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MSP Leader Wants Facts On DL Plans For Minnesota  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3090 posts, RR: 10
Posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7737 times:

I believe all A-Net members are familiar with the fact that there has been an agreement between Northwest and the State of Minnesota on specific issues. There is the big bond debt to the tune of about $230 Million dollars. Employment levels is also an ingredient here among others. I guess the folks in Minnesota are just looking for answers and don't want to be left dangling in the wind. They are even "scouting" for other carriers that could use MSP.

I am sure even before reading the article posted below that a renegotiation on this entire matter will occur. Some sort of settlement that both sides can live with. Doug Steenland says that debt can be paid off after the airlines are merged.

Give it a read and give us your take......................


Courtesy: Minneapolis Star-Tribune

Airport Leader Wants Facts On Delta Plans For Minnesota

http://www.startribune.com/business/..._refer=Business:highlightModules:5

135 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7481 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7713 times:

I kept saying DL wasnt going to be able to just take everything and walk away.

I doubt they will end up paying the entire $230 million. And if they do, they might be allowed to make little payments. The folks in MN arent bulls**ting.

Also its Ill go on the record as saying that you cant really believe anything that DL management says about the issue. Just like a politician saying whatever they have to get elected, DL management will say anything and make any promise to push this through. Any airline in DL's spot would do the same.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7582 times:



Quote:
Also its Ill go on the record as saying that you cant really believe anything that DL management says about the issue. Just like a politician saying whatever they have to get elected, DL management will say anything and make any promise to push this through. Any airline in DL's spot would do the same.

Agreed on all points; however, I think Delta realizes that MSP is an important and profitable hub for any airline, and the Twin Cities are not economically in the same position as Cincinnati or Memphis. If there were a line on this in Vegas, I would lay money down that Delta will keep SLC, MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK as their primary hubs, with the requisite "Focus City at LAX", with CVG and MEM reduced to either focus city or standard service city.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineGEG2RAP From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 848 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

I guess ATL hq is worth 230million.
I still own a stupid house in MN and the news for MN just keeps getting worse and worse.
Hope they keep a hub there......


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11389 posts, RR: 62
Reply 4, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7511 times:

I don't know what the State of Minnesota is so worried about.

Delta isn't going to get rid of the Minneapolis hub anytime soon - Cincinnati and Memphis, yes, but Minneapolis? No way.

Minneapolis is fundamentally a strong hub and, economically, the region is doing far better than most other places along its latitude in the United States.

Now, what will almost certainly happen is that most of Northwest's headquarters/administrative jobs will disappear or shift to Atlanta. That is, in my mind, just a matter of time.

This whole political B.S. about keeping "executive offices" in Atlanta, Minneapolis, New York, Paris, etc. is just that - it's about as believable as the "New Delta" assuring that they won't close any hubs.

There is absolutely no reason to keep any "executive offices" in Minneapolis beyond maybe a few cubicals in an office building somewhere, but even that I don't really see as justifiable. It's just so much more efficient to consolidate everything at the mother ship, in Atlanta.

Minneapolis will cease to exist as the headquarters, or "executive office" of a major U.S. airline, but it is in absolutely no danger of losing its status as a major U.S. airline hub.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7435 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
There is absolutely no reason to keep any "executive offices" in Minneapolis beyond maybe a few cubicals in an office building somewhere, but even that I don't really see as justifiable.

Why should DL not have executive offices in multiple locations? Other multinational companies do it. An executive office would constitute a VP or higher position and it is highly likely DL will have a VP or higher position in MSP; they have similar positions in other DL hubs outside of ATL.

DL never expected to walk away from the obligation to MSP. But remember this is negotiation. DL can't say what its plans are because it hasn't even seen NW's route specific profitbility info - that's not possible at this point in the process. DL can and will tell MN and MSO what it will do when MN is willing to negotiate and DL has the facts on the table. For now, DL has made it clear the NW HDQ will be leaving but a large hub will remain.

DL can add or remove jobs in addition to or less than those areas based on what NW is willing to offer. If DL needs to pay off the money, they will but that is really not in either party's best interst. If NW wants more than a hub for MN jobs, they will offer DL a reasonable deal to renegotiate the obligation.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7481 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7383 times:



Quoting GEG2RAP (Reply 3):
Hope they keep a hub there......

