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When Will U.S. Domestic Service Be Addressed?  
User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 9329 times:

I enjoy this website and threads very much. I do however think that many of the thread topics are pro airline employee and anti passenger. Last week I started a thread and borrowing the same language as a CO guy used about collecting a hidden city fair. It was deleted by a member who told me it wasn't right because his Mom was a F/A. So I will try again.

I had a meeting in LAS and purchased a R/T ticket on AA from ORD for 760 dollars. I was seated in row 3 window on the right side of the plane. The agent paged me and asked if I would mind switching to the other side so a couple could sit together, I agreed, no big deal. Once on board our Super 80 we were told there was a leak in the on board water system and it was being repaired. An hour later, the pilot who did an excellent job keeping everyone informed we were told we would be departing soon but with no working water and the toilets would function a a "minimal operating capacity". About half way thru the flight the smell was so bad from the lav woman seated next to me held a hanker chief to her face and I asked the flight attendant if perhaps he could dump a container of coffee if the toilet, he said "no" that remedy in fact damaged the aircraft. We arrived al little over an hour late. I missed my meeting but was able to re schedule. No big deal

Returning Tues on a 5:15 back to ORD I arrived at 3:15, checked in and proceeded to the gate area. At 4:30 an announcement was made that a AA flight from ORD to San Jose had suffered mechanical problems and they were going to use our aircraft to complete that flight. Parts were being flown in from Chicago and we would depart LAS at 7:30. The parts arrived at 8pm and we departed just before 9pm.

I don't want to fly broken planes. I paid 760 plus 90 each way for the upgrade which I think covers the cost of my travel. In turn Im entitled to get to my destination ontime, with water, no stench and all on a working aircraft. This story is not unique in fact its far to common, so common that I think airline employees are oblivious to it.
Its as if situations like this are looked at very lightly and the focus always on collecting more fees and with little to no regard for the paying passenger.
What will it take to get a working commercial airline system in the U.S.?


Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
267 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9285 times:



Quote:
What will it take to get a working commercial airline system in the U.S.?

All it will take is for the government to allow ailing and failing airlines to actually go out of business, leaving Southwest Airlines Co (NYSE:LUV) to become, by default, the Aeroflot of the United States.

As ludicrous as it may sound....we could do a lot worse. In fact, I could argue that we already are.


User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6199 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9284 times:

I do a lot of commercial flying as a pax, and honestly I've never experienced anything as bad as you describe. Delays are a reality of the crowded skies, but as long as I take my seat and keep my hands and feet to myself and be polite to the staff like we all learned in kindergarden, 90% of the time I have a pleasant flight; even security is getting more efficient. Maybe I'm too optimistic. As for declining levels of service and increasing fees, clearly the traveling public votes with their pocketbook and have decided they mainly care about getting from A to B for the cheapest amount possible even if it means bare-bones service, and will sort airfares on Expedia.com by lowest price and pick the one on top most of the time. If most of them cared about hot meals or loyalty to a given frequent flyer program, then they would allocate their business accordingly; some operate in this manner but I'd say they're in the minority in the U.S.


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9266 times:



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 2):
I do a lot of commercial flying as a pax, and honestly I've never experienced anything as bad as you describe. Delays are a reality of the crowded skies, but as long as I take my seat and keep my hands and feet to myself and be polite to the staff like we all learned in kindergarden, 90% of the time I have a pleasant flight; even security is getting more efficient. Maybe I'm too optimistic. As for declining levels of service and increasing fees, clearly the traveling public votes with their pocketbook and have decided they mainly care about getting from A to B for the cheapest amount possible even if it means bare-bones service, and will sort airfares on Expedia.com by lowest price and pick the one on top most of the time. If most of them cared about hot meals or loyalty to a given frequent flyer program, then they would allocate their business accordingly; some operate in this manner but I'd say they're in the minority in the U.S.

Actually Security is not a problem. My travel is based out of ORD and the delays are unreal, combined with mechanical issues.
I disagree that the traveling public votes with their pocket book, I fly with American or Delta, Ive found that the guy who picks the flight that is 30 dollars less, he is flying once a year. I am happy to share these dates and flight numbers



Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 9256 times:



Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I enjoy this website and threads very much. I do however think that many of the thread topics are pro airline employee and anti passenger.

And I think you just don't get it, my friend. I don't know an airline employee that is "anti-passenger". It sounds to me if you're "anti airline" or "anti airline employee."

Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I don't want to fly broken planes. I paid 760 plus 90 each way for the upgrade which I think covers the cost of my travel. In turn Im entitled to get to my destination ontime, with water, no stench and all on a working aircraft.

There is never, nor should there ever, be a guarantee of "on time". The first thing is being safe. If that means some flights are late, that's how it is, whether it's because of a plane needing fixed, or because ATC wants the aircraft spread out due to weather problems. Safety, not on time, comes first. It ALWAYS should.

I agree with you about the stench thing, as that is not acceptable.

But again, if you think you should be guaranteed an on-time arrival or departure, you're looking the wrong way. All that kind of attitude would do, if it was made the top priority ahead of safety, is to get someone killed by cutting corners on safety. Safety always comes ahead of trying to be on time.


User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9204 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
There is never, nor should there ever, be a guarantee of "on time". The first thing is being safe. If that means some flights are late, that's how it is, whether it's because of a plane needing fixed, or because ATC wants the aircraft spread out due to weather problems. Safety, not on time, comes first. It ALWAYS should.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
But again, if you think you should be guaranteed an on-time arrival or departure, you're looking the wrong way. All that kind of attitude would do, if it was made the top priority ahead of safety, is to get someone killed by cutting corners on safety. Safety always comes ahead of trying to be on time.

I think you are completely off the mark. One of the reasons flights are delayed is because airlines do not stock supplies of spare parts in outstations. If something breaks, the spare part must be flown in from another station which takes time. But this has nothing to do with safety. It has everything to do with MONEY. Stocking more spare parts would enhance safety, not decrease it.

Another reason flights are late (especially on American) is that they fly a very old fleet. The average age of their MD-80s is 18.4 years. Again, their old fleet is due to MONEY, not safety. Safety would be enhanced if they had a newer fleet.

To claim that we should accept delays because the alternative is to ignore safety is nonsense. Mechanical delays are primarily due to the airlines not investing enough money in equipment and mechanics, not some overarching emphasis on safety.


User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3067 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9182 times:



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
And I think you just don't get it, my friend. I don't know an airline employee that is "anti-passenger". It sounds to me if you're "anti airline" or "anti airline employee."

It isn't your part to judge weather someone "gets it". It's an opinion, right? And you can disagree, and have your own opinion, of course. But he "gets it" just as much as you could.

I'm with the OP, essentially. I'm an airline enthusiast, and aviation enthusiast in general. Yet, I am increasingly anti-airline, for specific airlines I simply get poor service on a regular basis, and therefore avoid. I am also anti-airline industry for certain ways they collectively agree to do business which I, and many, think is unfair. (for example, withholding information, holding passengers onboard with excessive delays, bizarre air fare rules). I am anti-airline employee to individuals who should not be in a customer service industry. Those individuals make up a small minority of all airline employees, certainly. Yet, they make a poor impression, and certainly seem to be "anti-passenger". And, while we can read the rants and venting from airline employees on this discussion board, on various topics, often accurate and deserved, sometimes we customers get the feeling that employees venting here look down on the customers that sustain their business. Again, not all, and not often. It, too, makes and impression. It's only my opinion, and a perception. I would venture that it's a common opinion and perception, however.

