flights between the US and China.

There is no reason to make this about what Delta did as well. Every airline needs to look at the cost of operating a flight, and if they decide that it makes more sence to fly a route 5 times a week instead of 7, that is a good business decission.
Personally I can't wait for the longer layovers, instead of our usual 3 day trip  bouncy 


User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32609 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5938 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
So, is NK interested in Ecuador?

Ecuador-USA frequencies operate with Miami-designated frequencies and non-Miami designated frequencies. I'm not sure if Fort Lauderdale counts as "Miami."



a.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5901 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 5):
Ecuador-USA frequencies operate with Miami-designated frequencies and non-Miami designated frequencies.

True. However, Aerogal will return to South Florida in the future; and there is talk of them using either MIA and or FLL.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5882 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
CO also filed to request that 2 of its frequencies on each of its coming EWR-PVG as well as its existing EWR-PEK be converted to seasonal frequencies so that CO can operate 5 days/week to each destination during off-peak periods.

Could also be indicative of CO's wide body shortage, they could be looking at launching a new long haul in 2009 (in addition to EWR-PVG) with the deliveries of two additional 777-200ERs.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently onlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32609 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5866 times:



Quoting SCL767 (Reply 6):
True. However, Aerogal will return to South Florida in the future; and there is talk of them using either MIA and or FLL.

They will use MIA. Absolutley no plans for Aerogal to fly to FLL.

They use Ecuador carrier frequencies; of which there are plenty available. The frequencies that CO uses are only for U.S. carriers.



a.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8752 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5822 times:
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Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
They will use MIA.

Of course this is a given. However, the person I was speaking to in UIO was reluctant to give me more information, (e.g. what EQP they will use, etc.)

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
They use Ecuador carrier frequencies; of which there are plenty available

Yep, XL is looking at adding extra flights in the future.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
The frequencies that CO uses are only for U.S. carriers.

I really don't want to see NK at Mariscal Sucre.


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5771 times:



Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):
Can't wait to see what all the DL haters say about CO doing the same thing as DL did. It seems to me that China's market is growing fast but not fast enough to sustain the amounts of flights between the US and China.

I've been classified as a DL hater before (even though I'm not), but my opinion is the same as before. If other carriers want these frequencies, they should get them before CO is allowed to cut capacity. China is still a limited-entry market and others should have a shot if CO, DL, US, or anyone else can't fully use their frequencies.

OTOH, no one will apply in the current market so CO is probably off the hook.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5742 times:

It may also have to do with the increased scrutiny over visas for China and how they are denying so many travelers, some who've had no trouble in the past.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5640 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
It may also have to do with the increased scrutiny over visas for China and how they are denying so many travelers, some who've had no trouble in the past.

I can't honestly seeing that being the reason though.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

Does anyone have an explanation for the reduction of services to China by many carriers to what someone described as a "goldmine" ? We are all aware of fuel costs playing havoc with many airlines,yet it seems services to China may be taking a bit of a disproportionate amount of cuts by many carriers,not just USA based.

User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21474 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5492 times:



Quoting AirNZ (Reply 12):
I can't honestly seeing that being the reason though.

THE one and only reason? No.

A contributing factor? Considering that hotels are reporting decreased bookings in China due to this factor, not sure how you can dismiss it out of hand, no matter how much you want to…

I couldn't found the NYT article, but found a blog commenting on it.

http://jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup...oming-and-rooms-are-available.html

Hotel bookings down 15-20% means fewer visitors. One can assume that this reduction is disproportionately foreign visitors to these hotels, visitors who require visas and who's economies may be flagging. Cutting flights by 2/7th would compensate for this lack of demand at this time…



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 5437 times:



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
They use Ecuador carrier frequencies; of which there are plenty available. The frequencies that CO uses are only for U.S. carriers.

and the rules for how US and foreign frequencies are different based on the bilateral....

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
Could also be indicative of CO's wide body shortage, they could be looking at launching a new long haul in 2009 (in addition to EWR-PVG) with the deliveries of two additional 777-200ERs.

someone stated that it would have been against DOT procedures for DL to have cut its ATLPVG service in order to start ATLKWI. I don't know but if it was wrong for DL it would have been wrong for CO as well.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 10):
OTOH, no one will apply in the current market so CO is probably off the hook.

which is percisely why DL did the same thing. off-peak frequencies are not of value to anyone. The only question is who else will ask to reduce their China frequencies.