They would be foolish to close it or even downsize it. DL knows the value of MSP and wont do anything to it.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
DL never expected to walk away from the obligation to MSP. But remember this is negotiation. DL can't say what its plans are because it hasn't even seen NW's route specific profitbility info - that's not possible at this point in the process. DL can and will tell MN and MSO what it will do when MN is willing to negotiate and DL has the facts on the table. For now, DL has made it clear the NW HDQ will be leaving but a large hub will remain.

And that about sums it up. This is a negotiaion and just like a poker game, neither side wants to reveal too much of their hand right now.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineBomber996 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7374 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
I don't know what the State of Minnesota is so worried about.



Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
There is absolutely no reason to keep any "executive offices" in Minneapolis beyond maybe a few cubicals in an office building somewhere, but even that I don't really see as justifiable. It's just so much more efficient to consolidate everything at the mother ship, in Atlanta.

This is exactly what they're worried about. My Girlfriend's father is a Dispatcher for NW in Eagan. When this merger goes through they're going to have to move from Minneapolis to Atlanta, something they're scared of. They've lived in MN all their lives. And there are many other families in the area around Eagan who are facing the same dilemma. with the export of these jobs and citizens the towns in the area are facing big problems. This is what they're scared of.

Peace  box 



AVIATION - A Vacation In Any Town, I Own Nothing
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11389 posts, RR: 62
Reply 8, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 7295 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Why should DL not have executive offices in multiple locations?

Because it's a waste of time and money. Delta, like virtually every other major corporation in America, requires but one executive office, and in the case of Delta, I think we all know that place is not Minneapolis.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Other multinational companies do it.

Well that's good for multinational companies.

But what's that got to do with Delta, which isn't now nor will it be in the future a "multinational company."

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
An executive office would constitute a VP or higher position and it is highly likely DL will have a VP or higher position in MSP; they have similar positions in other DL hubs outside of ATL.

If we're talking about having the GM of a hub be a VP, and that somehow constituting an "executive office," than that is totally reasonable. Many airlines elevate hub GMs to VPs - but no other airline that I'm aware of calls those stations' offices "executive offices." That's just comical.

To me, an executive office implies some sort of senior executive leadership. That is the way that 99.9% of corporations on earth define it: where the CEO (and perhaps other senior leadership) sits is where the "executive office" is located. Now, sometimes that means multiple cities. In the case of Delta, it won't: Delta's Chairman, CEO, and all of its senior leadership will be in Atlanta, and nowhere else, which is why this bullsh*t about saying they'll have "executive offices" in Minneapolis, New York, Paris, etc. is so comical.

Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 7):
This is exactly what they're worried about. My Girlfriend's father is a Dispatcher for NW in Eagan. When this merger goes through they're going to have to move from Minneapolis to Atlanta, something they're scared of. They've lived in MN all their lives. And there are many other families in the area around Eagan who are facing the same dilemma. with the export of these jobs and citizens the towns in the area are facing big problems. This is what they're scared of.

I completely understand that. That is very fair and reasonable. However, that being said, in today's rapidly globalizing world, and especially with more and more business being done in places like the south, moving is part of life for many. Doesn't make it any easier, though, of course.

That being said, though, I would venture a guess that at least 2/3 of Northwest's employees in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area are tied to the hub at MSP, not the headquarters in Eagan. The vast majority of Northwest jobs in the area are totally safe.


User currently offlineTXKF2010 From Bermuda, joined Nov 2005, 206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6793 times:



Quoting KarlB737 (Thread starter):
They are even "scouting" for other carriers that could use MSP

Does anyone smell WN or B6 on this one? Dare I say at MEM and CVG too?

And as for focus cities, are they ever gonna "rebound" Boston as a real focus city? They did just have that new terminal built....



...Rastafari Stands Alone...
User currently offlineNwAflyer07 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6747 times:

I'm sure DL will keep the MSP hub open. As far as all the training and corperate departments up there, a lot will probably end up being moved to ATL. Cincinatti will probably be eliminated and most overflow traffic will be filtered through DTW. However, theres a one word answer as to why DL can't afford to close Memphis:

Southwest.

just my 2cents


User currently offlineNwaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

For starts I am a taxpayer of MN.

DL/NW should payback the state of MN minute the merger is approved. I would love nothing more than to see Richard Anderson swallow hard. Everyone says 230M is nothing. Please. Lets not also forget about the sweet gate leases NW has with the MAC. Pull those back as well.

I can see these people burning the money like no tomorrow. Lets paint planes, advertising, moving employees, close hubs (move the assests to where?), transfer logistics (move planes from one city to another).

All I see here is failure.