-Rampart


User currently offlineTdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9176 times:



Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I don't want to fly broken planes.

You didn't fly any plane that was broken in a way that compromised safety...that's why you were delayed in the first place. The question is whether you'd rather take a longer delay to fix the optional stuff, or just go with the plane in a functional but possibly unpleasant state. Most of the time, people seem to vote for the former.

Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
What will it take to get a working commercial airline system in the U.S.?

Allow the bad carriers to go bankrupt.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5):
Stocking more spare parts would enhance safety, not decrease it.

Stocking more spares would do nothing for safety...if you haven't had a failure, then the spare doesn't do anything for you. If you've had a failure, the safety aspects are already there whether you have a spare on the ground or not. More spares reduces delays due to flying in parts, but doesn't change safety at all.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5):
Safety would be enhanced if they had a newer fleet.

Not necessarily...although there is some correlation between aircraft age and safety, it's just that...a correlation. The actual causation is between aircraft *maintenance* and safety. A well maintained older aircraft is safer (much much safer) than a badly maintained new one.

Tom.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1044 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9163 times:



Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I do however think that many of the thread topics are pro airline employee and anti passenger.

Funny you should say that, I view this site opposite the way you do. Any time an employee/union topic is raised most folks here seem to think that employees should just clam up and be happy to have any job at all.

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 3):
I disagree that the traveling public votes with their pocket book, I fly with American or Delta, Ive found that the guy who picks the flight that is 30 dollars less, he is flying once a year

You can disagree as much as you want but the facts are facts. The traveling public views air service as a commodity and will buy the ticket from the company that sells it the cheapest. These days (or should I say, just prior to these days), air travel was not a once a year affair for many folks. Your average joe could afford to travel frequently because it was so cheap.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21105 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9142 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5):
Stocking more spare parts would enhance safety, not decrease it.

Stocking more spare parts at outstations would save time, not increase safety. One way or another, the part is going to get changed if it needs changing - just that you have to wait longer for it to arrive if it isn't in stock.

Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5):
Mechanical delays are primarily due to the airlines not investing enough money in equipment and mechanics

Because the public has made it clear that that's what they want if it will get them a cheaper fare.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 9130 times:

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
And I think you just don't get it, my friend. I don't know an airline employee that is "anti-passenger". It sounds to me if you're "anti airline" or "anti airline employee."

No Falcon... you if fact just dont get it

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
There is never, nor should there ever, be a guarantee of "on time

Keep it in the context in which I wrote it, I have to be on time, so should the airline. Its really not my problem if spare parts are not on hand or the inbound crew is late.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 8):
Your average joe could afford to travel frequently because it was so cheap.

Check how much I paid for the ticket, and I will remind you that Ive been flying weekly and gone are the 300 and under fairs which is totally fare given the cost of energy but can I get an ontime flight on a plane that does not repairs?

[Edited 2008-07-31 21:05:46]


Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
User currently offlineAcjflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 426 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9080 times:
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Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
And I think you just don't get it, my friend. I don't know an airline employee that is "anti-passenger". It sounds to me if you're "anti airline" or "anti airline employee."

I can tell you that you are mistaken. I am an airline employee and I can assure you that there are many employees for multiple airlines that do not come to work to please the customers. Some yes, but many not. A lot of employees work for the airline for one reason and one reson only - free flights.

Trust me when I tell you that we don't look forward to going to work every morning to be yelled at by passengers for something that is out of our control.

Quoting Chgoflyer (Reply 10):
Keep it in the context in which I wrote it, I have to be on time, so should the airline. Its really not my problem if spare parts are not on hand or the inbound crew is late.

Amen! When are we going to start requiring more from our airlines? I can tell you that when my flights reach ten minutes to departure I close the gate and you are stuck with the next flight, and yet in the same breath we tell the passengers that we are able to be as late as we want for whatever reason. The market needs someone that is willing to make these changes.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24642 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9069 times:
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Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I don't want to fly broken planes.

You could fly another airline?

I don't think anything much will change as long as passengers accept lowered standards.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAcjflyer From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 426 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 9040 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
I don't think anything much will change as long as passengers accept lowered standards.

Excellent point. The sad thing is that there are airlines out there that offer a product that is superior and not for too much more in terms of pricing but to save a few dollars and I mean literally a few dollars the passengers have no problem being treated like cattle and sheep.


I always have a hard time feeling sympathy for the passengers that approach the gate and yell me when I won't upgrade them for free, only for me to look into their reservation and discover they are flying from the west coast to the east coast for under $250. If that is all you're willing to pay for air service then you don't have much room to ask for amenities and accommodations.


User currently offlineDLPhoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8973 times:



Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 1):
All it will take is for the government to allow ailing and failing airlines to actually go out of business

The US government hasn't bailed out any airline since 9/11 (a situation than IMHO justified such measures). They are bailed out by greedy investment bankers that are willing to lose other people's money tomorow for a larger bonus today.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
There is never, nor should there ever, be a guarantee of "on time".

The airline industry exists only because it can bring people and cargo to their destination faster than other means of transportation. On time arival is a key metric of this advantage.
FYI, I live in Phoenix, 5 years ago if I had to be in Vegas or LA I bought an airline ticket and flew, today I drive because I missed a couple of meetings and had to scarmble for someone to pick my son from daycare because of airline delays. so here is one example why failure to guarantee on-time arival results with loss of revenue.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
I don't think anything much will change as long as passengers accept lowered standards.

My limited experience supports this Hypothesis.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
It sounds to me if you're "anti airline" or "anti airline employee."

Falcon, some of us are here to exchange ideas and discuss issues related to commercial aviation with other persons who share our interest in this area. We don't always agree with each other, but it would be very boaring if we would have.
So please keep things within ther context. The OP may disagree with some of the decisions and actions of AA's management (I am sure that you don't always agree with CO's management either), but this does not make him an "anti-airline".

DLP


User currently offlineOgre727 From Spain, joined Feb 2005, 712 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 8901 times:



Quoting Jhooper (Reply 2):
Delays are a reality of the crowded skies

I would imagine skies in Europe are very crowded as well. I fly almost on a weekly basis within Europe and in Eastern Europe (Sofia, Moscow) and in the last year I can't remember a flight that was delayed more than 30 mintues.

I am NOT saying it does not happen, but after around 52 trips, I haven't experienced it yet. Don't you think that perhaps something is being mishandled in the US?

Not trying to start an argument, or a Europe vs. America debate, I really want to know your opinion.



Sigh
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3197 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8869 times:

We'll I for one think this guy has a good point.

He's spending a small fortune regularly. And basically things are getting run down...and some staff (not all, but some) have got a shit attitude which is basically just the icing on the cake.

I've had these kind of experiences inside the US too! several carriers should have been removed from the market for financially irresponsible management which would have improved yields at the existing carriers, and we'd see a better product too.

Lufthansa and BA can do it. And they've got competitors that aren't as well run and those carriers will either have to die or adapt. But they can't get irresponsible trying to damage their competitors knowing they'll get a 'get out of jail free' card if they go bankrupt.

that's your problem. I feel for AA. It's paid its way it's entire life but is financially week because of US politics interfering. And that goes for staff too...those with a bad attitude...we'll their airlines should go down. Nobody should have a 'right' to a job. That goes for Upper management too. Everybody should have to perform, or else.


