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AA Fined $7.1M By Feds  
User currently offlinePlateMan From United States of America, joined May 2007, 923 posts, RR: 0
Posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

Didn't see this posted but quite interesting...saying AA knew planes had to be repaired and they did not fix them. Also problems with AA' drug/alcohol testing problem.

From Reuters:
"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said in a statement that American was aware that certain repairs were needed on two MD-83 planes but intentionally operated the aircraft on dozens of flights in 2007 without first doing the work."

I wonder how AA will respond and what do you all think of the allegations?

If that is true, quite dangerous IMO, trying to make a profit but not really caring about safety.

Another link:
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/

Brian

[Edited 2008-08-14 13:44:54]


"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 6566 times:

American can still appeal the fines, the FAA said. There was no immediate reaction from the Chicago-based carrier to Thursday’s announcement.

No wonder; they were calling Chicago instead of Ft. Worth...  Wink


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6491 times:

Given the size of WN's fine, AA probably came out in pretty good shape.

User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6473 times:

While not perfect, AA is an absolutely safe airline. I would not judge AA by the "facts" in the news media. I see so much misinformation in the media regarding aviation and the airlines that I can only assume they report just as erroneously on most other covered subjects as well. Don't know what to believe anymore....

User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5776 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6397 times:



Quoting Aluminumtubing (Reply 3):
AA is an absolutely safe airline

No airline is "absolutely safe." Complacency such as this leads to loss of life.

Quoting Aluminumtubing (Reply 3):
I would not judge AA by the "facts"

Then you're just as big a part of the problem.
The FAA has already done their investigating, and determined a large (for them) fine is appropriate. There's no need to second guess the FACT given by the governing authority in this case. AA operated the planes illegally, that much is quite clear.

People are under a ton of pressure these days, to do everything they used to do on a lot less money. That kind of pressure leads a person to use bad judgement. Excusable? Absolutely not.


User currently offlineWolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 487 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6383 times:



Quoting Aluminumtubing (Reply 3):
While not perfect, AA is an absolutely safe airline. I would not judge AA by the "facts" in the news media. I see so much misinformation in the media regarding aviation and the airlines that I can only assume they report just as erroneously on most other covered subjects as well. Don't know what to believe anymore....

Any airline that knowingly flies planes in violation of safety regulations can never be called 'absolutely safe'.

Must say I don't share your paranoid distrust of the media but to help you out here is the press release directly from the horse's mouth: http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=10269


User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6349 times:

Then you're just as big a part of the problem.
The FAA has already done their investigating, and determined a large (for them) fine is appropriate. There's no need to second guess the FACT given by the governing authority in this case. AA operated the planes illegally, that much is quite clear.

People are under a ton of pressure these days, to do everything they used to do on a lot less money. That kind of pressure leads a person to use bad judgement. Excusable? Absolutely not.


No, I am not a big part of the problem. I am very familiar with AA maintenance and I can assure you they are safe. They are not perfect, and that would be obvious.

As far as the FAA is concerned, that's a whole different subject.....
I have spoken with countless AA maintenance personel along with a number of FAA inspectors I have had jumpseat in the cockpit regarding the groundings of a few months ago, and I can assure you the "facts" which appear here and elsewhere are not accurate.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6148 times:



Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
Then you're just as big a part of the problem.

Well, respectfully, I think you should have continued quoting him - rather than stopping at the word "fact."

He was referring to facts in the media, not facts in general.

But, while we're on the subject of facts, let's not forget that they are - just like statistics - very funny things that can be easily manipulated to suit anyone's agenda.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
The FAA has already done their investigating, and determined a large (for them) fine is appropriate.

The FAA is about the most incompetent, out-of-control, bureaucratic train wreck there is.

I'm not saying that these maintenance infractions didn't happen, but I find your saying that we should trust the "investigating" of the FAA far more comical than Aluminumtubing saying we shouldn't trust the news media.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 4):
There's no need to second guess the FACT given by the governing authority in this case. AA operated the planes illegally, that much is quite clear.

There is very much a need.

First off, second-guessing the government is the foundation of our country. If we stop doing that, American ceases to exist.