Richard Anderson in my opinion is a smart idoit (I know that doesnt make sense but pay attention) When things started to go south at NW he went to United Health. To avoid the pressure at United Health he dissapeared and went to Delta. This guy is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Everyone hates Steenland but at least he had the balls to stand up and put his name on the line.

If the elected officials of MN push it they will get the money and commitments from Richard. If not, offer them to AA. MSP is a fortress unlike no other. MN is in the drivers seat here. DL would be stupid to give it up and AA or a US would take it in a minute.

Call the bluff. These people "in the spirit of thing" are idiots.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6708 times:

I wonder if DL will keep MSP for the training facility. That is where the 787 and A330 sims are. Eventually some DL pilots will be flying those I believe.

I think there are more reasons for keeping MSP than getting rid of it. As people say, get rid of CVG and MEM. Using MSP and DTW have their advantages. Both have great facilities and MSP has the local Fortune 500 business.

So maybe in the post merger MSP, there are no "Top Executives" but there is a major facility dedicated to training, engineering and development. Gotta tap that highly educated population in the Twin Cities.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6696 times:



Quoting Commavia (Reply 8):
To me, an executive office implies some sort of senior executive leadership.



Quoting Nwaflyer (Reply 11):
If the elected officials of MN push it they will get the money and commitments from Richard.

your bias is not too obvious... but let's pretend you really want the check in your pocket as a taxpayer now - just like Obama is saying he will do with corporate oil profits.

MN doesn't really want to have the debt repaid. In an era of shrinking capacity and airline failures, what MN really wants and needs for the highest concentration of fortune 500 companies per capita is good international air service. Any company can bring jobs to MN. Any airline can bring air service to MN; BNA has plenty of domestic air service but still no int'l air service post AA hub. But only a global airline will provide the international exposure that DL can provide.

Ohio and Kentucky officials realize the same thing about CVG.

The biggest bargaining chip DL has is to add international service to MSP, which is highly possible with DL's 767s and the coming 787s which are ideal for connecting MSP to the world more than NW has done. NW's hubs have lots of service to a handful of cities. DL can and will provide (providing the incentives are right) a moderate amount of service to far more cities. MN officials don't really care about the 3rd and 4th flight to AMS. They would far rather have 1 flt/day to AMS and an additional flight to 2 or 3 more cities.

DL is in an ideal position to negotiate w/ MN and MSP. DL has and can give MN what they want. It's not about jobs..it's about global air service.

DL will provide it and the incentives will continue and may even become richer for DL.


User currently offlineAf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2653 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6676 times:



Quoting TXKF2010 (Reply 9):

WN isn't interested in starting service to MSP, but maybe B6.



It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineNwaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6665 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
your bias is not too obvious... but let's pretend you really want the check in your pocket as a taxpayer now - just like Obama is saying he will do with corporate oil profits.

MN doesn't really want to have the debt repaid. In an era of shrinking capacity and airline failures, what MN really wants and needs for the highest concentration of fortune 500 companies per capita is good international air service. Any company can bring jobs to MN. Any airline can bring air service to MN; BNA has plenty of domestic air service but still no int'l air service post AA hub. But only a global airline will provide the international exposure that DL can provide.

Ohio and Kentucky officials realize the same thing about CVG.

The biggest bargaining chip DL has is to add international service to MSP, which is highly possible with DL's 767s and the coming 787s which are ideal for connecting MSP to the world more than NW has done. NW's hubs have lots of service to a handful of cities. DL can and will provide (providing the incentives are right) a moderate amount of service to far more cities. MN officials don't really care about the 3rd and 4th flight to AMS. They would far rather have 1 flt/day to AMS and an additional flight to 2 or 3 more cities.

DL is in an ideal position to negotiate w/ MN and MSP. DL has and can give MN what they want. It's not about jobs..it's about global air service.

DL will provide it and the incentives will continue and may even become richer for DL.

You do not know my party or affilitation. I am all for free markets which is exactly why the new DL should pay up immediately. If you want a free market quit having the feds prop you up. The 230M is my cash not DL's. If DL is so great they can do it without the taxpayer money.

MSP is in a position to negotiate with DL, not the other way around. It is a complete fortress. So DL, give it up. And also the 230.

Lets see how this all plays out. I am sure DL will be begging.


User currently offlineItalianFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1099 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6640 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
wonder if DL will keep MSP for the training facility. That is where the 787 and A330 sims are. Eventually some DL pilots will be flying those I believe.