User currently offlineSwiftski From Australia, joined Dec 2006, 2701 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8869 times:



Quoting Chgoflyer (Thread starter):
I don't want to fly broken planes. I paid 760 plus 90 each way for the upgrade which I think covers the cost of my travel. In turn Im entitled to get to my destination ontime, with water, no stench and all on a working aircraft. This story is not unique in fact its far to common, so common that I think airline employees are oblivious to it.
Its as if situations like this are looked at very lightly and the focus always on collecting more fees and with little to no regard for the paying passenger.
What will it take to get a working commercial airline system in the U.S.?

You didn't fly a broken plane. If you had flown the broken plane, you might be dead. You flew a working plane, only one that had had a recent repair.

I don't totally see your point; do you wish to imply that you had these problems because this flight was Domestic, as the thread title suggests?? Because that is not a strong argument at all.

I'd like to discuss this with you, as a non-airline employee (student pilot) but need more info to do so.


User currently offlineCrewchief From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8848 times:



Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 13):
The sad thing is that there are airlines out there that offer a product that is superior and not for too much more in terms of pricing but to save a few dollars and I mean literally a few dollars the passengers have no problem being treated like cattle and sheep.

I agree that many passengers pay the lowest fare regardless of service, but definitely not all. Many threads have raised the point that WN isn't always the least expensive fare...but WN has a product that is superior to many other airline's products. And WN carries more domestic passengers than anyone else.

CO's product is generall viewed as superior. They also are a major carrier.

No, something additional is needed to explain the widespread nature of the sheep/service syndrome. Unfortunately, I don't know what it is.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2196 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8837 times:



Quoting Eghansen (Reply 5):
Mechanical delays are primarily due to the airlines not investing enough money in equipment and mechanics, not some overarching emphasis on safety.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 7):
Allow the bad carriers to go bankrupt.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
You could fly another airline?

This is what I started doing. There are plenty of choices. I'm returning to the states on BA today. I'm sending this on free WiFi from a well stocked, clean lounge operated by smiling faces.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
I don't think anything much will change as long as passengers accept lowered standards.

True. The passenger must also be willing to pay for the standards. $250 coast to coast is not realistic if you want more than a seat to sit in.
The airlines are at fault as well for creating the image (marketing) that it can be done for that price.

Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 15):
Don't you think that perhaps something is being mishandled in the US?

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Here I sit at Gatwick, and you can look around and see some of the differences. Attitude for one. Of both employee and customer. BA and FlyBe are my most recent experiences, so that's what I'm basing my comment on.

Another thing I noticed, maybe a bit off the thread and not controlled by the airline. The security screening wasn't done by a loud mouth, out of shape, "in charge and better than you" Cop wannabe. Well staffed, well groomed, and pleasant.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 16):
Lufthansa and BA can do it. And they've got competitors that aren't as well run and those carriers will either have to die or adapt. But they can't get irresponsible trying to damage their competitors knowing they'll get a 'get out of jail free' card if they go bankrupt.

 checkmark  Good thing the US has tightened the rules. Too bad so much damage had to be done to the healthy carriers in the mean time.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineANZUS340 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8729 times:

I refuse to fly unless it is absolutely necessary these days. I will take the train whenever possible. I used to love flying, now I simply love the planes but dread riding on them. I am not willing to risk sitting 5 hours on a plane at an airport or suffering through shoddy service all in the name of cheap tickets. If possible the only time I fly is on international routes although even there I am starting to look at traveling by cargo ships for long vacations.

It is sad but air travel is not what it was. Even sitting if first class cannot counter a delay of multiple hours. I do not who is to blame more. Is it the pax demanding cheap flights or is the airlines and their service, or is it the government who keeps bailing the out airlines.

I am still smarting over the 15bn dollar airline bailout post 9/11 when AMTRAK has only had about 20 billion spent on it in total since its inception in 1973.


User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3522 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8654 times:



Quoting Swiftski (Reply 17):
I don't totally see your point; do you wish to imply that you had these problems because this flight was Domestic, as the thread title suggests?? Because that is not a strong argument at all.

It's not a strong argument to suggest that service is better on international routes than domestic? Factually, it is - there are more services offered, crews are usually cream of the crop, and because of both the competitive nature of the routes (competing not with other domestic airlines but with international airlines), planes are often maintained better on the interior.

I don't think he is saying that domestic service levels should automatically equal international service levels, but you would expect at least a bare minimum standard of service even when flying domestic. I mean, this is not supposed to be a third world country here.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 708 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8653 times:



Quoting ANZUS340 (Reply 20):
It is sad but air travel is not what it was. Even sitting if first class cannot counter a delay of multiple hours. I do not who is to blame more. Is it the pax demanding cheap flights or is the airlines and their service, or is it the government who keeps bailing the out airlines.

I will venture to say that it is all of the above in varying degrees....

I think the degradation of the US airlines revolves around a TON of factors and they are interrelated and independent depending on which carrier one looks at to examine...

Just some factors that don't help that I see...
1) Very poor state, and still declining, of the FAA and the ATC system


2) Underpricing and flooding of market with excess capacity by new starts (SkyBus, etc...) until they fail...


3) Poor Airline Management -
a) failure to preplan fleet improvements
b) failure to focus on day to day airline ops and focus on mergers / acquisitions
(Tilton - UA)
c) Micromanagement of labor / "nickle and dime" employees like they do customers now
d) Poor marketing to entice spending for premium services
e) Over-reliance on regional airlines (independent contractors with bad results - Mesa??)
f) Not knowledgeable of their own industry ("bean counters".. too number focused)
(CO deciding to give XJT back 145XR's instead of 135's and 145ER's back
when 69 planes came off XJT, this was because of higher lease rates)


4) Passengers Lack of Civility and Decorum - The customer is always right? (NO!) A customer is not right about getting something for nothing, a customer is not right about treating the employees like garbage, the customer is not right about the "airlines" bad security people (THEY ARE TSA and airlines dislike them just as much!!!)

It is unfortunate, but things will not always go smoothly in the airline business, flights will be late, luggage will be lost, it is simply inevitable that it will happen. That being said, it does not entitle anyone to give an airline employee a piece of their mind and try to belittle and humiliate the person in front of others. Why not instead give your opinions to the people at the top in the form of complaint letters????

A passenger has every right to expect to be treated with respect and service, in kind though, their is always the adage respect must be earned... So why not realize that the person they are going to yell at most likely had just as much control over the situation as they did and treat them as a human being just like they want to be treated like!

Mutual respect and civility will go a LOT further to help resolve an issue than will yelling, and berating individuals.


5) Poor Customer Service - Some airlines have overtime fallen on deaf ears to the needs of the customer in the way of service. They hire people to be the direct face of the company that, as many on here put it, don't belong in customer service jobs. That being said, gone are the days that Gate Agents could really be making a living doing the jobs that they do... Now, most airlines want, just like passengers, something for nothing. Hiring a person to do one of the most thankless of airline jobs and paying them next to nothing to do it, only drives quality applicants to other industries and leaves you with "rubbish" employees (as a generalization) who have no love or loyalty to their own job. An employee, before they can provide good service must have their own needs met. Does the job provide them enough money or do they work 3 jobs to pay bills? Do they feel that they are wanted and needed at the job? Do they feel that their superiors will support them in their decisions and entrust them with responsibility? Does the employer care about them? If the answer comes up no to any of the previously mentioned items then you will not see a desire on the employees part to put forth a good effort on behalf of the said airline.... This principle was the guiding focus on turning Continental around from the HORRIBLE state it had hit in the early 90's to the model of "service" it later became with Bethune... Bethune didn't focus directly on how to improve customer service by looking at new training or new features, instead he realized that the employees Continental hired were the ones that were Directly tied to customer happiness... He realized that happy employees got you happy customers. (Who would have thought???) Once more "traditional" carriers realize this and act accordingly the faster they will have a caring and productive workforce eager to assist the company in their goals and needs (fuel reduction, on-time performance, less lost bags... etc)





This list of faults could go on and on... but its just an idea of where I see most problems coming from....