Second, the FAA has proven time and again that a substantially portion of what they do is either false or made-up to begin with, so there is absolutely every reason to question just about everything they say.

Now, in this case I'm not saying whether or not AA is guilty. They may well be - since I don't know the specifics, I can't say one way or the other.

But what I sure can say is that I don't take the FAA at its word for one split second, especially after the completely fabricated political bullsh*t that occurred with the MD80 groundings in the spring.

The FAA is an absolutely hopeless waste of taxpayer dollars, and as such, I am more than willing to get AA's side of the story before blindly assuming that what the FAA says is correct.

In my book, the FAA has basically zero credibility whatsoever.


User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6097 times:

commavia........very well put.

Just some fodder to add to this subject....For those familiar with the MEL as it applies to large transport jets....I have had a few occurarances where the airplane was flying on a placard for a few days. Perfectly legal. I happen to notice that a specific requirement was not complied with. I notify maintenance whereby they either pull the aircraft from service or make the proper correction immediately. Some MEL's can be complicated to comply with. So, the airplane ended up flying a few days while not technically in total compliance. An honest mistake by a honest competent mechanic. Is this a situation of willful intent to operate an aircraft knowing that the FAR's are being violated.....Just a little perspective.


User currently offlineValkyrie01 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6025 times:

You got to comply with the FAA regulations whether you like it or not.


The best there is the best there was the best there ever will be
User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5872 times:

Valkyrie01

You got to comply with the FAA regulations whether you like it or not.




Absolutely.....My point is that there is not a perfect mechanic or pilot out there and mistakes occasionally occur. Fortunately with all the redundancies, things are caught. My point is not that it is ok to operate in violation of any rule, but that there is a difference between mistakes and the wilfull operation of an aircraft in known violation.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5852 times:



Quoting Aluminumtubing (Reply 10):
My point is not that it is ok to operate in violation of any rule, but that there is a difference between mistakes and the wilfull operation of an aircraft in known violation.

Yes indeed, but surely you would agree that intentionally operating the aircraft for dozens of flights and not doing the necessary repairs does not fall under a 'mistake', but is quite deliberate. I thus don't quite see how your point above relates to this set of circumstances.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
The FAA is about the most incompetent, out-of-control, bureaucratic train wreck there is.

oh, please. now AA is the persecuted representation of what is wrong with government.

Why don't you look at the differences of how WN and AA handled the FAA criticisms of both of their operations?

Within days, WN admitted it had done wrong, fired the appropriate people, and put in place processes to make sure what happened doesn't happen again.

Even during the criticism of AA's practices about the MD80 wheel well bundles, AA tried to convince us that it was doing everything right while the FAA gave AA yet another chance to fix their mistakes and to understand that the distance of the ties was not a negotiated item. AA didn't listen and the FAA ordered mass groundings. Only then did AA get the message.

What happened today is not a reflection of AA today but AA pre-April 2008. AA may have finally gotten the message but the FAA wants to make sure there is no doubt about you regulates safety in the airline industry. If you or AA don't like it, I suggest you look into the basket weaving or soap making businesses, just to name a few.

There are plenty of other airlines that are capable of following FAA directions - and if they do something wrong - are capable of admitting when they are wrong and correcting the problem.

[Edited 2008-08-14 17:56:16]

User currently offlineStyle From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2006, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5764 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
oh, please. now AA is the persecuted representation of what is wrong with government.

I can only imagine what your comment would have been if this was CO and not AA...


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

interestingly, CO contracts out a higher percentage of its maintenance but still managed to stay out of trouble with the FAA

User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5640 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Within days, WN admitted it had done wrong, fired the appropriate people, and put in place processes to make sure what happened doesn't happen again.

I beleive they put some people on leave, I'm sure that anyone got fired at SWA.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Even during the criticism of AA's practices about the MD80 wheel well bundles, AA tried to convince us that it was doing everything right while the FAA gave AA yet another chance to fix their mistakes and to understand that the distance of the ties was not a negotiated item. AA didn't listen and the FAA ordered mass groundings. Only then did AA get the message.