Oh yea, NATCO prints money....its not going anywhere.


User currently offlineStratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6608 times:



Quoting Bomber996 (Reply 7):
This is exactly what they're worried about. My Girlfriend's father is a Dispatcher for NW in Eagan. When this merger goes through they're going to have to move from Minneapolis to Atlanta, something they're scared of. They've lived in MN all their lives. And there are many other families in the area around Eagan who are facing the same dilemma. with the export of these jobs and citizens the towns in the area are facing big problems. This is what they're scared of.

Well I feel their pain. They are lucky to have been able to work in this industry and not have to move. I had to move plenty as a mechanic when nw would cut jobs force you to bump someone at another station and then put the same damn job right back again. Well thankfully I don't have to put up with nw's crap anymore. It sucks to move but it is cheaper to live in ATL and the winters are not as harsh.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineScouse From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 77 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6581 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
MN officials don't really care about the 3rd and 4th flight to AMS. They would far rather have 1 flt/day to AMS and an additional flight to 2 or 3 more cities.

As a regular transatlantic NW traveller I really do care about the 3rd flight to AMS. This year I have visited 7 cities in Europe all connected through the ideal airport Schiphol. If DL decide to reduce the flights to AMS and introduce more cities they would more than likely not be the ones I go to. From AMS I can connect to almost everywhere in Europe, MSP could not do that.
Having the choice of the 3.20pm, 7.35 or the 9.15 is perfect for me.
Every time I have flown there has been at least 90% full during winter and always full during summer so why change a good deal for the airline.



Love to fly
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6464 times:



Quoting Scouse (Reply 18):
As a regular transatlantic NW traveller I really do care about the 3rd flight to AMS.

what is good for you as a passenger is not necessarily what is good for the airline or the city/state.

You will not quit flying NW/DL or going through AMS if DL uses 767s or reduces the number of flights from three to two assuming DL has comparable onboard service - and depending on which 767s you are talking about DL's onboard service is as good or better than NW's 330; on others DL is working on upgrading the service (true lie flats, AVOD throughout). The flights will still connect very well with KLMs system but DL might well be able to make CDG work just as well which would increase connectivity to Europe.

To MN/MSP, they can tout their economic ties to another city/country far more by having an additional flight or two to more cities than by having multiple flights to the same city. The economic benefits of the first flight between two cities is significant; the benefits of each additional flight on the same route diminish and will almost always be less than the benefits of a new flight to a new city.

It is entirely possible that the reason why NW dropped MSPCDG is so that DL can tell MN it will restart the route, getting the credit against the payments NW/DL owes MN/MSP. Further, MSP probably would have received new service to Asia aboard the 787s but DL can now use the merger to negotiate with MSP over the debt in return for the new service with the 787s that NW was probably going to start anyway.

It's business and it's all about timing and what can be both get out of this deal.

DL is very likely going to be able to craft a deal and get it approved that will enhance its position in MN at the current benefits NW is getting.


User currently offlineNwaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6432 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
DL is very likely going to be able to craft a deal and get it approved that will enhance its position in MN at the current benefits NW is getting.

Dont count on it. Many people in the state of MN are tired of NW and the broken promises. What makes you think DL will be any different. You forgive the payment and we will do this for the state. They are all hollow promises and when times get difficult DL will justify the downsizing of MSP and they still have the taxpayers money.

If it is a great idea to start new routes from MSP then DL can do it on their own.


User currently offlineGsosbee From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 825 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6418 times:



Quoting Centrair (Reply 12):
I wonder if DL will keep MSP for the training facility. That is where the 787 and A330 sims are. Eventually some DL pilots will be flying those I believe.

Eventually there will only be Delta pilots.  Smile


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7481 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6362 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
DL is in an ideal position to negotiate w/ MN and MSP. DL has and can give MN what they want. It's not about jobs..it's about global air service.

I personally disagree.

I think MSP and the State of MN has the upper hand, heres why I think so.

MSP is a profitable hub, its a good hub, its a solid hub. DL knows this and the state of MN knows this as well. Given that MN could demand the full payment in one lump sum without fear of retribution. If DL decided to downsize, cut, etc. MSP because of this, they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. It would take a squadron of morons to downsize MSP just because they had to honor an agreement NW made.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6303 times:



Quoting Nwaflyer (Reply 20):
You forgive the payment and we will do this for the state



Quoting Nwaflyer (Reply 20):
If it is a great idea to start new routes from MSP then DL can do it on their own.