Quoting Crewchief (Reply 18):
I agree that many passengers pay the lowest fare regardless of service, but definitely not all. Many threads have raised the point that WN isn't always the least expensive fare...but WN has a product that is superior to many other airline's products. And WN carries more domestic passengers than anyone else.

I don't completely agree with this... I think WN does what they do very well for the niche that they strive to compete in... that being said, they tend to stick with what works for them and not to venture into "uncharted" territories such as getting regionals, hub-and-spoke, and smaller communities (in general).. It is a good thing they don't.. it helps their profit margins... that said, they will not and cannot become a Delta, American, Continental, United, etc... their own business plan will not allow it as those smaller communities cannot feasibly support the WN requirements for service... the day a WN 737 rolls into cities like Monroe, LA I will retract the above... till then, I'll give them props for doin' an amazing job at the markets they choose to compete in....

As far as their service being superior... I disagree completely... they have only 1 thing service wise going for them... employees who love their job. That is a result of their management not belittling and stifling the staff but instead creating intrinsic motivation in its workforce by empowering their people with more latitude than other carriers...It's all around the premise that people by nature want to do a good job, you just have to entrust them to do it as oppose to micromanage...

The general public by-and-large DOES view WN as ALWAYS having the lowest airfare.. they do after all in the media have a term "Southwest Effect" when they enter new markets... but the public fare perceptions are a combination of factors... In general, WN does have low fares, and the adds they run on TV suggest bargain basement fares.. all you have to do is go to their website... this over time has brainwashed people into going to their website and their website only... WN unlike other traditional carriers does NOT interact with other carriers as far as fare rules, interline luggage, and schedule/availability information... that is why when you watch "AIRLINE" WN employees never send a passenger to another carrier when their flights cancel... they can't. By keeping everything off of public systems you generally (can't guarantee always) won't see a WN fare quote alongside AA on a site like Travelocity or Expedia... the only way to get WN info is from WN.... This creates a cult like following and fare somewhat "non-conscious" traveller... It is the same cultural perception Wal-Mart creates with their pricing... they're not always the cheapest depending on the item but you ask people and they will almost always say that wal-mart has cheaper than anyone else... Great Great Great Advertising people!!!!!



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineChgoflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8626 times:



Quoting Acjflyer (Reply 11):
The market needs someone that is willing to make these changes.

Thats exactly where I am going with this, when is someone in the government going to address this. Basically we have good companies with people who start out good operating in a failed system. Maybe we need more regulation and less open skies, perhaps Juan Trippe was correct when he pleaded with the Dept of Trans not open these markets.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 12):
You could fly another airline?


Yes I could, and have but basically all the U.S. carriers are suffering the same problem. I am a very loyal AA and DL customer and really want them to be successful but fear the field in which they are conducting business in currently will only result in failure.

Quoting DLPhoenix (Reply 14):
I always have a hard time feeling sympathy for the passengers that approach the gate and yell me when I won't upgrade them for free, only for me to look into their reservation and discover they are flying from the west coast to the east coast for under $250. If that is all you're willing to pay for air service then you don't have much room to ask for amenities and accommodations.



The free upgrade aside. If in fact there are trans con fares for 250.00 perhaps its time to just raise them. Low fares are often a debate in here, I think a company needs to charge a price that at lease allows them to cover their cost. However you cannot blame a customer for paying the price you are charging him....
As for the free upgrade, if first was not full of non revs all the time you would eliminate the sense of entitlement from the passengers. DL did it for years with much sucess.

Quoting Swiftski (Reply 17):
I don't totally see your point; do you wish to imply that you had these problems because this flight was Domestic, as the thread title suggests?? Because that is not a strong argument at all.

My point is that I am a passenger paying above market price for domestic transport. The system in which the companies that offer me that service is slowly imploding and I would like to know when the problem is going to be addressed and corrected.



Will someone please wake me up in 4 years
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21417 posts, RR: 60
Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 8608 times:

Stop flying AA and their broken down MD80s? They seem to be having a lot of problems lately. And they are retiring them ASAP with fuel so expensive. Why AA has these troubles as well as A300 troubles and former F100 troubles when others don't have as many, only AA management can tell you. For the MD80, it might just be they have 1/2 the world fleet, so we hear about them more. Either way, you can try:

