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Some Airline Liveries Dictated By Nation?  
User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7930 times:

The topic is not very eloquent, but I can't think of a better way to put it.

I think it's fairly well known that Swiss airlines (Swiss Air, Cross Air, Balair) originally displayed the Swiss red cross on their tails, and I'm assuming this was some sort of standard or regulation required of any Swiss airline. I would appreciate any of you in the know to enlighten me on the history of that.


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Seeing the new Martinair retrojet, I was struck by the similarity with KLM's old liveries. Both KLM and Martinair has a similar striped motif on the tail, though with different colors. (KLM had diagonal stripes at one point as well.) Was there some sort of standardization in The Netherlands that required stripes on the tail for whatever reason?


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Did any other nation, by policy or standardization, require a prominent display of colors or insignia as part of the livery on all their airlines? (Not counting Aeroflot or CAAC, while having many divisions were still one airline for their respective states. Also, not counting small national or state flags seen on most airlines.) I would love to hear from you historians out there.

-Rampart

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineANITIX87 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 3299 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 7898 times:
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Quoting Rampart (Thread starter):
the Swiss red cross on their tails

I don't believe they were required to display the white cross on their tails. The only regulation I heard was with the Swiss government forbidding Swissair to display the flag emblem on the winglets of the MD-11s and A330s. This was eventually lifted, as is evident in later shots of Swissair jets, and in the new Swiss livery.

TIS



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User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2068 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7795 times:

For the Swiss:

They are Swiss! They use their flag because they are just only very proud to be Swiss.  Wink

For the Duch liveries:

These stripes were very chic in Europe in the 60th. Also airlines from other countries did paint their aircrafts with similar stripes.


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[Edited 2008-08-17 23:15:58]


Wer wenig weiss muss vieles glauben
User currently offlineOldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2068 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 7731 times:

I assume that the long drawn-out Spanish flag was prescribed in Spain during the dictatorship of Franco.


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[Edited 2008-08-18 00:08:36]


Wer wenig weiss muss vieles glauben
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 7697 times:

Hi

When British Airways started to put world images on the tail of their aircraft in place of the union jack the new papers said that BA was anti-British. Several mp's etc questioned why BA did not have the flag on their aircraft.

The end result was that British Airways was forced to repaint their aircraft with the union jack on the tail.

I know that this was not a case that the goverment forced BA into haveing the flag on their aircraft. However the pubic wanted BA to have flag on thier aircraft and have a more British image so in way the UK pubic dictated it.

(Around the time that BA changed to the world images Virgin Atlantic started to paint the flag on their wing flips)


User currently offlineThadocta From Australia, joined Aug 2001, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7643 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 4):
The end result was that British Airways was forced to repaint their aircraft with the union jack on the tail.

The only thing that "forced" BA to adopt a standard livery was confusion to other aircrew - clearances are often given to aircrew to "lineup behind the British Airways 757 and hold" (or similar). The plethora of tails made it hard for aircrew who were not used to flying into UK airfields to recognise BA aircraft, it was therefore a safety issue.

Dave


User currently offlineSeansasLCY From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2007, 834 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7571 times:



Quoting Thadocta (Reply 5):
The only thing that "forced" BA to adopt a standard livery was confusion to other aircrew

The famous incident with Margaret Thatcher and the handkerchief didn't really help the BA tails.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7460 times:
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The PNM Government of Trinidad and Tobago placed their symbol, the balisier, on one of the tails of a BW Dash-8 causing a political backlash, which forced BW to remove the balisier from the tail of the Dash-8.



The Government of Barbados is also not satisfied with the flights that Caribbean Airlines operates into Barbados. Thus they will not permit any Trinidadian registered aircraft the right to place a slogan pertaining to Barbados on a BW aircraft.

9Y-BGI:



[Edited 2008-08-18 04:06:37]

User currently offlineTN757Flyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7282 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 6):

The famous incident with Margaret Thatcher and the handkerchief didn't really help the BA tails.

IMO, BA should have never dumped the Landor livery. It looked more "British" than the current Union Jack swoosh. I'm probably one of only 27 people on the planet that actually liked the world tails, but still miss the old crown on the tail. That was a regal, classy livery.


