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PHX Closed Again?  
User currently offlineSkyHarborsHome From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 273 posts, RR: 2
Posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5725 times:

AZCentral.com is reporting PHX is closed again with lots of diversions to LAS and others. Really? Will we ever be able to survive a thunderstorm and rain?


Fly CHD!
23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21857 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5722 times:



Quoting SkyHarborsHome (Thread starter):
Will we ever be able to survive a thunderstorm and rain?

Thunderstorms can play havoc with air travel, especially if one comes and sits over an airport like one is doing with PHX right now. There's really no way to get around the problem that the things are dangerous to fly in.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAviationbuff08 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5698 times:

Thunderstorms and Aircraft do not mix well at all. Alot of airports close for a of time to while thunderstorms move across. PHX ia not alone with this problem. Although the problem is compounded by the mere fact that airplanes are not carrying as much reserve fuel as the have in years past.

[Edited 2008-08-08 00:08:24]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21857 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5689 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 2):
Alot of airports close for a of time to while thunderstorms move across.

 checkmark  DEN shut down both yesterday and the day before while thunderstorms moved through.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDL Widget Head From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2100 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5681 times:



Quoting SkyHarborsHome (Thread starter):
Really? Will we ever be able to survive a thunderstorm and rain?

History is rife with airliner accidents occurring while attempting to operate during thunderstorms. The industry has learned many painful lessons over the years and now errs on the side of caution and rightfully so.


User currently offlineDaCubbyBearBar From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5678 times:

Southwest had approximately 8 diversions of planes that were headed to LAS this afternoon. There was a lot of lightning right on top of the airport for about 45 minutes. 1 even went to PSP. I wish I had a picture of that 1.


Go Cubs Go Hey Chicago whaddya say the Cubs are gonna win today
User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6234 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5501 times:

Weather in PHX last night was not good, It was raining and winds were gusting, I went outside for a second to move my car and it felt as if a sand storm was approaching. On the other hand it's quite refreshing to get some rain in the valley. It rains so little in this town that the world comes to a halt when a monsoon comes around

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5371 times:



Quoting SkyHarborsHome (Thread starter):
Really? Will we ever be able to survive a thunderstorm and rain?

Not by flying an airplane into it. It's not even smart to fly near it. Do a Google search on Wind Shear. Add a few airline names to the search. You'll have your answer.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5250 times:



Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 2):
Although the problem is compounded by the mere fact that airplanes are not carrying as much reserve fuel as the have in years past.

Despite news reports to the contrary, Part 121 airline flights are carrying the same :45 minute FAR reserve fuel that they always have been.

If the destination weather requires an alternate be designated, fuel is carried for that too..

The variable fuel quantity is the "contingency" fuel, which covers possible holding, minor deviations, minor re-routes, and flight at slightly lower FLs enroute. In VMC conditions, managements like that contingency fuel kept as low as possible, so as to keep the weight of the aircraft as low as possible, thus saving fuel. The dispatcher has FAR-mandated considerations in fuel planning, and irrespective of management often carries more than management would desire.

The biggest variable when it comes to weather and diversions is timing with respect to a specific aircraft's arrival into the terminal area. Exactly when will the storms hit? Exactly how long will they last? Exactly how many other aircraft are ahead of me?

If the holding times are longer than you have the fuel for, you either "shorten up" to an alternate closer-in (if possible) to make holding possible, or you shag to the alternate.


User currently offlineErikr From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

PHX was a mess last night.

We rolled out to the runway bound for PSP just as the groundstop hit. We sat for two hours on the taxiway in 75 mph winds and thundershowers. We actually took a vote whether to stay out there or head back to the terminal. Whether our vote would actually mean anything, we stay our place on the taxi.

Once we finally took off, about 45 minutes, we started to prepare for landing. However, we were landing in Flagstaff. The pilots actually stated we went the wrong way! They blamed it on ATC. The passengers thought otherwise.

Hey, at least US Airways gave us free water instead of charging $2.

Finally landed in Palm Springs at 1:15am (instead of 9:30pm). 5 hours instead of 55 mins on a Dash-8. But at least we got home:

http://www.abc15.com/news/local/stor...0715d6-28df-4a7d-9df5-061ad4d34fdb


User currently offlineCaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4992 times:

As others previously mentioned, this is not a PHX problem. ORD had one of the biggest storms of the year on Monday night and I was lucky enough to have to fly there that night. The ramp was closed multiple times due to lightning, the TRACON was evacuated for a bit due to tornadoes and I'm told that passengers were brought into the baggage tunnels due to tornadoes. Even Wrigley Field was evacuated.

Thunderstorms and aviation don't mix. We Phoenicians (I grew up in Phoenix) don;t get to see inclement weather as often as the rest of the country, so when storms like this happen, we wonder why it isn't handled better.



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1788 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4922 times:
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Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):


Quote:
Quoting SkyHarborsHome (Thread starter):
Really? Will we ever be able to survive a thunderstorm and rain?

Not by flying an airplane into it. It's not even smart to fly near it. Do a Google search on Wind Shear. Add a few airline names to the search. You'll have your answer.

Consider one certain airline whose logo is triangular shaped. Search their name and "windshear" and start reading.

Textbook case of

1) why you should not fly airliners near (or in) thunderstorms
2) what often happens as a result when you do so

- litz


User currently offlineChumley From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4919 times:



Quoting Erikr (Reply 9):
Once we finally took off, about 45 minutes, we started to prepare for landing. However, we were landing in Flagstaff. The pilots actually stated we went the wrong way! They blamed it on ATC. The passengers thought otherwise.