Fly CO. I've rarely ever had mechanical issues. Fly DL, rarely ever had MX issues.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 Mayor : Unless, of course, their cabin or ground staff goes on strike.
26 Mayor : Bethune didn't come up with this concept on his own, he just borrowed it from Delta. It was Mr. Woolman's policy for years and even after his death i
27 Falcon84 : Actually, that's not always true. Airline do have MX service in many outstations. It is contratcted out. If what you say was always true, you'd have
28 Chgoflyer : My definition of Non Rev is just that. No Revenue. This is off topic of the thread but I think that 1st class product would be much more meaningful a
29 Ikramerica : Try sitting for 2.5 hours on a TGV that broke down after a 3 hour trip (but still 1.5 hours from Paris), with the staff having no clue what to do for
30 Mariner : Then I am confused. If you are unhappy with the service - why are you loyal? Why should the government do anything, except, perhaps, repeal the provi
31 Falcon84 : Then you're damn lucky, dude. But you know full well they do break down. Machines, as long as they're man-made, will break down, and aircraft will br
32 Mariner : Aberrant behaviour is a different issue. The race to the bottom means being determined to offer competitive fares to low yield destinations in the pu
33 Chgoflyer : Because I like AA and their overall product, my work has allowed me to fly for the past 23yrs. The point I raise in this thread is a compare and cont
34 Superfly : It has been addressed. It's called Virgin America. That is a phenomenal airline and offers the best post-deregulation, post 9/11 airline service I ha
35 Bok269 : If you pay for a Coach seat, you should get a Coach seat. The airline doesn't need to fill those seats. If they can fill them with someone they feel
36 ADXMatt : Are you talking about the free frequent flier upgrades or airline employees? If it's the latter you must be joking. It's been YEARS since I was able
37 Tdscanuck : Every single air traveller in the US believes that the current state is acceptable, whether they state it outright or not, because they keep buying t
38 Chgoflyer : Please re read my post. I think 1st should be only accessed to those who pay for it. Employees and FF need to get over their entitlement issues. You
39 Chgoflyer : I cannot say how much I disagree with you statments, they are completely incorrect. What choice does the traveler have? Amtrak?
40 DocLightning : The problems are too much government interference and not enough government interference. 1) The government needs to regulate airline operations more.
41 Bok269 : Someone who pays for a full fare Y ticket isn't paying for first. Giving them free upgrades gives them a disincentive to pay for a first class ticket
42 Falcon84 : It sounds like you hate all over airline employees, dude. Sorry, but it's a PERK of working for an airline. If there is no one who is ELIGIBLE for a
43 Chgoflyer : I am very aware of full fare Y and what cabin that gets you assigned too. Please re read my statement. I simply said if there were full Y passengers
44 ADXMatt : IIRC most of CO Full Y fares come with an upgrade when available. Therefore you would be in F/C before I would on a non rev pass. Maybe you should le
45 Burnsie28 : Your not entitled to that, your just entitled to get from point A to point B based on most contract of carriage, of which you agree too when you buy
46 Chgoflyer : Im not sure what the market value is on seats, I just gladly pay what I am charged.
47 Chgoflyer : Perhaps we should do away with tickets and just fill out common bill of ladings, then we could all be freight.
48 PGNCS : So there were actually TWO malfunctions, you're saying? Seeing as how the potable water system and the toilets are not connected on an MD-80, that se
49 Post contains images Falcon84 : Your opinion, and you're wrong. I work for the company, and have worked my butt off for it for 21 years. And I HAVE earned the right to have that sea
50 Brilondon : Your are way off buddy. This is like trying to keep hundreds of thousands of parts at every airport you fly to. That is unrealistic. Yes it has to do
51 Bok269 : All I'm saying is its a perk of working for the airlines. If you habitually upgrade passengers for no reason, all it does is discourage them from pay
52 Mayor : Why do you seem to think that employees shouldn't ride in first class? They only get to ride up there if there are empty seats available AFTER all th
53 Falcon84 : Exactly, because they'll say "well, they gave it to me last time.". The upgrade process at CO is desinged to reward those who bring in the most reven
54 Chgoflyer : I didnt get the paper work, only reporting what we were told Actually I dont think I was wrong Interesting Actually its not my problem, In business a
55 Chgoflyer : Ive have never yelled at an airline employee. Do you think passengers are greeted by smiling faces all the time? Nope.
56 Chgoflyer : GUYS it doesn't piss me off. Read my post. I state that no non paying folk should be in first. employee or ff. PS has been established as a huge prof
57 Falcon84 : Wrong-as usual. His statement is grounded in realty, and what the real world is about. You simply ignore reality as a means to complain about what yo
58 Chgoflyer : GUYS it doesn't piss me off. Read my post. I state that no non paying folk should be in first. employee or ff. PS has been established as a huge prof
59 Chgoflyer : Cut the drama, read the post and tell me yes or no. Is what I spell out in that trip acceptable? a simple yes or no will do.
60 Falcon84 : The airlines disagaree with you, because they don't want to reward those who don't generate consistent revenue for the airline up there, and they do
61 Chgoflyer : Isnt this what your entire exchange is based on? Im talking about profit centers and ways to earn more revenue and your entitled because you been the
62 Falcon84 : I've already answered it, if you bothered to look. But here it is again: No, I'm simply answering your premise that, as an employee of my company, I
63 AirAmericaC46 : If you have bad experinces with a particlular airline, don't fly on it. I still yet to hear complaints against Continental, Midwest, JetBlue and Virgi
64 EA CO AS : As has been pointed out, airlines DO contract their maintenance in outstations. You're correct that complete spares for every part are not maintained
65 Tango-Bravo : Where I, as an airline employee, might be considered "anti-passenger" in the minds (of the simple-minded) is in my insistence that, yes, airline pax
66 Chgoflyer : Cool post and a very logical view. I have always done business with particular airlines because I felt I had a relationship with them and felt the mo
67 Bok269 : You just proved my point-if you give Y pax the seat for nothing, it gives everyone else a disincentive to pay for first class. The reason why FF's an
68 Alitalia744 : The system will get better when: 1) The federal government allocates the proper funds to completely overhaul the US air-traffic control system 2) Cons
69 HAMAD : exactly! when i lived in the USA and despite what is going on right now, i so liked UA and CO. i chose to have status with UA, just simply because of
70 Eghansen : Some of you never read my posts before you answer. It shows in your rather silly answers. What Falcon84 said was that Safety, not being On Time comes
71 Tdscanuck : Amtrak, car, business class, first class, private charter, motor coach, Greyhound, etc. There are loads of options. People vote with their wallets an
72 Falcon84 : Of course you can. Show me where anyone said otherwise. But my point was simply if safety is ever compromised in any way in the chase of a government
73 Pcbm : Yup, you got that right.
74 Mayor : How do THEY know it's full of non-revs and upgrades? They certainly can't when they book the seat and I doubt if they do OR CARE when they arrive at
75 N62NA : Me too! Look at the abysmal on-time stats of flights scheduled to arrive into EWR and LGA from 3p - 7p any weekday. There are many specific flights t
76 Chgoflyer : I would disagree, after-all how many passengers will receive the government style pension that in all reality straps the P & L statement of most airl
77 Falcon84 : "Government style pensions"? Where in God's name do you get that from? Airline pensions-from carriers that haven't dumped them already, are certainly
78 Chgoflyer : Absolutely, three years ago I spent 12k on two business class tickets ord/bkk with a legacy carrier. It was a major purchase for my wife and I, out e
79 Falcon84 : Then you're our of your mind. That's the most absurd thing I may have ever read on here!
80 Chgoflyer : Your pitiful I wonder if SQ,EK,CX take the same cattle car approach that you do.... Face it we are talking about a major revenue source for the U.S.
81 Falcon84 : We don't do cattle car. We have seat assignments. And sorry, but CO doesn't really compete against those carries in most cases. We compete against AA
82 Bok269 : First off, I'm not an airline employee. Second off, replaceable or not, employees still generate revenue for the airlines. Part of the benefits and c
