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SY Seeks Bail-Out From MSP Airport  
User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 3240 times:

http://www.startribune.com/business/...DUoaEyqyP4O:DW3ckUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUUJ

Quote:
Sun Country Airlines, which expects to burn $40 million in cash this year, made a plea for help from the Metropolitan Airports Commission on Wednesday. But executives did not make a specific request.



Quote:
"We're not asking for a handout or a bailout," Sun Country CEO Stan Gadek told members of a MAC finance panel. But he said the Mendota Heights-based carrier needs some assistance over the next two years while coping with high fuel prices and adapting its business model to an industry that's now cutting capacity.

Sounds like a bail out to me...  Yeah sure

25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (6 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 3213 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

While SY has their nitch, and while I hate to see them go, it sure would be nice to see WN move into their gates if they ever fold.  Smile


Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9423 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3191 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):

I have to agree with you on this one Chris.

Is MSP a airport or a bank?  duck 



yep.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5822 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3149 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 2):
Is MSP a airport or a bank?

Now hold your horses, it's not like this doesn't routinely happen with FAR larger carriers at FAR larger airports. DFW and AA come to mind. DFW publicly said (yesterday, in fact, but you have to read between the lines) that the reason my family now must pay a fee to come into the airport to pick me up is that American nearly filed bankruptcy in 2004, and at that time, they had to generate some revenue.

American was granted leniency from paying the bills, in other words.

This isn't that uncommon- it's in everyone's best interest. Or so it always seems at the time.


User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3062 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
This isn't that uncommon- it's in everyone's best interest. Or so it always seems at the time.

The arrangement you describe, where two entities work for their common good, is indeed in everyone's best interest. I just don't like federal, state, or even municipal subsidies/handouts/bailouts, sans a reasonable start up period, where such can merely facilitate a self supporting operation.


User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2811 times:



Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 2):
Is MSP a airport or a bank?



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
Now hold your horses, it's not like this doesn't routinely happen with FAR larger carriers at FAR larger airports.

I bet there was some renegotiating of leases at ATL when your precious little Delta went bankrupt.


User currently offlineAzjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3933 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Sounds familiar... MAC has helped out NWA more than once, it only seems fair to help out Sun Country. Here's the catch though... NWA and other airlines that have a large presence in an airport, like it or not, command the attention of the airport authorities. Imagine a MSP, DFW or ATL without NWA, AA and DL. It is in the airport authority to actually help the airline out. Unfortunately, if SY folded, it would be a tiny blip on MACs radar.

User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6437 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Weren't Georgia lawmakers going to give DL a bailout? Or no, wait...TAX benefits or something...


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2726 times:



Quote:
MAC has helped out NWA more than once, it only seems fair to help out Sun Country.

Not just MAC, but the entire state of Minnesota has given NW assistance at some point in different forms, whether in the form of tax breaks, reduced costs, guarantees, or facility costs. I agree that in some form SY should be assisted.

Quote:
Unfortunately, if SY folded, it would be a tiny blip on MACs radar.

Well, certainly not a blip the size of NW, but SY is still a significant employer in the Twin Cities region.

Quote:
While SY has their nitch, and while I hate to see them go, it sure would be nice to see WN move into their gates if they ever fold.

Agreed, but would NW demand that some non-SkyTeam airlines move over to HHH to use the SY gates before anyone else is given the opportunity to "scoop them up"?



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2665 times:



Quoting Flynavy (Thread starter):
Sounds like a bail out to me...

Its a bit more complicated than that. Generally airports sell municipal bonds to build terminals. The municipal bonds are backed up by the rents the airlines (and vendors) pay to lease space in the terminals. If the airline vacates the space due to bankruptcy, the airport is on the hook for the bonds even if there is no revenue stream to pay them off.

Having said that, airports past experiences with subsidizing airlines leased space has not been good (throwing good money after bad) and the airport might be better to let SY go bust if things ar that bad for them.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8):
Agreed, but would NW demand that some non-SkyTeam airlines move over to HHH to use the SY gates before anyone else is given the opportunity to "scoop them up"?

Can't imagine why they would want to. It is a dinky terminal with only 10 gates, two coffee places and one restaurant open for lunch. It is located in a separate part of the airport away from everything else.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2625 times:



Quote:
Can't imagine why they would want to. It is a dinky terminal with only 10 gates, two coffee places and one restaurant open for lunch. It is located in a separate part of the airport away from everything else.