User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7166 times:



Quoting Rampart (Thread starter):
Seeing the new Martinair retrojet, I was struck by the similarity with KLM's old liveries. Both KLM and Martinair has a similar striped motif on the tail, though with different colors. (KLM had diagonal stripes at one point as well.) Was there some sort of standardization in The Netherlands that required stripes on the tail for whatever reason?

Just fashion!


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By the way, KLM first had diagonal stripes and later horizontals:


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Transavia did the same:


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The old Martinair (MAC Martin's Air Charter)


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Fashion even outside Europe:


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http://home.arcor.de/ulrichhoppe/HC-ANQ.JPG


User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7113 times:

These liveries are surely dictated by the state; Air Koryo, Cubana and Aeroflot


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User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7061 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 4):
When British Airways started to put world images on the tail of their aircraft in place of the union jack the new papers said that BA was anti-British. Several mp's etc questioned why BA did not have the flag on their aircraft.

The end result was that British Airways was forced to repaint their aircraft with the union jack on the tail.

Yes, but I don't recall any era when ALL British airlines incorporated a similar livery element, as all Swiss airlines have. The Union Jack episode with BA was an interesting debate over their use of the flag, but it was their marketing idea alone. British (Jersey) European (FlyBe), BMI, Easy Jet, and Monarch never had to adopt a similar livery element.

Quoting OwlEye (Reply 9):
Just fashion!



Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 2):
These stripes were very chic in Europe in the 60th. Also airlines from other countries did paint their aircrafts with similar stripes.

Thanks for that, OwlEye and Oldeuropean. Stripes were the thing back then, I guess!

Quoting OwlEye (Reply 10):
These liveries are surely dictated by the state; Air Koryo, Cubana and Aeroflot

With one-airline countries (Trinidad, USSR, Cuba), the national motif or color is present in their respective airlines, but what I was wondering is if multiple airlines from a single country had a common motif, like Switzerland had. The Spanish example above is closer to what I was thinking. Aeroflot is sort of odd, while it was one airline, it still had multiple divisions and regions that retained the similar color scheme. So I guess it does fit my question.

-Rampart


User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 7050 times:



Quoting Richcandy (Reply 4):
When British Airways started to put world images on the tail of their aircraft in place of the union jack the new papers said that BA was anti-British. Several mp's etc questioned why BA did not have the flag on their aircraft.

The end result was that British Airways was forced to repaint their aircraft with the union jack on the tail.

Yes, but I don't recall any era when ALL British airlines incorporated a similar livery element, as all Swiss airlines have. The Union Jack episode with BA was an interesting debate over their use of the flag, but it was their marketing idea alone. British (Jersey) European (FlyBe), BMI, Easy Jet, and Monarch never had to adopt a similar livery element.

Quoting OwlEye (Reply 9):
Just fashion!



Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 2):
These stripes were very chic in Europe in the 60th. Also airlines from other countries did paint their aircrafts with similar stripes.

Thanks for that, OwlEye and Oldeuropean. Stripes were the thing back then, I guess!

Quoting OwlEye (Reply 10):
These liveries are surely dictated by the state; Air Koryo, Cubana and Aeroflot

With one-airline countries (Trinidad, USSR, Cuba), the national motif or color is present in their respective airlines, but what I was wondering is if multiple airlines from a single country had a common motif, like Switzerland had. The Spanish example above is closer to what I was thinking. Aeroflot is sort of odd, while it was one airline, it still had multiple divisions and regions that retained the similar color scheme. So I guess it does fit my question.

-Rampart


User currently offlineAndz From South Africa, joined Feb 2004, 8440 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6983 times:
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Quoting Richcandy (Reply 4):
the pubic

I love typos  Smile

SAA's historic flight aircraft were forced to carry the new South African flag which to me kills the authenticity of the old livery.


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After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7363 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6914 times:



Quoting Thadocta (Reply 5):
The only thing that "forced" BA to adopt a standard livery was confusion to other aircrew - clearances are often given to aircrew to "lineup behind the British Airways 757 and hold" (or similar). The plethora of tails made it hard for aircrew who were not used to flying into UK airfields to recognise BA aircraft, it was therefore a safety issue.