83 Chgoflyer : Tell me how so exactly? When they lose millions of dollars per quarter do the re negotiate debt with the creditors? Perhaps the ramp workers follow t
84 Chgoflyer : I wonder if Apple takes that approach with their customers, or perhaps BMW. I got it GM does and that's why they are headed to bankruptcy,, your fami
85 PiedmontINT : Chgoflyer, you have a very skewed perspective on how benefits recieved by employees (at any career mind you, not just airline employees) work and how
86 Chgoflyer : Your clearly young and inexperienced. Lets set elementray lawn mowing examples asside. At the end of the day airlines or any other companies for that
87 Bok269 : How do airline employees generate revenue? It's fairly simple, without rampers, pilots, FA's, CSR's, dispatchers, CEO's, VP's of Revenue management,
88 PiedmontINT : First of all, just because I am younger than you doesn't make me an idiot. I catch enough flak at my company because my superiors and I are proactive
89 Chgoflyer : The employees are privlaged to work that an can be easily replaced. Study the UAW and Catapiller. Youll get me point. Currently unemployment is at re
90 Bok269 : That's great. I fail to see how it has any baring on flight benefits. It doesn't matter. The airline feels that this is a good way to reward their em
91 EWRCabincrew : You trust the flying public way too much. Airline employee aside, if buying a J/C or F/C ticket is going to get you 'better' (for lack of a better wo
92 Chgoflyer : In most cases the airline had a gun held to its head by the unions, whether is upgrades, days off or sabatical pay they just dont give away money. Se
93 EWRCabincrew : Republican is a job?
94 Bok269 : Whether employees bargain for it or the airlines offer it as a means of recruiting individuals to this job over any other, its still something that e
95 Chgoflyer : Im happy to share my occupation. Im actually from your neighboring city High Point. I have enjoyed a career in the textile and furniture industry. Th
96 Chgoflyer : Read my opening in the thread. How do you propose we fix this? Im sorry I dont get that statement? Also since I see your EWR. I just paid 1100 per pe
97 EWRCabincrew : Your signature is "just say no to obama". Trying to make a little levity here. Apparently didn't work. Truly sorry to hear that. As for the cabin cre
98 IAirAllie : You are sadly mistaken if you believe the US is the only place where delays occur. I have experienced delays all over the globe on carriers foreign a
99 Bok269 : What's to fix? An employee exchanges their labor for compensation. It's a concept as old as civilization itself.
100 Chgoflyer : Gotcha ya! actually I would never put a politacal statement in such as this but was re acting to others in the thread. We rent a villa in tuscany eve
101 Chgoflyer : when you get out of business school.. write me. I dont what to hear from you unless you at least get an MBA
102 EWRCabincrew : So would I. Completely unacceptable. On any level. I would have said something. As an ISM, I welcome any comments about service, good or bad, from cu
103 Bok269 : Sorry, I'm going to engineering school. But I digress. I was merely being facetious. If you are talking about the unions and how to "solve" them, let
104 Chgoflyer : I am happy to hear any suggestions from an engineering stand point. The system is broken, its haemmoraging borrowed money. How do you fix it?
105 Bok269 : Here's my take (essentially what everyone else has been saying): Let airlines that can't compete die out Let airlines consolidate so as to regain som
106 Chgoflyer : I totally agree
107 IAirAllie : This is precisely how it works in the airline industry. Employees are accomodated after any and all passengers who have paid for that product. Let me
108 Tdscanuck : Dispatch reliability is the normal metric. Aircraft availability is actually a better one, but much harder to get the data for. Without them, no reve
109 Chgoflyer : You already give them a paycheck, how can this asset, 1st class seat, be turned into cash that can be deposited into the bank and make their paycheck
110 Chgoflyer : Do you actually think without them the industry would stop?? LMAO.
111 IAirAllie : I wonder how these companies treat their employees? Like assets and allies or like liablities and enemies. I have not heard very pleasant things abou
112 Acjflyer : I believe that the Government stepping in and taking control is not the answer although I do believe that the Government needs to stop bailing them ou
113 IAirAllie : You would have to give them a bigger paycheck if you took away the benefit. You would have higher turnover without the benefit. You would not be able
114 Acjflyer : This is all too true - to the extent that the other day I had a silver member of the US Airways Dividend program approach me at the gate and ask for
115 Mayor : I'm sure all the employees at DL and AA, which you profess loyalty to, are sad to see what you think they are worth.
116 Falcon84 : Precisely. Yes, we're just little pieces of crap, who should be happy we have a job, and should just not expect anything else in return for our hard,
117 Tdscanuck : There are two major things wrong with this idea. The first is that their only compensation is their paycheque...it's not. An employee's compensation
118 Post contains links Bok269 : Yes, in fact I do. Airplanes don't move without employees. Its really quite simple. I think we have all seen what happens when airlines (such as Post
119 BALHRWWCC : IMHO Truely openskies with European carriers such as AF/BA/KL and LH being able to operate internal US flights. Then standards of US carriers would h
120 Falcon84 : What will happen is if those carriers are allowed into the U.S. market, is they'll end up with the same standards that now exist. Why? Because consum
121 Pcbm : Why is it that all your posts (not only on this thread) are so bitter?
122 Post contains images Pcbm : Actually losing sight of your customer is a better way to destroy your business. Group hugs between management and staff may save your a** for one or
123 Mayor : C.E. Woolman built Delta on just such "group hugs". He figured if the employees were happy, the customers were happy. Worked for quite a long time, a
124 Bok269 : What many have been saying is that by taking care of the employees, you in turn take care of the customers since a happier employee will take better
125 EWRCabincrew : It a circle, like any in business. It has to start somewhere to keep it going. The employee is a great place to start.
126 Pcbm : May be a good idea to start with the party signing the check/
127 Mayor : I guess Mr. Woolman did it backwards, all those years, eh?
128 Falcon84 : When I hear someone like Chgoflyer complaining about how bad he has it, and he tells me I should not get a perk from my own company, I find that very
129 Bok269 : And what I've been saying is, that if you treat the employees well, they will in turn treat the check writers well, who will in turn return to fly wi
130 Mir : But then you say that nobody should be in first unless they paid for it. A high paying Y passenger did not pay for F, and so by your logic they shoul
131 IAirAllie : It's not an either or proposition. You have to have a respectful relationship with your employees and maintain sight of your customers. Drop either p
132 Chgoflyer : Actually the companys I mentioned treat their employees quite well. On the other hand G.M. has not invested in product due to their investments in em
133 Mir : Well, it is your view. And yes, it is kind of Marxist. -Mir
134 Chgoflyer : Really well stated, unfortuanately when there is limited capital it can become an either or statement. I would use G.M. as an example they spend so m
135 IAirAllie : That was my point... The ones that have good relationships with their employees are doing well. The one that does not is struggling. There is more to
136 IAirAllie : Delete duplicate post please[Edited 2008-08-03 12:09:56]
137 IAirAllie : Respect is cheap. It mainly takes an investment in time to foster a quality relationship. True loyalty cannot be bought. Travel benefits are cheap. T
138 Bok269 : In the wake of 9/11 labor groups at nearly all major carriers took concessions. While that may be true to an extent, the fact that they invested the
139 Chgoflyer : I totally agree. Travel benefits are fine as long as potential revenue is not forfeited. Respect and Loyalty are earned. When or do you see the U.S.
140 IAirAllie : I know it is somewhat unrealated to the discussion but am curious to get your take on executive bonuses when a company is hemoraging money. I believe
141 Chgoflyer : Good point. Hows it working out? GM sold 4.6 million units last year. UAW healthcare cost were between 1100 and 1500 per unit. The flexfuel route was
142 Chgoflyer : Totally agree. The executive should take the first and largest cut. After all the performance and profitability of the organization ultimately rest o
143 EWRCabincrew : You can make the customer happy, but it will not ensure good productivity at the company. You want an employee group who wants to be there, everyday,
144 Bok269 : Things were looking up until the latest oil fiasco. Both DL, NW, and UA emerged from BK, and CO was profitable. While cheaper, the flexfuel route has