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 22):
It would take a squadron of morons to downsize MSP just because they had to honor an agreement NW made.

you all miss the fact that the industry is in a downsizing mode right now. If MN pushes the issue and refuses to work w/ DL, DL could easily transfer capacity to SLC or CVG hubs where there is a fear of further reduction and where there are no cost constraints keeping DL from adding or removing service - or DTW which seems to be fairly immune to whatever is going on in the DL/NW scope. The economics of adding or subtracting flights from CVG or SLC dramatically change if a $230M payment is at stake for MSP.

You all are looking at DL/MN as a single choice decision. It is a multiple choice decision between MSP and all of DL/NW's other hubs. It is no different than a decision by an automaker as to where to locate a new US plant. There are incentives offered by all parties and the best one wins. In a shrinking economy and a weak industry, DL does in fact have the upper hand because there are alot of hubs that could be shut anyway.


MSP is likely to be a hub because it is profitable so the issue is not even the full amount of money. The issue is the headquarters and what it is worth.

As with other issues I have stuck my neck out on, we'll see how this one turns out but I fully expect that DL and NW will agree that 1000 jobs at NW's headquarters is worth the equivalent of a couple new intercontinental routes plus maintaining what NW presently has.

if you think that is not a good deal, then I challenge you to find some other carrier that will replace what NW has given MN for decades and which DL is being asked to either maintain or pay for. DL's choice to remain a large operation in MSP is not a given as long as there is a price tag attached to anything NW has in MSP.

It is now and will always be in MN's best interest for DL to maintain an intercontinental hub in MSP and I have no doubts that DL will do it as long as the right deal is on the table.


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4487 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (5 years 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6279 times:

Just one more voice to agree with those who say the MSP hub would remain if the merger gets regulatory approval and goes through, but every single job that can be economically moved to Atlanta, will be. MSP is a large fortress hub with low LCC penetration, in a good location, with good market share in its hub service region, as well as a big O & D base. Unless there's some economic factor I've missed, there would be no reason for Delta to close it.

Delta is the top dog in this deal, period, and they'll be the winner, period. If it is more efficient to consolidate some aspect of NW's MSP operation in ATL, it's going to ATL. That, as Commavia has noted, is how corporations work. But if something is more efficiently left in MSP, it could stay there. If the 330/ 787 sims operation is better left there, as some have suggested, maybe it will be. I suggest that Minnesotans pray. And if they don't want the deal to happen, write their legislators and ask them to oppose it.

Jim

[Edited 2008-08-02 12:05:57]