The slumping in Chinese travel has been well documented by carriers from both the US and China.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5370 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
A contributing factor? Considering that hotels are reporting decreased bookings in China due to this factor, not sure how you can dismiss it out of hand, no matter how much you want to…

What are you on about? I dismissed nothing out of hand, and what do you mean by "no matter how much you want to"......I care nothing for CO; it matters nothing to me, so I'll kindly ask you to knock your snottiness off as it's completely unnecessary. You made a post, I stated that I didn't think that would be the reason, so is there a difficulty in understanding that?
My reply was directed at, to my knowledge, airlines do not soley base routes on everyone obtaining an entry Visa for any country. If it could be a factor in this circumstance, that's perfectly fine. However, and if I may point out.......in your original post you made no mention whatever of a possible background to it, and I replied according. Once again, as is rather usual, you are enlarging on a post only upon being challenged on it. Why don't you simply state what you mean, instead of conveniently giving yourself the opportunity to change it depending on how you are answered?


User currently offlineLegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2054 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5357 times:



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
THE one and only reason? No.

A contributing factor? Considering that hotels are reporting decreased bookings in China due to this factor, not sure how you can dismiss it out of hand, no matter how much you want to…

I couldn't found the NYT article, but found a blog commenting on it.

http://jeffmatthewsisnotmakingthisup...oming-and-rooms-are-available.html

Hotel bookings down 15-20% means fewer visitors. One can assume that this reduction is disproportionately foreign visitors to these hotels, visitors who require visas and who's economies may be flagging. Cutting flights by 2/7th would compensate for this lack of demand at this time…

One reason only: The Olympics. China is not giving out as many visas as in the past because they are concerned about the "undesierables" entering their Country to disrupt the Olympics. Come October, things will go back to normal and visas will once be avaiable to the average person.

I am heading over to Beijing tomorrow from SFO. Do I want to go and deal with the increase security and influx of people? Heck No! However, my wife said I need to go for our quaterley meeting  Wink



John@SFO
User currently offlineJetlanta From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 3251 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5171 times:



Quoting RwSEA (Reply 10):
OTOH, no one will apply in the current market so CO is probably off the hook.

Which was exactly our point when the inanity erupted after DL made its similar request. A.netters were up in arms!

However, many of us knew, just as Delta did, that no one else wanted the frequencies. So no friggin big deal.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7502 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Ill say the same thing about CO that I did about DL with this situation. This really isnt a big deal whatsoever. Maybe the East-Coast-China Market (or the China Market as a whole) isnt as lucrative as it once was.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 15):
someone stated that it would have been against DOT procedures for DL to have cut its ATLPVG service in order to start ATLKWI. I don't know but if it was wrong for DL it would have been wrong for CO as well.

I dont think that was the reason for DL or CO making the decisions they did reguarding the China routes. I think the more logical explination was that the routes were expensive to operate and revenue isnt as good as they thought it would be in these economic times. I didnt think DL should be denied and I dont think CO should be either.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 2):
an't wait to see what all the DL haters say about CO doing the same thing as DL did.



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 3):
we could dredge up their posts saying the same thing... and arguing that at least CO and other US carriers weren't asking this for their existing flights. OOPS.!



Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 18):
Which was exactly our point when the inanity erupted after DL made its similar request. A.netters were up in arms!

There's a difference though, Deltoids were boasting to anyone who would listen the "record cargo" they were handling. Only to be followed up by a request to reduce frequencies.

From an April 2008 thread:

Quote:
Delta Ships 1 Mil In Cargo Frm Shanghai 1st 2weeks

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...aviation/read.main/3932778/#menu26

If you read any thread regarding CO's China route performance you will see it was never regarded as a stellar performer from the start, and no CO fan made it out to be thus a request to reduce off season frequencies is not unexpected. Now go back and read the threads regarding DL's ATL-PVG (including the link I provided) and everyone is boasting how it's such a strong performer, yet just like CO they requested to reduce off season frequencies.

CO folks were consistent in their honesty of the route's performers, where again the Deltoids pumped up something just for the sake of making it look better than it was.