145 IAirAllie : You are owed all compensation monetary and otherwise that you were promised when you were hired and promised throughout your career to ensure your re
146 Falcon84 : Thank you. After all, Chgo, you were the one who said we should just be happy getting a paycheck, and are the one who despises us getting first class
147 Acjflyer : Now, now we must remember that our views are not completely educated. We are not able to see all of the factors that go into discussions. Yes executi
148 HAMAD : as a lot of us carriers might give complimentary upgrades on domestic, or even using mileage or certs, they are more strict about this on internation
149 Tango-Bravo : Huh??? Besides the seemingly endless plethora of non-sequitors you have thrown at us, we now have a state of denial (regarding what you have implicit
150 Mayor : It costs next to nothing for the airlines to provide this service to the employees. Remember, they only get first class or business if the seat would
151 Chgoflyer : Oh the drama. I am standing! Again I will say PS is a terrific source of revenue, no one should be in 1st unless they pay for it. All the nickel and
152 Bok269 : But if the door closes and no one is in those seats, no one is paying for them anyway. So you are saying a premium product is one that doesn't includ
153 Chgoflyer : Not exactly, Im including ff's in there as well. Your stance is very clear. Why let the seat fly empty? My postion is somewhere in that cabin is a pa
154 Bok269 : That's not my stance. My stance is that there are certain people who were promised first class travel in return for something else: Those who paid fo
155 Mayor : I WAS with Delta.....retired with 33+ years. If what you say is true and Delta made more money than any other airline in PS, it is kind of ironic bec
156 Mayor : Most experienced travellers (except for you, obviously) know that employees ride up front and most don't care. They understand that it's a perk and i
157 Falcon84 : Including Platinum and Gold Elites? I want to make sure I'm hearing you right. Because maybe it's not worth giving to someone who doesn't deserve it,
158 Chgoflyer : I am talking about First class fares get you in first, coach fares get you a coach seat. Acttually it doesnt. Ive got a call into Neunan and will get
159 Falcon84 : No, you just don't want to see anyone else get what you can't have, that's all.
160 Chgoflyer : No, do I need to share my UATP statements which will prove that I buy 1st class seats on most my trips. Your somehow programed that all passengers pa
161 ThePinnacleKid : I'm probably more familiar with EWR delays than most people are... and also, to attribute EWR and LGA delays to the airlines as an airline problem is
162 Bok269 : But then you also advocate upgrading full fare Y passengers.
163 Chgoflyer : No and "advocate" is not the correct word. I stated that in an absoulute pinch that full Y go up front. I want to establish the most value for the pr
164 Bok269 : Consolidate, let weaker airlines die off, and bring fare control back to the airlines. But putting ffs and non revs up front doesn't diminish the pro
165 Chgoflyer : Im with you 100% on this... there are a few that just need to go away. Your point is really good. When Ive been in a situation of neg cash flow Ive d
166 EA CO AS : If this is TRULY what you're bent about, please explain how giving airline employees the ability to occasionally sit in First Class on a space-availa
167 Mayor : Who?
168 DocLightning : So when the airlines are so frequency-happy that they fly 40 a/c between two airports that are 2500 miles apart EVERY day, and thus clog the airways
169 Mayor : It's not just the airlines that are "frequency happy" as you say. It's funny that the same people that complain when there's too much capacity, bitch
170 Chgoflyer : These were me next points. Is there more revenue to be gained by flying larger a/c less frequently? I remember flying DC 10's between ORD/ CLE and DT
171 ThePinnacleKid : Airlines are a business... Airlines are in competition with other airlines... they respond to demand from customers... customers crave frequency, air
172 Chgoflyer : It will happen sooner than later if another round of quarterly losses similiar to those just posted are announced. Sometimes things we did in differe
173 Pcbm : I think customers demand quality service.... ill wait for a Virgin America flight anyday.
174 ThePinnacleKid : I'm gonna have to disagree on that one... pre-deregulation was an era of subsidies and restricted routing... AA couldn't just fly MIA-JFK because it
175 EA CO AS : I'm still waiting for an answer, Chgoflyer...
176 Mir : So upgrading someone in Y to F would convince them to buy more F tickets? What are you smoking? If anything it will convince them to buy FEWER ticket
177 DocLightning : You're right. They are. They also avoid terribly congested routes. They HATE delays. Screws up their tight scheduling.
178 Pcbm : This is not true anymore, unfortunately with the time it takes to get thought the airport and allowing for delays there is no way any of us can sched
179 Bok269 : There's just one problem with that-VX doesn't fly anywhere! Of the last 10 trips I've taken (all out of NYC), VX was an option only once-and not nons
180 Chgoflyer : You need to read my post(s). I say nothing about upgrades except in the event that crews/non rev need seats. Im not contradicting myself and I dont s
181 Chgoflyer : I think that the current level of service offered my the U.S. airlines is unacceptable. I am not the only one who feels this way. Last nights evening
182 Mayor : So, how does seating full fare coach passengers in first take care of this problem? Isn't that diluting the revenue? As was said before, if the coach
183 Bok269 : But given that FFs and non-revs only upgrade on a Space Available basis, they are not taking away cash flow. No one gives a damn if non-revs or FFs a
184 Mayor : Well, SOMEONE does.
185 EA CO AS : And again, you STILL have not answered my question - how does giving airline employees the ability to occasionally sit in First Class on a space-avai
186 Pcbm : As in any class having an open seat next to you is an added bonus. And if your seat mate is paying the fare, so be it, your out of luck. Having staff
187 IAirAllie : Nonsense. Yes, security lines can be longer than they were pre-9/11 however one can now check in online at home and completely bypass any check in li
188 Pcbm : Miss Allie That is uncalled for, and your repsonse only addresses 1/2 of my post. Im fully aware of whats "possible" at the airport, the combation of
189 ThePinnacleKid : Hey Pcbm... the quoted text you have in this post says from my post on 171.. but it's not my text in that post...[Edited 2008-08-06 15:19:03]
190 Chgoflyer : This is a classic example of how your industry is out of touch with its customer, and really does not care to understand the very people at the payin
191 Tango-Bravo : What answer? What is so difficult about answering the question posed by EA CO AS (in Reply 185) and why are you dodging it? ...except of course that
192 EA CO AS : It wasn't an answer, though - you outlined your perception of the state of the industry, capped with this statement: "I outlined a recent trip when I
193 Bok269 : Once again I'm not employed by the airline industry. That's not a parallel example. Items are cheaper at the RL outlet because they are damaged, inco
194 Chgoflyer : Im not dodging anything. I will say as I have you have a major revenue source in PS. The fact that non revs and FF have access to that product for fr
195 Pcbm : This time with correct quote As in any class having an open seat next to you is an added bonus. And if your seat mate is paying the fare, so be it, yo
196 IAirAllie : For the last freakin time this is a benefit that basically costs the airline NOTHING. In many cases they make more with a non-rev than a frequent fly
197 AirNZ : I had some respect for some of your points up until reading that. If that's your attitude then I'm not surprised you're umemployed yourself......tell
198 EA CO AS : Oh for the love of God answer the question already! Sheesh! You're kidding, right? You're seriously going to argue that employees being given space-a
199 Pcbm : Maybe not in monetary terms, but in terms of the perception of value of your passengers it does. And quite frankly perception of value is the only th
200 Pcbm : Thats not what I said. And you are entitled to your opinion, the difference is I am paying.[Edited 2008-08-07 03:32:30]
201 Mayor : I think the whole problem is that those of you that don't think the employees should ride up front should just say so. Don't try to hide it with some
202 Tango-Bravo : Indeed non-reving airline employees seated in a premium cabin typically are amongst the better dressed and better behaved pax. If that does not enhan
203 Mayor : Unfortunately, at DL, it already has.
204 Woody71 : As an average 2-3 times a year flyer, I could give a damn if non-revs sit in first class. I just assumed they already did. Whether I sit in F or Y, I
205 Chgoflyer : Ive made that pretty clear through out this thread. It's not a problem really. This a a website made up of primarly airline employees, change the ven