25 Commavia : Your incessant condescension aside, I don't think anybody here on A.net is not aware that the industry is in "downsizing mode" right now. There is ab
26 LAXdude1023 : Yeah DL could move service to places like SLC or CVG, but DL would have to be run by stupid and most incompetent fools to do so. SLC could never supp
27 Jetlanta : Let's be real. MN officials are going to want to ensure a good long-term relationship with Delta. A deal will be worked out. It's politics and Delta w
28 DALMD88 : I think MSP will be kept as a training center for all employees for the forseable future. The ATL training center doesn't have the room to expand to
29 Nwaflyer : Sure MN wants a long term relationship with Delta. But it will not work the way it did with NW. Last time I checked Delta does not own MSP. The taxpa
30 Alitalia744 : Yes, Delta will lose tons of dollar sales. But MN will also lose tons of dollars. It's a two-sided sword. There is no room for emotion in politics or
31 PGNCS : Or he won't. Either way, it doesn't matter to Delta or the MAC.
32 Nwaflyer : I believe you are wrong. It is a single sided sword. I understand the importance of NW or DL to the ecomomy of MN. What I am saying is call the NW/DL
33 LAXdude1023 : While in principle I agree, that may be a little extreme. While I do think MN has the upper hand, MN cant tell DL to go fornicate themselves either.
34 SYfan100 : That I could see happening.
35 DeltaL1011man : This is funny. Why in the blue hell would Delta care if WN moved into MEM? Again funny. MN needs Delta alot more than Delta needs MN. Along with 787.
36 Flighty : I hope MN politicians actually realize this is so. They may be too timid to realize it. Of course, for DL to pay $200 milion AND leave MSP would be p
37 EXAAUADL : I wonder when the elected and business leaders in CVG and MEM will ask the same questions of DL? Or are they so oblivious they cant see what is coming
38 Bobnwa : First off, the MN taxpayers do not have one penny invested in the MSP airport. The MAC is a self funded organization which receives its revenues from
39 Jetlanta : And what, pray tell, does Delta owe them? Delta built and financed its own terminal in CVG and nobody has invested anything of significance in MEM in
40 Nwaflyer : I will believe you that no tax dollars are involved in MSP. Here is the kicker, the MAC is a government entity of Minnesota. Therefore MSP is an asse
41 N867BX : MSP will be second only to ATL in the merged airline, DTW will be a very close third. There is a big difference between wanting to have a hub the siz
42 Nwaflyer : I agree 100%. Not only do you give up the traffic that has been built over the past 80 years (all of the upper midwest). Now you look at moving all o
43 Travelin man : You are insane if you think DL hasn't opened NW's books and looked through every route's profitability and is currently finalizing what stays and wha
44 Commavia : It would be categorically illegal for Delta to access Northwest's internal financial data prior to the merger's closing. Period. Delta has access to
45 Jetlanta : Actually, you are wrong. Such a detailed peak cannot happen without anti-trust exemption. At this point, the carriers only have high-level financial
46 B752OS : You are indeed correct my friend. And those lawyers are loving these meetings as they are making a pretty penny. It is usually standard procedure bef
47 FlyDreamliner : MSP is a large city with a very large economy with big time fortune 500 presence. Minnesotans travel quite a bit (we support a huge warm weather leisu
48 Nwarooster : Richard has a secret. It is for him to know and for everyone else to speculate about!
49 SNCntry32 : I look forward to the day this new 'global airline' has to payback money. Bull Shit DL isnt going to add any more international destinations out of M
50 Flighty : Does this have something to do with Brett Farve? But you must be right, something is very fishy, many things actually. By nature, many secrets are be
51 Mir : NW and DL cannot collaborate on routes at this point, so I have to come to the conclusion that NW dropped the route because they couldn't make it wor
52 DALMD88 : Doh, the cat is out of the bag. Farve will be in the Falcons jersey this season. One can not expect the rokkie from BC to start. He needs a mentor fo
53 CRJ200FAGuy : I own it by overpaying for the food I eat.
54 Post contains links and images DeltaL1011man : Sun County? Yea real relentless.   Really and please tell me how you know this? MSP-FCO has a chance of happening(if CVG-FCO worked MSP-FCO will too
55 Bobnwa : The taxpayers do not own MN nor do they they pay for it. "A job hopper with no backbone". The people at NWA who used to work for him would not agree
56 N867BX : I am pretty sure Richard Anderson was not walking around blind without a cane while he was in charge of NW. I think DL has a pretty good idea as to t
57 Goaliemn : along with all the jobs. If MAC requires the 230 paid back, and jacks up gate rates, you'll see DL reduce flights, and pull everything they can out o
58 B752OS : To say that it's the upper midwest and Canada are what keeps Cancun strong would be incorrect. Cancun attracts people from all over the country, espe
59 EXAAUADL : MSP-FCO has no chance. All the hub to hub traffic can be carried via DTW or ATL. No need ot overfly those two with a MSP-FCO flight.
60 Gsosbee : Nope. Happens all of the time in an acquisition as there is no other way to come up with the final purchase price. Each side has signed a confidentia