If an airline, such as WN, is going to begin service to MSP, it is doubtful at this point that any gates would be available in the Lindbergh Terminal, especially as many as WN would require to begin service.

http://www.mspairport.com/msp/docs/E...on/2020/2020_Vision_Facilities.pdf

If one turns to page 5 in the document, you will see that the current HHH terminal will be completely changed into a state of the art terminal that will be connected to rest of the MSP facilities.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2592 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 3):
Now hold your horses, it's not like this doesn't routinely happen with FAR larger carriers at FAR larger airports. DFW and AA come to mind.

Correct, HOWEVER, those airlines like AA, NW etc are FAR larger and bring in FAR larger amounts of money.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 6):
Sounds familiar... MAC has helped out NWA more than once, it only seems fair to help out Sun Country. Here's the catch though... NWA and other airlines that have a large presence in an airport, like it or not, command the attention of the airport authorities

True, and look what they bring into the airport because of their size, SY has really not much of anything.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8):
Well, certainly not a blip the size of NW, but SY is still a significant employer in the Twin Cities region.

Couple thousand isn't much, stores at Mall of America such as Victoria's secret or something to that effect alone employ more.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2539 times:



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 6):
Unfortunately, if SY folded, it would be a tiny blip on MACs radar.

except for that brand new terminal they spent all of that money building and creating infrastructure for that is primarily used by SY....



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2515 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 10):
If an airline, such as WN, is going to begin service to MSP, it is doubtful at this point that any gates would be available in the Lindbergh Terminal, especially as many as WN would require to begin service.

Southwest may very well be happy to go to HHH, but what FlyNavy was talking about was non-Skyteam airlines who are ALREADY at Lindbergh being MOVED over to HHH (emphasis mine).

I still can see why any of them would want to do that.


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2497 times:

I do not see any issue with MSP offering assistance to Sun Country. It would be a much bigger loss to MSP to lose Sun Country, than it would be to cut them a little slack. Plenty of airlines have been helped by airports in the past.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 11):
Couple thousand isn't much, stores at Mall of America such as Victoria's secret or something to that effect alone employ more.

A couple of thousand unemployed at once would be a major hit to the economy in MSP.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 11):
Correct, HOWEVER, those airlines like AA, NW etc are FAR larger and bring in FAR larger amounts of money.

And with the current economy, size does not matter. The loss of Sun Country would be felt in Minnesota for sure. I support helping Sun Country, and any airline for that matter. I wish Hawaii could have helped AQ before they closed doors.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineEghansen From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2477 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
I do not see any issue with MSP offering assistance to Sun Country. It would be a much bigger loss to MSP to lose Sun Country, than it would be to cut them a little slack. Plenty of airlines have been helped by airports in the past.

It certainly would!! If the residents of Minnesota couldn't fly direct to somewhere warm like Cancun at least once each winter, there could be a lot of people going berserk from seasonal darkness disorder and doing rash things.

(I wish to apologize in advance to all of those of you in this forum who live in MN, but my sister lived there for 28 years and it really is very cold, dark and depressing in winter.)


User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

I could see this happening. Oil is falling, but for how long. SY relys too much on once a year travelers. They are trying to change thier buisness modle by offering a frequent flyer program to probably attract more biz flyers. MAC, MSP and MN have bailed out NW how manytimes? I think we could give a little to SY...


Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Sun Country is not EAS, it is nothing more than just another airline. With a hit and miss schedule at that. Why should anyone bailout an airline head to the desert, or should we be more specific Mojave.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
A couple of thousand unemployed at once would be a major hit to the economy in MSP

Get to the back of the line. Airlines are no different from another business that has caused the loss of thousands of jobs. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that Sun Country offers that airlines cannot offer nonstop or via a single connection from MSP.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
The loss of Sun Country would be felt in Minnesota for sure.

Dramatics? Are we watching an episode of "As the Airport Turns"? The loss of Sun Country would hurt very very few people in the grand scheme of things in MSP. For heavens sakes the airline has all of 10 airframes. We arent talking about NW pulling out of the MSP market. We are talking about a small, a very small charter airline that has scheduled flights. Its loss will be a lot less over the top dramatic than ones comments might insue.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
except for that brand new terminal they spent all of that money building and creating infrastructure for that is primarily used by SY....

Southwest Airlines, Jet Blue, and a few others come to mind..

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8):
I agree that in some form SY should be assisted.