I'm still wondering how the spacing affects the safety of the aircraft. After this whole mess ran its course I went out and messured the spacing on one of the bundles. There were a couple that were a little over an inch. Should someone call the FAA and have AA's MD-80 fleet grounded again?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
What happened today is not a reflection of AA today but AA pre-April 2008. AA may have finally gotten the message but the FAA wants to make sure there is no doubt about you regulates safety in the airline industry. If you or AA don't like it, I suggest you look into the basket weaving or soap making businesses, just to name a few.

The FAA regualtes squat. Here's a news flash for you, the FAA can't even run itself efficently. Add to that the FAA cannot be every where at once. The last time I saw an FAA rep was about a month and a half ago. Did they find anything earth shattering on their rounds, no. So when they are not around guess who's minding the store?


Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 14):
interestingly, CO contracts out a higher percentage of its maintenance but still managed to stay out of trouble with the FAA

If that aircraft happens to be at a repair station overseas it is less likely to be audited by the FAA.

[Edited 2008-08-14 18:58:49]

User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5632 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):

Yes indeed, but surely you would agree that intentionally operating the aircraft for dozens of flights and not doing the necessary repairs does not fall under a 'mistake', but is quite deliberate. I thus don't quite see how your point above relates to this set of circumstances.



Based on my personal experiences, I do not believe that AA did in fact wilfully operate the aircraft in violation. Did they make a mistake? Very possibly so.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11559 posts, RR: 62
Reply 17, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5633 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 12):
Within days, WN admitted it had done wrong

That's because Southwest did wrong.

AA didn't.

Key difference.

And since I can already see where this pointless conversation is headed - and since I know from experience that you are tragically misinformed on this topic, I'll take the liberty of not replying to any more of your baited and pointed comments about that issue.


User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

WorldTraveler
Even during the criticism of AA's practices about the MD80 wheel well bundles, AA tried to convince us that it was doing everything right while the FAA gave AA yet another chance to fix their mistakes and to understand that the distance of the ties was not a negotiated item. AA didn't listen and the FAA ordered mass groundings. Only then did AA get the message.



I am fairly certain you are missing many of the "facts". I am quite familiar with this situation and trust me, there is a whole lot more to it.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5549 times:



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 15):
The FAA regualtes squat. Here's a news flash for you, the FAA can't even run itself efficently.

but, once again, whether you accept their authority or not doesn't change the fact that they are the safety regulator for the US aviation industry. You and AA would do well to realize this and figure out how to work with them instead of trying to discount their authority.

Quoting Aluminumtubing (Reply 16):
Based on my personal experiences, I do not believe that AA did in fact wilfully operate the aircraft in violation.

quite simply, the FAA disagrees.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 17):
That's because Southwest did wrong.

AA didn't.

Key difference.

but the FAA, which regulates the industry, believes AA DID do wrong, whether you want to admit it or not.


User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5517 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):

I am just curious.....With all due respect, how much experience do you have dealing with the FAA on a daily basis?

I have personally seen things that would absolutely amaze you.


User currently offlineAA767400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2360 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Oh lord, not another World Traveler anti-AA rant. Someone pull the plug please! It's getting as old as time.


"The low fares airline."
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5466 times:



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19):
but, once again, whether you accept their authority or not doesn't change the fact that they are the safety regulator for the US aviation industry. You and AA would do well to realize this and figure out how to work with them instead of trying to discount their authority.

You did not get the point I was trying to make. When the the FAA is not around the airlines are the ones doing the policing. When you look at the number of maintenance related crashes the past ten years I would say they are doing a preety good job.

Could you show me exactly where AA is intenionally discounting FAA authority? Since I do my job by the numbers I really don't worry about the FAA. Guess you could say I regulate myslef. As I said before, the FAA can't be everywhere. You know it's sometimes very hard to work with the FAA. Especailly when the left hand of the FAA does not know what the left hand is doing. Example, one FAA inspector buying off on something and then another one say its no good.


User currently offlineAluminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5462 times:



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
Especailly when the left hand of the FAA does not know what the left hand is doing. Example, one FAA inspector buying off on something and then another one say its no good.

Yup. Sounds a lot like the MD80 grounding fiasco.