Looking at FlightAware, it appears that the flight took a very wide departure to avoid the storms. I'm guessing that by the time the flight was routed around the weather, there was not enough fuel to continue to PSP. The only mystery to me is why the flight was cleared for departure to begin with.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...5/history/20080808/0314Z/KPHX/KPSP


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2264 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4759 times:



Quoting Litz (Reply 11):
Textbook case of

1) why you should not fly airliners near (or in) thunderstorms
2) what often happens as a result when you do so

- litz

Let's add to this.

3) An aviation authority (FAA) who wouldn't or couldn't field technology that was available to avoid this.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4037 times:

Did I hear that FLG got CRJ's last night?

Echo what everyone else said - there's no way to "manage" thunderstorms - you just avoid them. 45-75 mph winds are not something an CATIIIb ILS will help you out with...



The GoodDoctor
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21857 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3950 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
3) An aviation authority (FAA) who wouldn't or couldn't field technology that was available to avoid this.

What technology is there that could help an airport stay open during a thunderstorm?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Last night wrecked havoc again on the PHX hub, but it hit early enough that flights bound for the outstation, some still had a LAS night flight to complete afterwards. Watched diversions into FLG, TUS, YUM, ABQ, LAS, ONT, and PSP. The PHX hub operated late into the night as diverted flights eventually arrived back into Sky Harbor and some didn't depart to their final destination until 2 or 3am.

Missed by most that noticed the PHX closure, was that just hours before, not too far away, their LAS operations took a hit just about the time of their late afternoon hub and spoke. Once LAS shut down for a lil while, I noticed PSP had some first timers, I forgot what airline, but a european charter sent an A330 I think it was into PSP, in addition to a SWA flight, CO, AS and Mesa. I believe the winner for the day though, probably qualifying as an episode on the old MTV show "Boiling Points," any passengers booked direct SFO-TPA on US573 with the intermediate stop in LAS. Again, sorry, the terms paste cut clip post photos this that the on and off button, I'm not all that great with computers, funny huh, can fly planes, but the desktop, um, not so much, let's see if the link works once I cut it.

http://www.usairways.com/awa/flightinformation/FlightStatus.aspx

not so sure, doesn't look like it's staying, but US573 from SFO-LAS diverted into ONT due to weather. Turn around, once into LAS and on their way southwesterly, not sure why, but diverts into PHX. Scheduled arrival was 1144pm into TPA, actual arrival was 607am.


User currently offlineMah584jr From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2914 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):
Not by flying an airplane into it. It's not even smart to fly near it. Do a Google search on Wind Shear. Add a few airline names to the search. You'll have your answer.

Also, their have been plenty of really bad microbursts reported in desert areas.


User currently offlineTranceport From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2858 times:

I learned that thunderstorms and aircraft do not go together well while landing in ABQ once on a WN PHX-ABQ flight. To say that I was scared was an understatement. There was a tense silence on the plane broken only by someone one row ahead on the other side of the plane praying as we slid through the sky.

The aircraft behaved as if it were attached to a string with someone shaking it. We would lurch from side to side and then at times it would feel like the bottom would drop out of the sky and the plane would drop and then jar to a stop with a loud bang before suddenly jerking back up as if a string were attached to the plane and someone gave it a sharp tug. I had never experienced severe turbulence and at first thought it was fun but after a bit I was clenching the arm rests with white knuckles and thinking that we were goners.

This all happened while we circled the airport waiting for a thunderstorm to pass.


User currently offlineDesertFlyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 516 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2537 times:



Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 16):
a european charter sent an A330 I think it was into PSP

That would have been amazing to see! I've never seen a widebody at PSP. The storm last night here in Phoenix was fierce. I live just south of the airport and we saw departures one after the other after the storm.


User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Just looked it up, it was a Thomas Cook A332, A330-200 from Manchester. They were on the ground there in PSP just about 90 minutes, so not too bad.

With as long as the runways are, and the proximity to save overall fuel once on the rebound leg, I wonder if SWA, US or any others into PHX have ever thought of using Gateway as their diversion? Now, obviously the closeness would subject it to just about the same weather conditions, but not always, I just would think with fuel as high now as ever, diversions have to be an area airlines are quickly approaching to find cost cutting measures. As I watched some of the diverted flights last night start their rebound leg, they had ground times in excess of their next flight time enroute, so why wouldn't they rather sit with engines off much closer to the field, and with what, I think it's three 10,000 foot runways, more then enough room.


User currently offlineCactusHP From United States of America, joined May 2004, 348 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2284 times:

At one point ATC was reporting a wind shear loss of 20kts.


Sorry, I was on the landline
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3806 posts, RR: 29
Reply 22, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2008 times:



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 13):
3) An aviation authority (FAA) who wouldn't or couldn't field technology that was available to avoid this.



Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
What technology is there that could help an airport stay open during a thunderstorm?

Same question here. Don't know whether SPREE forgot to add a  Wink -or- is among the pipedreamers who believe that the "new improved" ATC technology being deliberately witheld by some conspiracy (supposedly) is the magic bullet that can not only make it safe for airliners to fly through thunderstorms but can also make it safe for two airliners to occupy the same space airspace or runway/taxiway. All in the interest of allowing the airlines to continue their agenda of carrying fewer pax on more flight movements (as in 2-3 RJs in place of one mainline type) without creating the consequence of congestion and chronic delays...because, after all, pax demand frequency -- even more than meaningful schedule reliability.


User currently offlineDingDong From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (6 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

I was talking with my Phoenix-based colleagues on the ground during that storm.

Not very politically correct to say, but one of them was joking that it was raining so hard that Cubans were probably swimming in the water towards his house (while trying to reach land in the U.S.).

Another said that he could really hear it on the roof.

That was NOT a minor storm, even by Phoenix standards at all! It was truly something, apparently. Must've sucked for the crews in the air dealing with it, as well as the paxs unaware of all this 'fun'.



DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
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