61 FlyDreamliner : Maybe it's just that at the 4-5 star all inclusives, midwesterners make up disproportionate amounts of people, but nearly every winter or spring trip
62 B752OS : I am not going to start an argument, but I find it hard to believe you were able to determine during your trips that "easily half" the people at the
63 Af773atmsp : MSP is also getting another international carrier (most likely BA or LH).
64 Bobnwa : And you know this how?
65 Af773atmsp : Look at the last of page of the article in the first post. "Hamiel indicated that another carrier plans to begin some international service in the Tw
66 Nwaflyer : I always appreciated your posts. Now you are a dope. Since when does a government entity not belong to the people who pay for it. That was a very wea
67 DeltaL1011man : Well really and truly it wouldn't cost to much. You have to move the A/C but other than that You can just fire all the people. and in a case like NW
68 DL Widget Head : I've talked to quite a few of my colleagues at NW and all have reported that Richard was a good CEO and much admired. It is the same way at DL thus f
69 Surfpunk : It could be AeroMexico finally decided to operate the route authority they've held for a little while now.
70 Nwaflyer : I count three. NWA, United Health, and Delta. The last two are within the last four years. Job hopper in my opinion. While he was at NWA he saw BK co
71 DeltaL1011man : I heard he got fired from NWA. Not sure if it true or not but I was told he was great to the employee's and the BOD wanted someone who would take stu
72 Nwaflyer : He will leave on his own. I again think he is a good guy but no loyalty. Employees beware.
73 SNCntry32 : MKE, IND... WN, FL? SY is a threat, but, as I have said befroe, they know thier place and wont be around for much longer... Uh huh---and thats why MS
74 DL Widget Head : I wote PRIOR to joining DL. That makes 2. But then again... I fail to see what makes him spineless. So he was offered a seemingly better opportunity
75 Nwaflyer : It is apparent that you have your opinion and I have mine. We agree to disagree.
76 DeltaL1011man : Can you read? I mean really You even quote me saying i hope it doesn't happen but yet I'm the ass hole for saying that it could? Delta could go out o
77 FlyDreamliner : he was a respected CEO while at NW. He was in many ways a protege to Bill McGuire at United Health. United Health was a better gig for him when he we
78 Goaliemn : They may not move the people. Instead, you'll have an influx of people on unemployment, as the market is flooded with people that were going to stay
79 Nwaesc : I've done both, and agree with Nwaflyer's take. Are you sure we both work for NWA?! Furthermore, since when do you speak for me?
80 AirNZ : So tell me, if DL is the truly "global airline" and the world aviation leader in your eyes why then do they need taxpayer funding, in the form of inc
81 Mayor : In the first place, what does one have to do with the other? Secondly, this "incentive" was not DL's, but they will be saddled with it, now. Don't ge
82 B752OS : What I find to be interesting is the arguments and comments on here about who has had good CEOs and who has had bad ones and regardless of people bei
83 Lambert747 : Oh my, what drama, I am sure SLC is shaking in its boots that it does not have the connection reliant services to LHR, AMS, and NRT. Nice and easy yo
84 B752OS : Well said, well said. I too could not see 3 x daily MSP-AMS and 2 x NRT flights working. Just because the airline has merged does not automatically m
85 Nwaflyer : If you think atl is a global market you are the one in need of help. I will say it once and say it again ATL is a medium sized city with a huge hub.
86 LAXdude1023 : Dont EVEN group ATL with markets like LAX and JFK. Atlanta is no where near as important as Los Angeles or New York to the global market (strictly sp
87 Apodino : Hold on a Second. Are you serious? If ATL isn't a Global Market, do you really think they would have been selected to host the 1996 Olympics? Plus Co
88 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : I think that MSP will definitely see reductions in frequency. It overlaps just way too much with the eastern hubs. I only see a moderate frequency red
89 Flyingcat : The flights will move where the company thinks they will make the most money. That means some flight may move others may show up. An interesting obser
90 DeltaL1011man : Well seeing as they don't get any Tax money now then I would say that they don't need it but its nice to have. Agreed You said it in your post. DL is
91 Nwarooster : AirTran is headquartered in Orlando , FL and is almost in bankruptcy.
92 DeltaL1011man : Yea thats right sorry about that one. Replace it Rubbermaid, Arby's, Chick-Fil-A, Earthlink, Equifax, Georgia-Pacific, Oxford Industries, Home Depot,
93 Af773atmsp : Minneapolis is also the HQ for SY (although SY isn't doing so good right now), Old Country House Buffet, and some others.
94 Lambert747 : So you in essence would rather double connect from MSP via ORD via a second market to destinations such as Rio de Janeiro, Dubai, Santiago, Venice, A
95 LAXdude1023 : Atlanta can be compared with cities like Dallas and Houston in terms of how international it is and how global it is. While one might be a little mor
96 Lambert747 : You have a very valid point, however the flip-side of the argument is that while LAX and JFK serve multiple markets on multiple airlines, they are no
97 LAXdude1023 : For the most part I agree with what youre saying here. The only thing ill point out is that while its true that ATL-LON (around 50% last I checked) i
