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TAM Flight 3054 CVR Transcript Released  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6888 times:

Hi Everybody. For those who are interested in this tragedy, yesterday and today i finally can find some updates about it. The CENIPA is investigating ( with NTSB and Airbus support ) why the pilots apparently didn't cancel the throttle Nº2 to an idle position after landing, causing the spoilers never deploy and the lack in the speed reduction.

Link to a CVR transcript ( in English ) here :

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...t-from-cockpit-voice-recorder.html

There is an article about the last findings too :

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...to-keep-open-mind-in-tam-a320.html

Any comments ?

Saludos
GR1


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineKhobar From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2379 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

CENIPA's Kersul says that the right-hand throttle may have been stuck in the forward position, commenting that a voice not mentioned in the CVR transcripts had said: "The lever won't move, it's jammed."

Why would a voice obviously in the cockpit not be in the CVR transcript?


User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

quote=Khobar,reply=1]CENIPA's Kersul says that the right-hand throttle may have been stuck in the forward position, commenting that a voice not mentioned in the CVR transcripts had said: "The lever won't move, it's jammed."

Why would a voice obviously in the cockpit not be in the CVR transcript?[/quote]


It may be that Gen. kersul is referring to the following line in the CVR transcript:

18:48:35.9 (HOT-1): it can't, it can't.

although why they would redact it from the CVR transcript (if indeed it was said), baffles me. It would be the most pertinent bit of the recorded flight deck conversation.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6433 times:

I can't help but think that if previous such incidents, that did not result in disaster, were properly investigated, this one could have been prevented.

As for the lever being stuck, well, it's possible, and an examination of the wreckage can yield some clues as to whether or not that was the case. But the remarkable similarity to the S7 A310 crash (including the 1 T/R MEL'd) makes me doubt that.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6305 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 3):
and an examination of the wreckage can yield some clues as to whether or not that was the case.

I seriously doubt that the wreckage will yield any clue as thrust lever malfunction or the lack thereof.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6105 times:



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 4):

I seriously doubt that the wreckage will yield any clue as thrust lever malfunction or the lack thereof.

Your objection is duly noted. I (and air crash investigators everywhere) will stick to my opinion.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6078 times:

Hi everybody. About the right lever being stuck, the article says that Airbus confirmed "the engine 2 throttle is recorded in the Climb position and remained in this position to the end of the recording" Also the throttle quadrant was recovered from the wreckage with the right hand level advanced. The big question is how is that possible...¿ is physically difficult or easy to "stuck" a throttle level in the Airbus ? My guess is very very difficult..., but in the other hand, i can't believe the pilots don't set the idle position after touchdown if they CAN...What do you think ?

Saludos.
GR1



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 6029 times:



Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 6):
My guess is very very difficult..., but in the other hand, i can't believe the pilots don't set the idle position after touchdown if they CAN

I just can't get over the fact that both S7 and TAM Airbus crashes had an MEL'd T/R. This can't be a coincidence, and since it's hard to imagine how a deactivated T/R makes the throttle jam, I have to say that it's far more likely that the pilots mistakenly left the one throttle in the CL detent, possibly because they intended to bring it back to idle and then split the levers. The S7 report pointed out that there have been similar, but non-catastrophic, events of this nature over the years. Although information about them is lacking, it does not appear that any of these previous incidents was caused by a malfunctioning throttle lever (or else, I imagine, Boeing/Airbus/whoever made the a/c would issue technical bulletins to fix any future problems).


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (6 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5961 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 7):
I just can't get over the fact that both S7 and TAM Airbus crashes had an MEL'd T/R.

I just was wondering, regarding with this T/R issue, knowing for sure this was a factor ( at least ) in two major accidents in the recent time, with huge loss of life in both crashes, and considering the fact that in a twin engine jet, if you lose one T/R you have only 50 % of reverse thrust, and besides, asymmetrical thrust...¿How on Earth is still allowed to the airlines the operation of a passenger jet with that problem ? I mean, i don't know the numbers about how many flights have a safe landing with only one T/R operative in a year, maybe there are thousands and statistically two crashes are not relevant, but i have my serious doubts...
Can the ICAO or other regulator (like FAA in the US) forbid the operation of aircrafts in that condition ?