[Edited 2008-07-31 18:31:08]


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5058 times:



Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
There's a difference though, Deltoids were boasting to anyone who would listen the "record cargo" they were handling.

and I for one have repeatedly said that cargo revenues on a passenger airline flight cannot alone make a flight profitable.

no, there really is no difference. DL saw that the route wasn't viable. People here tried to ridicule DL for its decision to ask for seasonal reductions. CO is doing the same thing for the same reason. If anything, CO's position is even more ridiculous because it has already operated the PEK flight for a winter season. It now decides the flight is not sustainable 7 days a week but it continued to argue for 7 days a week to PVG until the route was awarded and DL gave it the out that it knew it needed in the first place. DL hasn't ever operated to China during the winter; CO has yet still insisted it needed 7 flts/week to PVG only to subsequently ask for a reduction in frequencies NOT ONLY for its new PVG flight BUT ALSO for its existing PEK flight.


Once again, you are trying to trash DL but you cannot come up with defensible logic or facts to win an argument.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5022 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 21):
and I for one have repeatedly said that cargo revenues on a passenger airline flight cannot alone make a flight profitable.

When reading through the thread I linked I did take notice of your restraint in endorsing the route as boisterously as the others.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24853 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5014 times:



Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 1):
Guess China is not such a goldmine after all...

Sadly, China has been a weak market with a surprising decline in traffic since last winter.

It seems many things are at play, from bad press about the Tibet crackdowns, the earthquake, difficulty in obtaining visa's for tourist and business men alike, to US government warning about peoples phones/computers being hacked by the government, plus what was perceived to be a sold out period around the Olympics which instead now turns out that many hotels have record low occupancy rates, not to mention the increased capacity coming on line in the market at this time US-China.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (5 years 12 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

CO has stated Delhi and Mumbai have been very strong performers from the start, Beijing has lagged.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 Jetlanta : Exactly which "Deltoids" are you talking about? Certainly not the usual suspects. The original poster of the thread you mentioned had less than 50 po
26 WorldTraveler : you obviously don't have access to CO route level financials or you couldn't be saying that. It is well known that every carrier flying NYC-India is
27 MasseyBrown : You can add the appreciation of the yuan and the recent increases in ocean and air freight rates to the causes for trade falling short of last year's
28 STT757 : Wow, CO does not make money on their domestic routes, they don't make money to India either?.. You would think they were the carrier just two years re
29 Jetlanta : Is WT wrong? Seriously. Do you have any intimate knowledge of this particular route? This was the point I was making earlier. Rather than address the
30 MaverickM11 : On a related note, DL pulled one weekly frequency in the Fall from BOMJFK--September and November I believe.[Edited 2008-07-31 21:10:23]
31 OA412 : Like WT said above, that's not really surprising given all the capacity that's been dumped into the NYC-India market.[Edited 2008-07-31 21:23:12]
32 Style : You really need to get over yourself and your obsession with DL being superior to CO. You are so bias to the whole CO/DL topic that it really takes a
33 STT757 : Yes, go back and read what I wrote.
34 Jetlanta : You phrased it as a rhetorical question, then added a snarky comment. Hard to take it seriously. Sorry.
35 STT757 : Gotta Love folks who deflect, especially for other people. Honestly what do you think WT's intentions in starting a CO thread, you don't see anyone p
36 FFlyer : I hear that e.g. Finnair says that it's especially the number of Chinese people traveling abroad, which has gone down quickly. That airline has placed
37 Jetlanta : Hey, I'm not here to defend WT. I'm just saying you can't complain about him one minute, then effectively engage in the same behavior yourself the ne
38 Sydscott : Why is this surprising to anyone? DL is merging with NW which will give it access to essentially a hub operation at NRT with 3 daily China flights. I
39 OA412 : How can you lump all delta fans into the same category? Just because one threatened you some years ago doesn't mean we all a bunch of insane extremis
40 MCOAviationFan : The original post was pretty bland with no opinion at all. WT just posted the below: Granted, WT has been very exuberant is his defense of DL, but th
41 WorldTraveler : Actually, no. US carriers cannot codeshare on other US carriers to/from China. If CO or any other carrier cuts its own flights, it is essentially not
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