98 B752OS : While Atlanta certainly is a large and important city, as far as being a global city they are not in the top 5 in the United States. Also, the Atlant
99 Flighty : United Health (largest medical insurer in the world), MedTronic, Cargill ... MSP is no ORD. But it can probably match ATL in terms of corporate activ
100 Flighty : This is one of the funniest statements I have seen on a.net. Look again at what you just said. LOL.
101 Lambert747 : Not hard to comprehend. Atlanta is not Detroit or Minneapolis, as neither of the two is a major player as far as intercontinental air service is conc
102 SNCntry32 : To say that MSP is not a global player in todays economic market is foolish. This thread has just turned into a pissing match abouts whos citie is la
103 Jetlanta : Definitely not trying to engage in a pissing match because I've stated often that MSP will GROW under DL management. It is the heart of NW's network a
104 SNCntry32 : All these statements could be apllied to the Minneapolis as well. MSP is very similar to ATL as you have stated in the reason above.
105 DeltaL1011man : No not really. MSP and Minneapolis is not really close to the same size. The airport/NW hub doesn't compare to DL/ATL and the city of Atlanta is almo
106 SNCntry32 : No its not. Nor is NW the size of DL... I never said MSP was as big as ATL. The two cities are just very comparable.
107 SNCntry32 : Also true. MSP is very large for the area. It is probably the only other city besides Chicago that could support a hub operation in the Midwest.
108 Luv2fly : What ever you are smoking give me some. 230 million dollars and they do not want it paid back.....
109 DeltaL1011man : I agree to a point. I think MKE might (note i said might) be able to be something the size of MSP if NW picked it over MSP.
110 Nwaflyer : I flew through ATL four time per year since 2000. I still personally belive that it is overcrowed and not a pleasant experience. Not to mention the f
111 Lambert747 : Please inform the forum in what ways MSP is "the North's version of ATL".. From a reality standpoint it (MSP) does not have the global market importa
112 SNCntry32 : Amen...
113 SNCntry32 : Let me claify. The city, not the airports...
114 LAXdude1023 : This is indeed very true. Its not just Atlanta, but the South and Texas in general are exploding. The Atlanta and DFW metro areas are growing exponen
115 Nwaflyer : I just posted my opinions and facts in a recent post. Read up and put on the spin. To me it is about the tax dollars and NW/DL breaking an agreement.
116 Bobnwa : Again let me point out that there are zero tax dollars involved and neither NW or DL has ever said they want to break the agreement. You are getting
117 Nwaflyer : Flat out wrong. The state of MN bailed out NW in the 90's to keep them out of bankrupcy. Tax dollars went straight to NW for concessions. Res center
118 N867BX : So with the exception of DL@ATL and AA@DFW, are there any hubs bigger than NW@MSP? Is UA@ORD bigger? I think MSP will be second to only ATL in the me
119 Bobnwa : No, I stand by my statement the not one penny of tas-payer money has gone to MAC and the MSP airport. Duluth and Chisholm are a different matter, but
120 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Doesn't really mean anything.. Here is a very small sampling of companies of my hometown airport.. These are the "what's what" of technology companie
121 MSYtristar : IMO, airline service into a city isn't neccesarily predicated on the number of Fortune 500 companies based in the area. It's a combination of factors
122 Jacobin777 : That's what my point was..
123 MSYtristar : I know...I was agreeing with you...in my long winded way.
124 N867BX : Well now that we have cleared that up, lets get back to wining about which city is better.
125 Lambert747 : Lets be realistic, you very well know SFO is the gorilla and serves the SJC market very well!
126 Post contains links SNCntry32 : http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/05/05/hq/ Very interesting article. Its not as if anyone in the state is pleased about this merge, j
127 LAXdude1023 : I took that list directly from my Geography class notes from college. NYC and LA are considered the primate cities in the United States. NYC is the o
128 DeltaL1011man : Ok so it went from a crap hole to you don't fly here becuase its to far away. So because its not perfict for you its a crappy airport? Ok fine I'll p
129 Jacobin777 : .... True....however SJC is still the "local" airport for said companies... I'll have to take your Geography professor on.. We'll make it a "stealth"
130 Nwaflyer : What the...? I have told you it is my personal opinion. To me it is overcrowded and outdated. I have been to AMS (great airport), DTW (best I have ev
131 Nwaflyer : This is a great post. Thank you SNCntry32. When you read the article (it is from May but the facts have not changed). NW/DL are on the hook. And in t
132 Mir : Olympics don't mean anything. Athens isn't a global market. Nor is Barcelona. The biggest international company in the MSP area is probably 3M. -Mir
133 DeltaL1011man : I'm pretty sure that MAC can't just change the gate leases on them. Now I'm not 100% sure but they have a contract which states that NW will pay X fo
134 Enilria : IMHO, this is all about SLC/CVG/MEM. We know the new Delta will be smaller than DL/NW. Is everything getting cut equally? Are those hubs closing? Are
135 Mayor : I don't believe that SLC has anything to worry about. It has always been one of DL's most successful hubs. Any cutting to be done, will most certainly
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