Thanks in advance for your comments

Saludos.
GR1



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5827 times:



Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 8):
I just was wondering, regarding with this T/R issue, knowing for sure this was a factor ( at least ) in two major accidents in the recent time, with huge loss of life in both crashes, and considering the fact that in a twin engine jet, if you lose one T/R you have only 50 % of reverse thrust, and besides, asymmetrical thrust...¿How on Earth is still allowed to the airlines the operation of a passenger jet with that problem ?

Well the problem here would be not with the lack of deceleration due to not having the one reverser, but rather with the abnormal procedure that the crew has to use while landing. For example, in the case of the S7 crash, the flare and touchdown were carried out with no problems, throttles were brought back to idle, and then the pilot used the working T/R handle to deploy the reverser, which worked just fine (spoilers and autobrake deployed as well). As the A310 slowed down to around 100 knots, the crew began stowing the reverser by moving the T/R handle forward, at the same time the other engine's throttle lever advanced from idle, causing the engine to produce significant forward thrust, and trouble ensued. Presumably what happened was that the pilot accidentally pushed on the other throttle while pushing the T/R lever and never realized what happened.

In the case of TAM, it appears that the non-working-T/R-engine lever was never brought down to idle to begin with, and the A320 continued to roll down the runway with its landing speed of 130 knots or so.

Either way, it would appear that using the same procedure as on a 'normal' (all T/R operative) landing would make it much less likely that pilots would make such a mistake. I don't know what the logic is behind instructing pilots not to use the inoperative reverser, since it's supposed to be disabled anyways and would, presumably, not deploy if its handle was used. Perhaps there's a technical reason for this, in which case this is something for the manufacturer(s) to work on.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1987 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (6 years 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 5767 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Either way, it would appear that using the same procedure as on a 'normal' (all T/R operative) landing would make it much less likely that pilots would make such a mistake.

Yes, and that´s exactly my point : clearly the use of an aircraft with a T/R problem is an additional risk, and there are two crashes in the recent time related with that, why nobody is doing something about it ?

Saludos..
GR1



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5611 times:



Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 10):
Yes, and that´s exactly my point : clearly the use of an aircraft with a T/R problem is an additional risk, and there are two crashes in the recent time related with that, why nobody is doing something about it ?

Then we are generally in agreement.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 5555 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 5):
Your objection is duly noted. I (and air crash investigators everywhere) will stick to my opinion.

Can you quote a singe certified air crash investigator (not some internet gadfly) who has claimed that he/she thinks that clues as to thrust-reverser malfunction from the WRECKAGE of TAM 3054? If you doso I will gladly stand corrected.

Note the bold-faced italicised underlined all caps above.


User currently offlineLY744 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 5536 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (6 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 5413 times:



Quoting Boeing747_600 (Reply 12):
Can you quote a singe certified air crash investigator (not some internet gadfly) who has claimed that he/she thinks that clues as to thrust-reverser malfunction from the WRECKAGE of TAM 3054?

You can't be serious? No, I don't know any Brazillian air crash investigators. I do know that MAK/IAC investigators went to great lengths examining the throttle mechanism of the A310 that was involved in that remarkably similar crash.

And if you're right, I hope you will have the good taste not to get in touch with air crash investigation boards around the world. They will be greatly disappointed to find out they've been wasting all their time.


LY744.



Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
User currently offlineBoeing747_600 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1295 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 5373 times:



Quoting LY744 (Reply 13):
No, I don't know any Brazillian air crash investigators.

They dont have to be Brazillian. A certified air crash investigator of any nationality that shares your optimism regarding clues from the wreckage will do.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 13):
I do know that MAK/IAC investigators went to great lengths examining the throttle mechanism of the A310 that was involved in that remarkably similar crash.

The FDR showing that one of the thrust levers was out of idle was more than sufficient to draw the conclusions that they did.


User currently offlineScarebus03 From Ireland, joined Apr 2005, 304 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (6 years 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5263 times:

It sounds like it could have been a human factors problem. The pnf could have been concentrating too hard on the good engine with the t/r working and neglected the t/r inop engine.
The p/f may have 'assumed' that all was done correctly.

As to why this could have happened that way is another story,

Brgds
SB03



No faults found......................
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