206 Apodino : I am going to try to put it in plain english, but I am not sure that some people will ever agree. That's the problem unfortunately. The airlines canno
207 Mayor : Then lets take a poll. I say that at most it's a 50/50 mix. Read ALL the threads and see if you come up to the same conclusion. This particular threa
208 Post contains images Tango-Bravo : Ok, so you haven't been dodging the question EA CO AS directed to you in Reply 185 in the three replies you have subsequenly posted...instead you hav
209 AirNZ : Then why don't you simply answer the question repeatedly asked of you? Tell us how an airline employee sitting anywhere on an a/c (whether in F or an
210 Mayor : It's simple. They'd just as soon not sit with the riff raff.
211 IAirAllie : I assure you I dress plenty modest and professional (my religious beliefs for one, being raised to be a lady by my parents the other). My point isn't
212 Chgoflyer : Another stupid statement. I met Harris, very nice man. It was not uncommon for DL management and pilots to visit clients based on the size of their "
213 Chgoflyer : deleted as posted twice[Edited 2008-08-07 13:04:27]
214 Ckfred : The problem is that so many people started flying after deregulation that they don't know what a truly good flight experience is, and in the grand sc
215 Apodino : Excellent Post that nails it right on the head. Welcome to my RU list.
216 Chgoflyer : Thats the point Im attempting to make. Very well said. When my company has been in a pinch before we figure out ways to "sell" our way out of it with
217 Reality : Is there something wrong with the service on US airlines? I hadn't noticed. You certainly get a lot and can go a long distance for very little money.
218 Chgoflyer : Yes there is a choice. I think there were just over 7.1 million flights in the U.S. last year. Just under 25% of them departed or arrived late, this
219 Boeing6600 : What are you saying? Airlines should stock pile parts around the country...? If you want to pay for that great! But the rest if America dosent
220 Bok269 : Excuse me? I highly doubt there is an outlet of any designer selling goods for 10% of the cost of the same exact good in a normal retail store. But l
221 Reality : That means 75% were on time. That's amazing considering that you can fly coast to coast for $300 or less when you plan ahead. If you pay more than th
222 Chgoflyer : I dont expect more than what I pay for, and I dont think the majority of the U.S. travelers do. We are however dis enchanted with the end result of b
223 Mayor : I said that if you were on DELTA's staff, with that attitude, you would have been thrown out on your ear. Mr. Woolman believed in keeping the employe
224 Chgoflyer : Who knows maybe we have met?
225 Mayor : Only if you were in SLC. Never did any of that when I was at ORD or SHV.
226 Ckfred : But to go back to my hotel example, in the last 20 years, hotels have added a lot of amenties to their rooms and public facilities. I can remember wh
227 Tango-Bravo : Interesting post... unfortunately, the premise has approximately zero application to the U.S. airlines, the reason being that the airlines, unlike th
228 Chgoflyer : But price is paramount is because the idiots in the airline industry make it that way. His post and thoughts are brillant. Its time for the U.S. airl
229 Tango-Bravo : Agreed. For whatever reasons, management of the U.S. legacy airlines seems obsessed with maintaining the status quo of commoditization, which leads t
230 EA CO AS : Hotels also aren't anywhere near as capital-intensive as airlines are, their operations aren't as strictly controlled by federal law as airlines are,
231 Chgoflyer : I only know this strategy to be tried from the NY area to Ca and it was a hit. Where else has it been offered? The other U.S. airline example Id offe
232 Chgoflyer : No slc. I was atl but knew the head of res for slc pretty well.
233 EA CO AS : Yes, really. Let's look at a hotel chain vs. an airline, then: Hilton Hotels Corporation Revenue : $8.1B (2007) Hotels : 2800 worldwide Employees: 15
234 Tango-Bravo : Which had nothing to do with "bells and whistles" offered by DL which EA lacked. Both offered an essentially identical product on paper and at the sa
235 Chgoflyer : No pal, Im not wrong. You are because you offer not soluition and when others do you just shoot it down. Im curious where were you when the largest a
236 EA CO AS : Of course you are - you said that hotels are more costly to run than airlines are, and I've conclusively shown that your statement is patently absurd
237 Chgoflyer : You used a poor example for annual cash rev. Completely stupid ] jealous? you are an idiot. Yeah cashing a big check!
238 Pcbm : With all due respect this analysis proves nothing and does not make your point. Revenue is derived from codeshare flights and from flight operated by
239 Pcbm : As for comparing Hotels and Airlines, it is a valid comparison if you are saying that both products are basically commodities. Premium hotels have man
240 EA CO AS : Okay - enlighten me, Professor. How is it stupid? Name-calling? Seriously? I'd expected better from you. Yep, less than ten bucks an hour equals one
241 Pcbm : By definition, Capital intensity is the term in economics for the amount of fixed or real capital present in relation to OTHER factors of production,
242 EA CO AS : And yet that property value is, at some point, fully amortized to where the hotel owners only have to worry about periodic renovations and upgrades,
243 Ckfred : That's exactly my point. The airlines and passengers, particularly those that never flew before deregulation, both bought into the idea of an airline
244 Tango-Bravo : Except perhaps for elite members of the legacies' caste systems, the airlines have nothing superior in the way of service to market. The only claims
245 EA CO AS : Not from a financial standpoint, as - again - airlines cost FAR more to operate and maintain than hotels do, and consequently they have to "cast a wi
246 Pcbm : yet do nothing for anyine, you must be senior managemen!!
247 BAW716 : The problem is systemic; however, the rather rapid fall of domestic airline service has much to do with the airlines scrambling to not lose billions
248 EA CO AS : ...said the guy whose occupation is listed as "Executive"...
249 Tdscanuck : We all need to go back to Econ 101 and research the difference between revenue and capital. There's no direct link between the two. Airlines are horr
250 AirNZ : Sorry, but aren't you being a little simplistic here and that's akin to the usual 'excuses/reasons' seen on a.net for the state of the US airline ind
251 Chgoflyer : Let me be perfectly clear. I am not repeatedly refusing to answer anything. Perhaps many just dont like or understand my thoughts. Most in this threa
252 Mayor : Perfectly clear. I think you might want to think about the end results, tho. After years of benefit cutbacks and paycuts, now you want to remove part
253 Tdscanuck : Yes, it's perfectly clear. Put me in the latter camp...I don't understand you. You want to increase the price tag by limiting availability. But elimi
254 Chgoflyer : The correct word would be accessibility instead of availability. My thought is when you want to raise revenue on a product, limit its availability or
255 EA CO AS : The inherent flaw in that argument is believing the F/C cabin will still be full (or close to it) if you restrict access to full -F- paying customers
256 AirNZ : No, I don't "comprende" at all.......and if you want to be ignorant and funny about it I'll even ask you in gaelic if you like! How clear does the qu
257 Woody71 : I think what Chgoflyer is trying to say is that employees sitting in F are not physically taking away the seat he paid for but taking the perceived va
258 Pcbm : [ Exctly, it dilutes the value of your so called preimium product.
259 Mayor : Only easy to come by for the FF's, not the employees. Matter of fact, because of all the upgrades available to the frequent flyers, it is more diffic
260 Woody71 : While you and I might agree that that is a ridiculous price to pay for a one hour flight with no meal service, someone else might think that's a barg
261 Mayor : This probably states it better than anything else. If people wanted to ride in first class, they would anyway, regardless of who else was up there. I
262 Post contains images Tango-Bravo : Simply curious... did you notice whether there were any takers? ...and, admitedly, quite a windfall for the airline who gains (most of) $90 for nothi
263 Chgoflyer : Si yo comprende, ahora entienden multamente. Its a good thing.
264 Superfly : I have a hard time believing this. Seniority dates are listed in the computer and sorted accordingly. It's not negotiable, therefore nothing to "argu
265 Tdscanuck : This raises price, not necessarily revenue. You need to balance it against the reduced sales (if you actually restrict accessibility). I would argue
266 AirNZ : Yes, you could very well be correct and I have thought that myself regarding it. However, that is not what he very clearly stated.....nor has he made
267 Chgoflyer : God your funny, That response is to a person who repeatedly told me 1st class travel was part of his benefits and basically how vital he was to his c
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