I am sorry but this is a total myth. Thjere is no requirement by bodies such as the FAA or CAA that requires any airline to adopt defined livery characteristics for a "safety issue". Indeed today there are many airlines around the world that fly with different tails on their aircraft. Here is just one:

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Clearly if BA had been made to change their livery because their tails were different, PIA and other airlines would not have been allowed to subsequently go down the same route,

The actual story of the BA Union Flag livery is as follows:

All of the BA Concorde fleet were painted in what is variously known as their Union Flag or Chatham Historic Dockyard livery following the announceent of BA World Images on 12 June 1997.

The tails were not well recived by the British media or, as noted above, by former Prime Minister Thatcher.

In April 1999 HM Queen Elizabeth was due to travel on a State Visit to Korea. On St George's Day that month BA rolled out the 763 (G-BNWR) that had just been adapted to fly her on that visit. It was wearing an adapted version of the Concorde Union Flag livery that has now become the standard BA livery across its entire fleet.

This aircraft was greeted by the British media with many plaudits, particularly as the aircraft was to carry the Queen. It proved to be a publicity coup for BA.

In May 1999 I learned during a personal conversation with a senior BA manager that BA planned to paint six subsonic aircraft in this Union Flag livery. Apparently two aircraft of each of three different types had been selected for this treatment. By the time of that conversation a second 763 had already been rolled out in the Union Flag livery, It was quickly followed by two 752s.

What the third type was I do not know but would guess it would have been the 744. This is because on 6 June 1999, following the positive reaction to the Queen's aircraft, BA announced publicly that in future all BA aircraft would be painted in the Union Flag livery.

The myth over the change being for ATC reasons did not start doing the rounds until sometime later.

Moving back to the central subject, I have noted that all the German registered aircraft I have seen are painted with the German flag. This includes the Airbus aircraft painted in their non-German airline liveries when still carrying their German test registrations. As an example here are two different BA 321s painted with the Union Flag tail but carrying the German flag alongside their registration marks:

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However 320s carrying their French test registration do not also carry the French Tricolor.


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 15, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6885 times:

There is no law in Switzerland that airlines have to have to flag on the tail. They only do it because they think that the Swiss flag is well known and a good "brand". As I know only a small flag near the registration is required.

User currently offlineRampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6800 times:



Quoting ZRH (Reply 15):
There is no law in Switzerland that airlines have to have to flag on the tail. They only do it because they think that the Swiss flag is well known and a good "brand". As I know only a small flag near the registration is required.

If that is the case presently, was it also the case in the past (before 1990)? I can see the value in associating with the Swiss flag, but at least 3 separate carriers had identical tails, which as far as branding does not do much for differentiation. Not doubting you at all, but I do think it's interesting. Flag branding is relatively common (Finnair, South African, BEA, BA, USAir, JAL, Aeroflot, etc.), but usually not every airline in the country follows that tendency.

-Rampart


User currently offlineZRH From Switzerland, joined Nov 1999, 5566 posts, RR: 36
Reply 17, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6514 times:



Quoting Rampart (Reply 16):
If that is the case presently, was it also the case in the past (before 1990)?

I don't know if it was before but in our days there are enough examples without flag: Hello, Helvetic (old livery), Edelweiss, Flybaboo and others:

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User currently offlinePlaneInsomniac From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 661 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6492 times:

Speaking of which - all US registered airliners seem to display the US flag (often next to the registration), and in the "official" (military-style) manner, i.e., mirrored when seen from the right hand side. Is this some legal requirement or voluntary?

Similar customs seem to be in place in other countries, e.g., Germany, but not everywhere.

AA - flag on the tail:


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DL - flag next to reg:


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Air Berlin - flag next to reg:


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AC - no flag visible:


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Olympic - no flag:


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Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4741 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6409 times:



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 18):
Olympic - no flag:

Olympic does have the flag on the a/c near the front door, connected to the EU flag.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineCYatUK From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 810 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6391 times:



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 18):
Olympic - no flag:

Actually the flag next to the EU flag is one of the older versions of the Greek flag.