User currently offlineDL1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (6 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5408 times:



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 22):
Since I do my job by the numbers I really don't worry about the FAA. Guess you could say I regulate myslef.

Bravo to you for standing up and doing things correctly. Unfortunatley, there are a lot of people that make the wrong choice when it comes to doing it right or going home early.


25 Aluminumtubing : While there can be no doubt that this industry may have a few less than desirable maintanence folks, I can say without reservation that every single
26 Style : AA767400, Please respect WorldTraveler, how dare you say he is ranting on AA, remember that there is only one king of the skies that can do no wrong
27 DL1011 : Well, I would have liked to work at a place like that. The place that I left had some fine Techs but also way, way too many that would pencil-whip. T
28 FrmrCAPCADET : The FAA is the only oversight we have in the US. I have no difficulty with the fact that they are not perfect. But they seem to do about as well as an
29 AirNZ : Hmm! as a matter of interest the FAA happens to regulate all air travel in the US........and it doesn't really matter whether you happen to like it o
30 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : The problem these days is no trust in the horses mouth to beging with. I wouldnt trust the government with anything.........Thats our problem today.
31 LMP737 : You did not get the point I was trying to make obviously.
32 AAJFKSJUBKLYN : The FAA can be compared to a plane with one wing and no tail. They are a poorly run organization, they manage like it's 1962, their equipment is just
33 WorldTraveler : Which is precisely the criticism that has been leveled about the FAA/airline system. Too many believe the FAA has allowed the FAA to delegate too man
34 Aluminumtubing : You would have a point, but the ironic part of all this, is that some of the most ardent FAA bashing I hear is from the rank and file FAA folks thems
35 AirNZ : No, I obviously didn't at all, sorry. You made a factually incorrect statement which I corrected and which was my point.
36 Aluminumtubing : It is obvious that you are an airline outsider. I can tell you that the system does in fact work and works VERY well. If you were to speak to an FAA
37 FlyPNS1 : Yet somehow, commercial aviation has an amazing safety record. Seems pretty hard to believe that if the FAA was so incompetent, we would have the saf
38 LMP737 : Sorry, but you didn't get the point I was trying to make.
39 LMP737 : I remember hearing one FAA inspector during the whole wire bundle fiasco saying the whole thing was blown way out of proportion.
40 AAR90 : All depends upon what definition of "intentionally" and "necessary" are. FAA has changed the way it reads its own regulations.... and then goes back
41 DCAYOW : Have you articulated these "things" in letters to your congressional representatives? If you have not, I would urge you to do so with a cc to your ai
42 Post contains links TrijetsRMissed : Here is a more extensive article on the issue from the Chicago Tribune along with a video. http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...faa-american-aug15,0
43 Cjpark : The timing of the announced fines charged to AA by the FAA smacks of politics as well. The airline lobby challenges the FAA in court on the FAA's pla
44 Stratosphere : Maybe..But it will fall on deaf ears...We who work in the industry have no respect for the faa they are a joke..They look at paperwork not airplanes.
45 AAR90 : How about we replace the theories with a little reality. American Airlines flew two MD-80 airplanes 58 times in December after pilots reported problem
46 Aluminumtubing : Excellent posting.....
47 A10WARTHOG : quote=AAR90,reply=45]The AA MD80 MEL options for autopilot are very simple:[/quote] That is interesting I have seen most Autopilot MEL I believe were
48 Derik737 : Look at the pictures of the MD-80 wheel well wiring in the FAA's report on why the actions were taken. I don't find them to be fabricated political B
49 Derik737 : I believe what the article stated was that the mechanics did not initially identify that the radio altimeter was causing the issue with the autopilot
50 Boeing767mech : I hate to say but this statement is incorrect, Tech WILL NOT issue a placard to a autopilot without the AMT getting the placard first doing a flight
51 Boeing767mech : This is in reference for the MD-80 fleet only, the rest of the silver fleet you can get a placard without a flight fault review. David
52 AAR90 : None required per MEL or FAR. If AA maintenance is doing this, then it is an internal requirement by AA maintenance that exceeds FAA requirements. Ju
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