Put it on a ballot and have the taxpayers of Minnesota vote on it. Odds are Sun Country will become hasta la bye bye when he taxpayers of Minnesota turn the subsidization of an airline down with their hard earned tax dollars.

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
Weren't Georgia lawmakers going to give DL a bailout? Or no, wait...TAX benefits or something...

Well Delta is a World of importance to Atlanta and the USA in general, where Sun Country is nothing more than a bunch of frames flying to markets once or twice a week in many cases seasonally.


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 934 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2454 times:



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
I do not see any issue with MSP offering assistance to Sun Country. It would be a much bigger loss to MSP to lose Sun Country, than it would be to cut them a little slack. Plenty of airlines have been helped by airports in the past.

Yeah, like NW! MAC has supported NW with savings to the tune of something in the hundreds of millions. Gate fees and such, a good chunk of which got forgotten about in Chapter 11. Though, it was called a "debt"...Ah, found it. $290 Million, though that was several years ago.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2426 times:



Quoting N908AW (Reply 18):


Yeah, like NW! MAC has supported NW with savings to the tune of something in the hundreds of millions. Gate fees and such, a good chunk of which got forgotten about in Chapter 11. Though, it was called a "debt"...Ah, found it. $290 Million, though that was several years ago

What is of more value, the airline linking the city to Tokyo, London, and Amsterdam? Or the airline offering flights to Laughlin. Money and commerce are much better spent on NW soon to be DL.


User currently offlineMOBflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1209 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2363 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 17):
There is nothing, absolutely nothing that Sun Country offers that airlines cannot offer nonstop or via a single connection from MSP.

While largely true, Laughlin is an exception to that statement.

Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 17):
Southwest Airlines, Jet Blue, and a few others come to mind..

Airlines haven't been rushing to fill voids as they were projected to. They'd still have the real monster to deal with.


User currently offlineLambert747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2301 times:



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 20):
Airlines haven't been rushing to fill voids as they were projected to. They'd still have the real monster to deal with

Indeed correct. However, it has been discussed time and time again, albeit on a rumor basis that B6 and WN have MSP on a short list of destinations to serve either in the next year or in a few years time. MSP is a market that needs LCC service, with the detraction of SY there could definitely be an opening for B6 and WN. This is all conjecture until the airlines and the economy come to some sort of stable middle ground.


User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2294 times:



Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8):
Well, certainly not a blip the size of NW, but SY is still a significant employer in the Twin Cities region.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
A couple of thousand unemployed at once would be a major hit to the economy in MSP.

You guys are kidding. Right?


User currently offlineSimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2246 times:



Quoting N867BX (Reply 22):
Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 8):
Well, certainly not a blip the size of NW, but SY is still a significant employer in the Twin Cities region.



Quoting F9Animal (Reply 14):
A couple of thousand unemployed at once would be a major hit to the economy in MSP.

You guys are kidding. Right?

With ten aircraft, Sun Country is not a larger employer at all. They don't even appear on the list of 50 biggest employers in the state (http://www.acinet.org/acinet/oview6.asp?id=&soccode=&stfips=27&from=State&nodeid=12), which goes down to 2300 people.

Northwest has 350 aircraft and 31,000 employees. If Sun Country has the same ratio, that's 886 employees--and I seriously doubt they have that many.


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2219 times:



Quoting Lambert747 (Reply 17):
Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 7):
Weren't Georgia lawmakers going to give DL a bailout? Or no, wait...TAX benefits or something...

Well Delta is a World of importance to Atlanta and the USA in general, where Sun Country is nothing more than a bunch of frames flying to markets once or twice a week in many cases seasonally.

Regardless, state governments need to be tougher on airlines when their poor management leads to them being in a crisis during times of economic downfall. It would be one thing if airlines were well run, but from a taxpayers standpoint, using tax dollars that could be better spent on things like education or health care, going to help out a large corporation that is being run poorly would both me.


Is MSP publicly funded? If so, I would be a little mad if I were a Minnesota tax payer that my money is going to help bail out a poorly run company.


User currently offlineBurnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (6 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2144 times:



Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
except for that brand new terminal they spent all of that money building and creating infrastructure for that is primarily used by SY....

Not much longer, since YX, FL, Icelandair have moved over there and it was often used by champion air. Now if SY went it would just allow MSP to speed up the process of moving AA, US, UA, CO, F9 over to Humphrey.



"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
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