CY@Uk
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26795 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6377 times:



Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 19):
Olympic does have the flag on the a/c near the front door, connected to the EU flag.

Correct and right  checkmark 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Greece This explains the variation.


User currently offlineOwlEye From Netherlands, joined Feb 2006, 957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6003 times:

I can imagine this livery was ordered by the state of Brunei:


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User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 23, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5995 times:



Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 18):
Speaking of which - all US registered airliners seem to display the US flag (often next to the registration), and in the "official" (military-style) manner, i.e., mirrored when seen from the right hand side. Is this some legal requirement or voluntary?

That part is required, and the US flag has to be displayed in the "official" style anywhere it is displayed as itself.

Stylized representations, like US' livery, don't have to be displayed correctly, because its not actually the flag.

NS


User currently offline8B775ZQ From St. Kitts and Nevis, joined Aug 2005, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (5 years 10 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 5875 times:



Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 6):
The PNM Government of Trinidad and Tobago placed their symbol, the balisier, on one of the tails of a BW Dash-8 causing a political backlash, which forced BW to remove the balisier from the tail of the Dash-8.

The Gov. of T&T did not place their symbol on the tail of the aircraft. The Basilier is a symbol of the ruling party but Caribbean Airlines is privately owned and operated and not a Govt. entitity like the old BW.
The tail in question did cause an uproar in the nation however as it was seen as partisan politics.


25 Post contains images Viscount724 : I think it used to be a requirement, but not in recent years. Looking at photos, I would guess the rule changed sometime in the early 1990s. You stil
26 Post contains images AerLingus747 : Can anybody explain why easyjet only have the EU flag.
27 OA260 : Funny you say that , I noticed it at LGW the other day and was wondering the same thing.
28 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Probably because many of their flights don't go anywhere near the UK. The A319s of their GVA-based Swiss-registered subsidiary Easyjet Switzerland ha
29 Gigneil : In EU countries, that's an acceptable display of registration. Just like license plates generally just have the EU flag now. NS
30 V1valarob : Agreed. Whenever they tell us to taxi behind another aircraft they normally just say "Behind the embraer, airbus, etc.." If we cant tell the differen
31 Post contains links and images Jalapeno : Here we have the turtle both on the flag and the livery, with national colors as well. View Large View MediumPhoto © Snorre - VAP
32 Jeffrey1970 : Nope, your one of 28 people who loved that livery. I loved it too. I also loved the old Pan Am livery, and the TWA one from the 70's.
33 EICVD : But dont FR have the Irish flag on their a/c. Many of there flights dont come anywhere near Ireland.
34 Post contains links and images TransIsland : Cuba is a one-airline country? View Large View MediumPhoto © Stephen B. Aranha And I am not even certain that this is the end...
35 Qantas744ER : Funny story regarding FL. A while back the Air Tran CEO was asked why their planes did not display the US flag like most other major US airlines, he
36 Tissandier : Quoting ZRH (Reply 17): Quoting Rampart (Reply 16): If that is the case presently, was it also the case in the past (before 1990)? I don't know if it
37 Sr100 : Acutally it was required by the Federal Office for Aviation to display the Swiss flag on all air vehicles, which is no longer the case. This was vali
38 Rampart : I stand corrected, thanks. I should have known to double check that. Thus, Cuba is not a country that satisfies my original question. Cubana's livery
39 Wolflair : As far as I am aware, many authorities in charge of registering aircraft do have the requeriment of the corresponding flag being displayed somewhere i
40 AirNZ : British Airways have never had the Union Flag on the tail of their aircraft.......how many times must this be pointed out? Eh? Are you sure you know
41 EICVD : Then why dont U2 have the union jack instead of the EU flag?
42 Antonovman : Probably cos theyre owned by a greek guy
43 Viscount724 : Sorry, I don't understand your question. Easyjet have hubs all over Europe and many of their flights operate between two cities in continental Europe
44 Viscount724 : I think he's Cypriot.
45 VV701 : I guess the first people you should try yo convince is BA themselves. They certainly think that they paint the Union Flag on the tails of their aircr
46 EICVD : Now that does make sense.
47 SCL767 : BW is not privately owned.
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